Bob White

But OGE, The program has never been a local professional's responsibility. We (local volunteers) hired them to find bodies and raise funds because we wanted to have time to do the program and work with the scouts. The local professionals have to be accountable for their income. What are they measured on? Money, manpower and membership determine if they continue to draw a paycheck to feed their families and pay their bills. Who set those standards? A committee of volunteers. At your place of employment do you do the work you were hired to do and the work your boss expects of you, or do you do anything anyone thinks you should be doing? We cannot hire and evalute pro scouters on one set of criteria and them expect them to be doing something completely different (our jobs) instead. The DE at at CubsRgr8 meeting talked about finances because that's his job. The other topics CubsRgr8 mentioned (dates for training, summer camp, district/council activities, etc.) are the responsibility of the volunteer District Committee if they weren't there fulfilling their responsibilities than shame on them. The DE should not be slammed for doing his job. If there is a misunderstanding in your scouting community it is the volunteer's job to correct it. The District Committee members, Training teams, Commissioner Services staff, Activities committee etc., need to let people know that the program is not the DE's job it is theirs. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Where the miconception in this string lies (and with all due respect to my cyber friend OGE) is the premise that District Executives are responsible for the quality of the local program. They are not! Local professionals are responsible for the financial health, and the growth of youth and adult membership in the council. WE, the local volunteers are responsible for the quality of the local program. That has been our responsibility since 1910. There are professionals on the national level who sit on volunteer committees as the professional advisors. Their role is to help the committee chairperson and to implement the decisions of the committee. This is a program designed and carried out by volunteers. We hire a paid staff to do the daily leg work to maintain the infra-structure needed for the continued operation of the program. But when you complain about the way THEY run scouting, keep in mind that THEY is YOU. Bob White

I believe you will find a plan in the Cub How-TO Book as well. Bob

The problem OGE is that scout professionals do not make these decisions. The committees that make decisions in the BSA on things like uniform, advancement, awards, policies, training etc., are composed of adult volunteers and youth members. The professionals are responsible for implementing the changes not determining the changes. If you want to lay blame you need to know where to lay it. In addition the premise that the BSA wants boys to buy a new hat every year is faulty. In all levels of basic leader training the BSA syllabii stresses ways that packs can set up uniform exchanges, and ways to purchase uniforms at a discount. If their goal was to continue to sell more new product what would be the point of sharing or suggesting alternate methods for all trained leaders to know and pass along? The reason for the uniform change is linked to the social needs of youth at this stage of their development. They want to have ways to display their growth and graduation from one level to another. For that reason steps were taken to make cub advancement more obvious than just the addition of a new badge. It is a uniform element that stems from understanding the needs and characteristics of the age group. Bob White

Venturer2002, As a member of the BSA your only uniform options for foriegn items are, neckerchiefs, and activity patches for events you have attended. Answers to these and other uniform questions are found in the BSA Insignia Guide available at your local Council Service Center. Bob White

Venturer2002, As a member of the BSA your only uniform options for foriegn items are, neckerchiefs, and activity patches for events you have attended. Answers to these and other uniform questions are found in the BSA Insignia Guide available at your local Council Service Center. Bob White

That can be a problem, and that is why they need an active Troop guide. The TG leads them individually and in a few cases as a group through these points. Bob

Where we differ I believe is in the the definition of "doing the best I can". To many of the posters experiencing a high drop off rate that translates to "doing it my way the best I can" Not "following the program the best I can". besides it shouldn';t be an I statement. if you are indeed following the program this should be plural. Bob

Sounds like they are off to a good start. Some suggestions I would make however....Have patrol leaders rotate every 30 days as the handbook recommends. The reason for this is to give each Pl a chance to attend a PLC and see how the troop decisions are made. It also gives the guide an opportunity to explain and guide each new scout through some basic leadership skills. Then after a year when the patrol has its first real election they have some expose to each scout as a PL and can make a better choice. Next, the ASM for the New Scout Patrols needs to develop the annual agenda with the Guides so that they have an opportunity to prepare lessons and be more productive. other than that it sounds like things are developing nicely. Bob White

