Bob White

I do appreciate what your saying Eagle74, but it has been my experience over the years that what actually happening in the field is very different. First most scouts when they leave a troop leave scouting, and that happens for a couple of reasons. First, most boys think that what they experienced is scouting, because they have trust that the tyroop they joined followed the program. And since they think all troops are alike theu see no point in moving to another unit. The other problem is that going into a strange troop with kids they don't know is frieghtening, so they just quit the program. The other thing to keep in mind is that kids continue to do whatever they enjoy the most. Adults are the same way, we are animals. We respond positively to thinks that make us feel good. We repeat behaviours that bring us positive rewards. What we are discussing here aren't the random boys who leave the program, but units who continually experience high turnovers. As a commissioner of many years you begin to notice warning signs at a very early stage. A unit that routinely loses more than 10% of youth members annually gets my attention. We are talking of units that say they routinely lose 40% or 50% of new scouts. The only scouter on this board that had a real excuse is Koreascouter who is on a military base and families are constantly transfered. Other than that I guarantee that a unit experiencing the exodus of youth that some are blaming on parental support, outside activities, not meant for the program, can't swim...Too be blunt I don't buy it. I know from my experience it's program. Kids do not leave a good scout program because there is nothing else like it in their lives. Nowhere else do they get the control, the adventure, the recognition, the fullfillment that they get from a real scouting program. We seen it from the posters on this board. the ones who are losing large numbers of boys and aren't retaining older ones and aren't getting new ones in the numbers that others in their area get all have commonalities. They use bits and pieces of the program but they are missing vital chunks. They assign Patrol Leaders, they cook as troops, they don't follow policies, they aren't trained or haven't stayed current on training, they don't provide adequate advancement opportunities, they alter the uniform, they don't involve families. They run programs in scout uniforms but not Scouting programs. Jerry Sienfeld said about TV laundry soap commercials "if your clothes are covered in blood stains, maybe laundry isn't your biggest problem!" If you are losing 40% or more of your new scouts every year, maybe parental support isn't your biggest problem! It's time to look at the scouting program and how you can do more of it every week. It's all in the program. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Tim, You are dead on right. Roundtable, like the meetings they prepare leaders for, needs to be hands on and fun. have confidence in what you are trying to do and don't be forced into doing it wrong. I suggest one last meeting with the DE and Boy scout Roundtable Commissioner to come to an agreement as to the purpose of Roundtable and how to fulfill that mission. That purpose as I'm sure you remember is to provide unit leaders with "The Will To Do" and "The Skill To Do" a quality scouting program in their community. That means you have to provide the crafts, skills, motivation to deliver a true scouting program. If the District Commissioner does not trust your training I would say "find someone willing to do a bad job, that's not what I volunteer my time for." Then run to the District Training Chairman and offer to do Cub Leader and Roundtable Commissioner Training. You could make a huge impact on the quality of scouting in your area. Best of luck, I'm pullin for ya! Bob White

Eisely is right about there being an appeal option. However it exists at the unit level. This is not a case of the unit rejecting the the scout. This would come from the National Board of Review which would be similar to a Supreme Court ruling, there would be no higher court to appeal to. If the scouts accomplishments do not meet national's established criteria the issue would be dead as far as the BSA's authority. Bob White

I actually find that pretty creative. It still allows for the election of the SPL by the scouts and allows for training junior leaders. it seems to meet both the methods and goals of the program. I like it! Doesn't International Rotary club do it much the same way? Bob white

I agree with OGE. I would not lose a scout for lack of a uniform. I was shocked to find a troop's web-site that had a policy whereby if the scout was not in full uniform within 2 months they were barred from troop activities until they had the uniform. That's outrageous! Honestly I wouldn't have any deadline at all. They should wear the uniform because they feel a part of the group and because of pride in who they are and what they stand for. In some scouts that takes longer to develop than in others. I would make it as easy as possible to get the uniform and not water down the program by saying the uniform is less than what the BSA says it is. Altering the basic components is not in our authority. Continue to set a good example. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Have a great time Tim! Bob

