Bob White

I also checked with the local police department's Juvenile Division and spoke with an investigator specializing in child abuse. This would indeed constitute child abuse, especially if the offender was two years of age or older than the victim, and should have been reported by the adults on the outing to the state agency responsible for investigating child abuse. They are the authority for determining if legal charges will be filed. It is not the leaders responsibility or authority to determine if abuse took place. By not reporting the event, the adults who the victim reported the event to, could be charged in most states for failure to report abuse, because scoutleaders (like teachers) are considered mandatory reporting agents (or a similar term). The only person who did the right thing in this case was the scout who reported the event to the adult leaders. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As an addendum to what ScouterPaul wrote. The webelos Leader Outdoor training has been rewritten. It has been field tested in the last few months and a new syllabus should be available soon. I am told it will run along side the new Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills training taken by SM and ASMs. They will share some instructional classes and have some separately. I have not gotten a release date yet other than soon. Bob White

Alright yaworski against the recommendation of a couple of fellow posters I'm going to address you directly. I have to belive that you write the things you do out of sport, to elicit a response or start a debate, because you can't possible this ignorant in real life. If in fact you act like this just for fun, you need to find a more productive way to spend what time you have been given on this earth. You have no way of knowing what our parents beliefs were or are (as you alluded to in one post). But let me take one guess at your parents beliefs... I would think that your mother would be ashamed to read your posts. She would have to question her success as a parent to raise someone (regardless of what your age might be) who would use the acronym that you used in a another post (As a scout leader I take my promise to be Clean too seriously I suppose, as I had to do a google search to discover the meaning.) If your mother is alive I hope you show her what you wrote and explain its meaning. Don't forget to tell her that there are minors who read this board who I'm sure also looked up the meaning. If your mother is no longer alive for you to embarass I mourn your loss, but I am relieved she is spared the anguish of knowing your lack of maturity and decency. I am not surprised that you are not bothered by the crude and obscene behaviour of the scout in question in an other string since you seem to share in his total absence of character. As I said before my parents taught me not to back down from bullies. I'm thankfull they also taught me right from wrong. It's a shame your parents lacked the same commitment to your development. My personal thought (since you have posted your belief that I have none) is that your participation on this board (and to scouting in general) is as valuable as a bicycle to a fish. You owe an apology to the women on this board for your thoughtless language, to the men on this board many of whom have wives in the scouting program and to the young people who read this, for your thoughtless and crass language. I have taken the time to share my feelings about your behaviour with the managers of this site, what actions they take are up to them. They can bounce me from this board if they like, should they feel this is more my problem than yours. But its time someone called a spade a spade. Feel free to rebut this if you'd like. I would not be surprised to find you have some twisted rationale for the vulgarity you used. So take your best shot. Make your mama proud! Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I shared your idea with my son's SM. He liked it a lot and is going to offer it to the SPL at the next PLC meeting. Bob

I once had a six year stretch as a SM when it rained or snowed on every campout but 3. We even got hit by Hurricane Bob at the National Jamboree. Anyway, one night the older scouts took the new scout patrol night-fishing. After awhile I walked up behind them, hidden by a hedge row, so that I could see how they were interacting without interupting. The SPL was drawing pictures of the constellations in the sand descibing to a scout how to find the North Star. The new scout looked up and said "I don't see the Big Dipper". The SPL responded very matter of factly saying.."Oh you won't actually see any stars on our campouts unless we can get Mr. White to stay at home". Nice to have a reputation!? Bob White

Very cute story rlculver415, and I would hate to cost your son any points but the correct answer would have been W.D.Boyce. He was the gentleman who met the scout in London and bought the rights to publish the handbook from BP. Seton was a nationally recognized nature artist and author who had a nother youth group that eventually merged with lone scouts and a third group to form modern scouting. Bob White

An excellent example sctmom. Thanks. Bob

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Well done James! Bob White

sst3rd, I really do appreciate your feelings on this but I can't help but think that many leaders make this harder than it really is. As far as the rules and regulations in youth protection it is really very basic. When the scouts first learn the Oath and the Law let them know it is a personal committment not an openiing ceremony. That you promise to treat them in a manner consistent with the Scout Law and you require them to treat others, including fellow scouts, in this way if they intend to remain in the troop. It's the LAW. Use your scoutmaster Minutes as well as SM conferences and Boards of review to help each individual sharpen their understanding of scouting ideals. When you do this, improper behaviour is glaringly obvious. In addition the scouts already know that they have committed a serious misdeed. When you send them home, they and their parents know why. No big meetings, no awkward converstaions or lectures. It becomes "what is the 5th point of the scout Law?", "What does that mean to you?", "Do you feel you behaved in a scout like manner?" "What do you think would be an appropriate thing to do now?" Barring situations that violate youth protection, the scout has an opportunity to make a better decision than the one that put him outside the LAW. He learns and grows. No shouting, No need for a mass of troop rules and regs. The only rule is to be a scout, behave like a scout. There is a problem among scouters distinguishing between tradition and bad habits. It seems if you are allowed to continue a bad habit long enough it gets elevated to the honorable state of tradition. Scouting has become filled with bad habits. Some are unique to a troop, a locale, or on a national level. This is where you need common sense, not in determining which rule to follow. Never do anything just because someone or several someones did it before you. There are alot of safety rules because we have A LOT of volunteers, all from different backgrounds, occupational and educational experiences. Among them are some folks who do a lot of really stupid things. If we don't put those rules in writing, teach them and insist they be followed it would only take one really stupid person to do one really stupid thing and they could shut this program down. Every time we as leaders allow those kind of things to happen we open the door to disaster. That is why it is neccessary to follow the rules like them or not. We have a responsibility to the welfare of all of scouting, not just the unit we serve. Thanks for your time, more later, Bob White