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Actually OGE the spices you refer to are already part of the program and don't need to be added, just adhered to. An example I would use is...Although a troop cannot set attendance requirements for advancement I know of no problem is settibg attendance requirements for participating in certain events. for instance if you are going to summer camp and have meetings to prepare for that, you can say that to attend camp you need to be at the meetings to make arrangements to get the info. If I were a scout in a patrol I would not elect a PL who did not committ to being at 80% or more of troop and patrol activities. I think a troop that did troop activities every other month and had patrols do activities on the in between months would have lots of spice. I woould even have recognitions for the patrol that the best attendance at their event, the most unique event, the highest adventure, the best plan, the best service project, etc. I think a good spice is to have weekly door prizes. Any scout in a complete uniform can put his name in for a drawing. Or, have a bucket with slips of paper that each have a uniform piece written on it. you draw a slip and give a prize to any scout who is correctly wearing that piece. Keep a wood burning tool handy , teach scouts how to use it. Give walking sticks to Boys as the earn first class and encourage tehem to record places and dates of campouts on the sticks. Just some random thoughts. Bob White

sctmom, Before my son changed to another troop, he was looking to quit. Two things changed his mind. One thing was he went to Philmont Training Center with me. While I was in conference he took part in the family program. We have now been there three times. He would rather go to Philmont than Disney World (and PTC is alot cheaper). the interesting thing is the activities at PTC are not that different than what you find at any summer camp. The difference is the scenery, and mainly the attitude of the staff. They are positive, knowledgable, enthusiastic and complimentary, everything a good leader should be. It showed him what scouting should be. Secondly, we found a troop with a scoutmaster that understoood that. The first time he visited the new troop the SM spent the entire 90 minutes talking with my son. He asked about his scouting experience, his school, his hobbies, his friends and his family. If a patrol leader came with a question, the SM would listen, ask the PL what he thought should be done, the SM said it sounded like an idea worth trying and sent him back to do his job. (I was in heaven). My son is revitalized thanks to good leadership and the real scouting program. In the last 12 months he has earned 6 or 7 MBs, gone to PTC and Northern Tier Canoe Base, summer camp, advanced a rank, was elected to OA, was an active Troop Guide, All this on top of school, band, music lessons, religious ed., and family committments. Except for being at PTC with him and interacting at troop meetings, I don't push scouting on him. He has a Scoutmaster and an SPL that do that. I'm just the dad along for the ride. So my advice to you is to get the patrol together with another adult. Let them know that as a patrol they can do their own stuff and get them brain storming on things to do. Then pick and adventure and ask "what would you need to know how to do to enjoy that event?" then start getting them trained on those skills. They can't do things without adults without the SM's permission, but they can do Patrol activities with 2 deep leadership if they want. (I would still keep the SM informed) Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote "Nothing great was ever accomplished without enthusiasm." That is especially true in scouting. Best always, Bob White

On behalf of all us zealots who want to see the program followed... I have no problem with adding spice. Where I have a big problem is when you remove or alter main ingredients. When you don't allow patrol elections, train Junior leadres, Hold quarterly court of honors, lose 50% of new scouts, Make boys do stunts or exercises as punishments, change the uniform, treat the BSA as a junior military, alter advancement requirements, and have defended their actions with many of the lines in sctmom's original post. All things that individuals on this board have not only admitted to but to but have tried to persuade others to do. A good cook will at least learn to prepare the original dish before experimenting with spices. However far to many leaders alter the program before they ever learn, or even try, to do it right. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As I understand it, the yellow female Cub Leader's blouse (which has been around for over 40 years) is no longer in production. While it is still an option, it's purchase is on a "while supply lasts" basis. Bob White

Sctmom, A good question to get the juices flowing in the morning. Everything you mentioned is great. I would recommend that until they complete first class that you have adults give shadow leadership of hikes and campouts. Otherwise you are right on the money as far as patrol activities. Get the boys get involved in choosing the activities of course. You will discover that patrols who do things away from the troop form tighter bonds, advance faster, do things boys like to do, and have better attendance at troop activities than other patrols. So go for it. Keep the promise we make to the scouts in the opening pages of the handbook. Happy Scouting Bob White

You know yaworski you might stand a little taller if you didn't carry around such a big chip on your shoulder.

twocubdad, Read my previous post again it answers most of your questions. Pack Trainer is not something your council chooses to support or not support. It is a Pack position. There is no separate course that I am aware of. The trainer would attend New Leader Essentials, pack committee Leader Specific Training and Council Train the Trainer/BSA 500. Their intial duties are described in my original post and advanced responsibilities are at the decision of the District and Council training Chair.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Dan, Two things that might help you. 1) Don't wory about how to discipline scouts.Send the disruptive scout home, let his parents discipline him. As you correctly point out, you have a responsibility to maintain a safe learning enviroment. Let the scout return when he agrees to behave in a scout-like manner. That is the scout way to handle things. Other scouts are not responsibible for a boy's behaviour. The boy is. You as SM cannot remove his membership but you can send him home until he agrees to behave. 2) I have been involved in a number of successful scouting units (we have moved a few times due to job transfers) and I have NEVER seen the entire publication of the BSA rules and regulations and have never ever needed to. There is nothing in that publication that will make you a better Scoutmaster, NOTHING! Nothing in there will tell you how to use the patrol method, how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk, how the advancement program works or how to go low impact camping. For unit leaders, the publication you are working so hard to find is the least useful source all of scouting. My recommendation is forget it. Even if you get a copy it's written by lawyers and reads like a foriegn language. Read the Boy Scout handbook, read the SM handbook, Read the Patrol Leader's and SPL's Handbooks. They have the troop program information in them that you need. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You're right sctmom, nowhere does the scouting program treat advancement rank as military ranks. they are a symbol of personal accomplishment not authority. You are also correct that bossing people around is not leadership. Understanding peoples strengths, needs and characteristics and using that information to develop people around you in order to accomplish tasks. That's leadership. The methods of the BSA do not include the type of leadership you describe taking place in your troop. Your leaders need to continue their training or get retrained. Thaey have forgotten more about the program then they remember. Good luck, Bob White