The elements of Boy Scout Uniform are determined by the Nation Executive committee. No unit or individual has the authority to alter it. I commend you for wearing the correct uniform. The goal in the unit should be full and correct uniform at appropriate times. The unit should help make it possible for all scouts to own a correct uniform. The use of uniform recycling, thrift shops, garage sales, uniform exchanges and E-Bay should be employed along with new uniform purchases, to assist scouts to be in uniform. Good grooming and proper uniforming are from head to toe. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yaworski, You still dodged the issue that the BSA continues to teach traditional outdoor skills despite your baseless, fairy tale, threats that they are being eliminated. Even those vital to survival like....semaphore. Please share with us your vast understanding of this program you treat with such distain. We hang on you your every word. Bob White

Hi Glenn, I have seen boys how have had less than 50% attendance meet all the requirements as listed in the handbook, if they attend the right activities, and have evidence of being able to do the required skill. I'll be honest with you Glenn It has benn many years since I've had an attendance problem. The units I have served have been an awful lot of fun and done some interesting camping, the scouts don't stay away. The few that have we treat on an individual basis. If for instance we had a scout who was needing a few requirements but it was Basket ball season and he couldn't make the meetings, we would have a scout near him meet at his house and work with him. We are there to help them grow and we accept some need more flexibility on our part to acheive that growth. We do courts of honor quarterly as recommended for the Quality Unit Award. It's one of our most important communication tools we have for keeping in touch with all the parents. It is also important for the scouts to show their growth and development in front of their parents. Court of Honors are usually, but certainly not restricted to, meeting nights. We almost always do Eagle Courts separate. Good questions, hope this helped, Bob White

It is unlikely tha the Eagle will be withheld provided the scout currently has the required merit badges needed to attain Eagle. However I would contact the Scout Executive and ask what hurdles still exist. If at the time the scout becam Life both the troop advancement chairman and the Council missed the fact that the scout lacked the correct MB combination I do not see how the can hold it against the scout. Once the scout reaches 18 (unless he has received an advancment waiver based on a documented medical condition)the advancement clock stops. Paperwork can still be processed buut the scout can do no more advancement work. Make sure the scout has what is needed in total for his Eagle and keep the lines of communications open with your council Scout Executive. Best of Luck, Bob White

I tip my scout hat to tdyer56, I learned today from BSA supply Division that the orange Tiger shirt will indeed be replaced by the Blue Scout shirt some time in the furure. Please don't stop using the orange shirt though. it would be financially irresoponsible of the BSA th make the move if it meant having a large surplus of Tiger shirts left over. Once inventory is at a low enough level the switch to blue shirts will be made. Until then the official and correct uniform for Tigers is the orange t-shirt. Sorry I doubted you Tim, Bob White

CubsRgr8, You are absolutely right..."the primary role of the professionals is to support the unit volunteers so that they can provide a quality program. The DE makes sure you have the support (Members, manpower (on the District level) and youth members). But the Quality program is the responsibility of the unit volunteer. How you deliver the program at your den, pack and troop meetings is in your control. Bob

I have never backed down from a bully and I don't beleive I will let you be the first. You have been name calling and insulting people on this board unchallenged for too long. Take a look at your last post Yaworski and tell me who is changing the subject. The topic was the teaching of basic outdoor skills in the handbook. You were getting all worked up over what some imaginary scout might do if his bateries in the GPS went dead and I said he would use the scout skills still being taught today. You never addressed that. You wrote "Not when they drop compass reading like they have done to other "traditional but outdated" skills." but they haven't dropped compass have they? Your projecting on something you have no evidence of. By the way tracking is on page 93 of the Boy Scout Handbook. As far as semaphor, give us a break, when was the last time you know of that someone even carried semaphore flags. Oh, we don't do smoke signals either, sorry about that. You believe that scouting is in a death spiral and yet the only suggestion you've offered so far is that the shoulder loops and service star backings should match. Pure genius! How is it that has escaped us all for so long. Why, think of the difference that would make in the development of a young person. You are indeed the master of scouting methods and I humble myself before you! I can only imagine the esteem in which you are held in your council. As far as your feeling like I've insulted you, I will remind you of your own words form another string "it's not an insult if it's the truth". My apologies to the other posters but this guy really frosts me. He brings nothing to the table but complaints and distain for the BSA and toward most of the posters on this site. He offers nothing in the way of actual scouting methods or even an understanding of the program other than superficial fashion tips. If I have dampened the spirit of the bulletin board with my rebuttals to his tirades, I'm sorry.

What if he did? Is it a bad thing that the Scout Executive wants his staff Wood Badge Trained. Would the experience of learning and developing along with the local volunteers be bad for their local scouting program? Is there nothing positive you have to offer about today's scouting? My father-in-law retired after over 50 years as a brick mason. He likes to remind pessimists that any idiot can knock a building over but it takes a craftsman to build one. Sounds to me like the Scout Executive and his staff are trying to build something good in their council. It also sounds like you are not. Bob White

ScouterPaul, Trust me. There is safety in numbers. If you ask them as a group they will help each other find ways to say no. It's human nature. Speak to them privately one at a time. Let them know that you are not looking for "someone" to to the work. You are looking for "that individual" to do a task that is important to the boys. You will have dramatic results.

Kids will not let go of things that they enjoy the most. If you are losing a large percentage of new scouts or have a lot of scouts leaving at 16 it's because you are not delivering the program. I can accept that a unit loses a scout from time to time. but if you are experiencing drop off rates like some of these posters are saying they have, it's your program. The longer you give them excuses to hide behind, Parents, sports, can't swim, stone in my shoe, sun in my eyes...the longer it's going to take for them to realize...it's their lack of a scouting program! Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

sctmom, We are not talking about Webelos who choose not to go into Boy Scouts. We are looking at some troops that lose 50% of Boy Scouts in the same community as troops who keep all their new scouts. Can it be that the activity shoppers all joined the same troop? I don't thinks so. Sure from time to time a boy will leave for a variety of reasons. But we have poster here who claim a 40 to 50% loss on a regular basis. There is only one reason for that. It is that the unit is not delivering a scout program. The change in teenage mentality is a good example. The Boy Scout program is designed to accomodate that developmental stage. If the troop is using the patrol method and doing the activities the boys choose under boy leadership you will fill the need for independance and self determination that a young person is feeling. I realize that this revelation hits home in a personal way with some leaders. Especially those who basically run one man shows. If you set yourself up as the person "in charge" realizing that kids are leaving not due to other activities or parental support (or any other excuse you've become comfortable with), but because you are not using the scouting program, it probably bruises the ego. Bob White

I haven't checked out the new neckerchief or slide so I'll take the 5th on those. But I can guarantee you that Walmart sells a heck of alot more clothes than the BSA and quantity affects cost. I will disagree on their quality too. I spend more money replacing jeans each year than I spend on scout uniforms. Don't even get me started on Tennis shoe replacements. Bob

Asctually Fscouter what you had was a DE doing his job badly. But at least he was doing HIS job badly and not doing a volunteers job badly. The DE is responsible for growth in unit numbers, but they have to do it well. His actions will likely costt him his career. So you see it had nothing to do with a problem with program volunteers. Now, about why you only have 6 scouts, no one over 12 and struggling...... Bob White

Paul, My advice...DON'T DO IT! I know that might sound odd but let me explain. Listing all the jobs will only frighten some and warn others away. Before you even get a chance to ask for help folks will be be looking for ways to say NO. Instead, use the time you would have taken to share the list and tell the parents how rewarding it is to work with the kids and how the Scouting program makes it fun and manageable with resources for every aspect of the pack program. Remind them that it's a family program and that we will all have fun together. Then get together with your committee chair and start identifying speciific jobs that need to be done. identify the skills needed to be successful, the resources available to help and then indentify the person most capable of doing the job. Finally take the resources and job description and go see that person. Tell them that you have a specific job that needs to be done for the children to have a great year of scouting. describe the job and why you chose this person to do it. Tell them what the goal is and how much time it should take, and when they will be done. This tactic takes a little longer but is far more effective. You will get the best person for the job, they realize they are valued as an inividual. Most importantly people will say yes. Hope this helps, Bob White