Yaworski, Where do you get your information from? There are two uniform options for wearing the neckerchief. 1)Under the collar 2)On top of a rolled under collar. Wearing a neckerchief on top of an exposed collar is not a uniform option and never has been. It would be helpfull to new scouters on this board if you would distinguish between the BSA program and your own. Bob White

Thanks sctmom, Glad I could help. Scoutpro, Your troop and merit badge counselor are violating the BSA advancement policies. "No unit or individual can add to, or subtract from, the requirements for any advancement beyond what is required in the handbooks of the BSA." As long as the scout follows the requirements as listed in the MB book you or the MB counselor cannot require him to cook for the entire troop. Besides not being a requirement it is not good camping. The largest group a scout should be dealing with is a patrol. In addition, your requirement to attend summer camp is an advancement violation. The only attendance requirement you can place on a scout from Tenderfoot to First Class is to attend 10 troop or patrol activities other than regular troop meetings, 5 of which must be overnight campouts. Any other attendance requirements toward advancement is a violation of the BSA Advancement Policy and Procedures. That's not to say that you couldn't have a unit policy that a boy attends the meeting prior to a campout in order to attend (or a similar rule). Scouting is more than doing stuff in a scout uniform, regardless how good you think the stuff is. Scouting is using the methods, and procedures of the BSA to achieve 3 specific goals. Just because a policy or procedure "works for you" doesn't make it scouting. And I'm not saying do it my way . I'm asking that you do it the scouting way. Bob White

The Scouting program offers different activities based on age and First Class skill levels. The reason is to accomodate the changing needs of youth as they age, not to reward or restrict based on advancement. COPE for instance has an age limit to accomodate physical strength required for some events. OA has a rank requirement because you are expected to have sufficient camping skills which are represented in the First Class requirements. No BSA Boy Scout activities have restrictions other than a specific age (usually 13) by a given date and First Class skills. In my son's troop there are special activities based on age, to accomodate the level of challenge and adventure that an older youth is ready for and craving to participate in. A 13 year old does not have the same physical capabilities or social and emotional needs as a 16 year old scout has regardless of what rank they each hold. It is not the rank that determines their needs it is their age and stage of maturation. For younger scouts the incentive in advancement is the recognition and positive reinforcement that a boy receives from youth and adult leaders as they learn new skills. For the scouts working on the first three ranks they often do not realize they are advancing. They participate in the program and advance as a by-product of their activity. Older scouts are not motivated in the same way. As they become more independent so does their personal response to motivation. Scouts will advance to upper ranks along very different paths and for different reasons. However their interest in high adventure seems almost universal in their age group. Physical growth, and a need for independence, drives them to more physically challenging activities. A strong Troop program realizes the changing needs of boys as they age and makes sure there are elements of the troop activity to accomodate that. Bob White

As the CM when my son was in Cub Scouts we worked it like this. First we determined what the pack needed to raise per boy to do the things with and for the cubs during the year. That determined our dues for the year. We then figured out how much popcorn each scout needed to sell to pay those dues. Any profit over that amount was split 50-50 with the pack and the cub in the form of a Cub Cash account. as scout who did not generate enough sales to cover the dues had to pay the difference to the treasury. Bob

Tim, I commend you for taking the time to learn the program and for understanding and accepting your responsibility as a leader to set a good example for others to follow. Keep in mind that the rules do not say that everyone has to be in a full uniform to be a scout. A boy who cannot afford uniform pants immediately is not a bad scout. What the rules say is that a unit or individual does not have the authority to alter the official uniform. for instance they cannot say that "in our pack blue jeans are the official uniform" or "in our den you can wear whatever neckerchief you want". It is not that leaders uniform to alter. Every Charter organization and adult leader signs an agreement to follow the policies and procedures of the BSA. Thank you for having the maturity to honor that promise. Bob White

My information is the same as Scoutnut's. The orange shirt will continue to be the uniform of the Tiger cub. There is an orange neckerchief but it is for the Tiger Den Leader to wear.