Hi BobL, Try contacting your local scout office to obtain the name and Phone number of your district advancement chair. He or she should have your local MB counselor list. By the way typing in all caps is called "shouting" and is considered poor etiquette on the Internet. Bob White

Practicing a little fear mongering today Y? The scout handbook has not dropped compass, do you have any real information that they are about to? They have not dropped Tote n chip, do you have any hard evidence that they are about to. Care and use of an ax is still taught and required for advancement. Do you have knowledge to share that those advancements will soon change? Why do you create these imaginary scenarios, they just upset you? B

I can give you my point of view as a volunteer, a parent of a scout, and from my nearly two decades in retail sales. First as a parent. I too paid the $75 for my sons uniform. He wore it about 60 times a year for 3-years. Thats 180 times of use and unless my calculator is malfunctioning that is less than .42 each pride filled time he wore that uniform. No other piece of clothing he owned lasted that long. I paid as much each year for his little league uniform and he only wore that about 14 times. after he switched to a tan Boy Scout shirt we took all his patches from his Blue Shirt and gave it to another family to use, that is durability. So as a parent I am very pleased with the quality and value of the uniform. As an adult volunteer I have had the same experience. My uniform pants last me 2 to 3 years. That's longer than most my pants last. My shirts have lasted 5 years or longer. That's about $20 a year and I wear my uniform over 100 times a year. I have absolutely no problem with that. If you want greater durability you can get the wool blend uniform. I have seen those last a dozen years or more. As far as as the quality of the patches they are the best in the world. I collect scout emblems from around the world and few even come close to the quality of our accessories. As a retailer, I can tell you that on top of the actual cost of the uniform material the manufacturer attaches an enormous mark-up. They have labor, warehousing, shipping/receiving, net profit and more that they add to the piece. They get the largest part of the pie. Then it goes to BSA supply where they add all of their overhead costs, Then it goes to the retailer or council store where they have a small profit they are allowed to add. Every store regardless of size must sell official BSA products at a price fixed by nmational to avoid consumers being gouged. From that they pay a licensing fee to the national office each year, regardless of how much they sell. This is not a big money maker for the BSA. As far as the uniform being sold at cost compared to other items, that just isn't feasible. It costs as much to handle a box of mugs as it does a box of shirts and you need to cover the overhead on both. I can appreciate the immediate sticker shock of a brand new complete uniform. But when you look at the length of service it's a bargain. Pair that with the avenues available for finding perfectly good pre-owned uniforms, cost is really not a problem for anyone willing to take a few minutes to look around. By the way my son just got his second Tan shirt after wearing his frst one for three and a half years. Now he has two of my old ones that no longer fit me (I think it's the soap my wife uses My shirts shrink about every 5 or 6 years . I do wish the pants pockets were roomier but thats a minor problem. Hope this helps, Bob (proud to wear a full uniform) White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have attended 4 different summer camps. 3 had jamboree style cooking in the camp sites and dining hall style. One was only dining hall. I have no problem with either method. Both provide for use of the patrol method. Both allowed plenty of time for activities. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Jambo style is excellent training for younger scouts by providing the opportunity to prepare a variety of meals. in the camps I've been to Jambo units had better meals and menus than the dining hall units. Dining hall meals offered scouts more social time with scouts from other units. Some camps had special programs during meals that jambo troops missed out on. I have always left it to the PLC to decide. Sometimes they picked Dining hall sometimes Jambo. It's their camp experience and since the camp offers choices why not let the scouts choose? Bob White

Sager, Most Scout professionals I know will do anything they can to assist a unit. But bear in mind that is because of the type of person who gravitates to that job. But job performance needs to be measurable, and goodwill is difficult to put a ruler on. Manpower, membership and money, however are concrete, measurable, trackable, figures. thay also have an affect on program. You cannot have a strong program without the adults to guide it, the youth to benefit from it and the finances to support program events. So indirectly the De's work has a major impact on program. But directly, day to day and year to year program is the responsibility of Council, District and Unit level volunteers. Bob White