Parents participation is a by product of other elements not an element in itself. Parents don't want to be a part of a program that is disorganized, poorly lead, poor communications, and appears like too much work to do, or where they are not appreciated for their individual skills. They don't want to volunteer their time to be miserable. Everbody is willing to stand around and watch a train wreck...but nobody wants to be on board. If you want adults you need to do whats on the list and the adults will come to you when you invite them individually. Another thought red feather. You say you don't here from your district or council unless they need money. who does your trainin, organizes camporeess, runs the cub day camps, puts on roundtables, maintains your camps, operates summer camp, keeps your the council reacords, helps with cub recruitment, puts out communications on events, starts new units, promotes advancement, opersates the scout shop, helps when a scout is injured, protects scouters when there is a lawsuit, as well as raise the monety needed to maintain a program in your community. Districts, councils and units are inseparable. They can't exist without you or you without them. The healthier one of you are the healthier you both are. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Red feather You are correct no person or unit can add to or subtract from the requirements found in any youth Handbook. Regardless of how well intentioned it may be. You need to notify the troop committee (TC?) to withdraw this requirement immediately. The documentation can be found in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. If they refuse, you owe it to the scouts to inform the district advancement committee and the district commissioner. Thanks for sticking to the program. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I can accept to agree to disagree on some topics. However many of the subjects that have brought about the most venomous responses are matters of policies and regulations. As a Commissioner or trainer you cannot simply say "well that's your opinion". We have a resonsibility to the safety of all scouts and scouting programs to say "No, that is unacceptable in a scouting situation." There are "scouters" on this board who are acting or allowing others to act in very dangerous and prohibited ways. I realize they don't like being told what they are doing is wrong but they need to be told before a boy or a program is harmed. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Any Scout in a unit I served who made a gesture like that would be on his way home and possibly for good. I would expect any responsible adult to respond the same way. Everyone needs to be familiar with this passage from the guide to safe scouting. "Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored. Member Responsibilities All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit. If confronted by threats of violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or parents." Keep in mind that bold lettering is unalterable policy. Now reread the original incident in the post and tell me it does not fit the discription of prohibited behavior. Also note the instruction to report the incident to an adult. Now look at the scout discribed in Yaworski's last post and decide if that scout's actions are forbidden. Don't play hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, when it comes to these harmful behaviours. Your responsibility is to the boys who want to follow the ideals of the program, not to the ones who won't. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

A good value in a three season tent is the Eureka Tetragon-5. It's a modified dome 5ft X 7ft footprint. Split between two people it is just under 3lbs each in packed weight, and costs under $60. Bob White

Mike, Congratulations on the pending application of your future Venture scout. Best wishes to mom, dad, and daughter. The Bob White covey

You raise an excelent point in that the items we are dicusssing are tools to hold the scouts attention while they learn the real aims of the program. Today there are some better tools than in the past. In the future there will be better tools than there are today. Baden-Powell said "a good fisherman uses the bait the fish like to eat not the food the fisherman likes to eat". When using semaphore became bad bait for today's fish, it was dropped. Scouting needs to speak to todays youth not to the childhood of the leader. Bob White

The phrase "Boys will be boys" is an out an out evasion of adult responsibility. "Boys will be men" and how they treat others as men is molded by how they learn to treat others as boys. Why would anyone recommend a scout to go around spreading gossip or lies about another person,let alone another scout? What kinda of character develop is that? Again, reconsider what we would have thought if the antagonist was over 18. This is not bullying and even if it was it has no place in Scouting. A person who acts like this does not just start this behaviour out of the blue. He has been allowed to escalate to this point by adults who turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to his previous misdeeds. Whether you label him a bully or a sexual harrasser, his actions are prohibited in the BSA under the policies and regulations of Youth Protection. those rules are there to protect the victim not to pamper the violator. To ignore those rules places the chartering organization and every leader present legally liable for that boys actions, both criminally and civilly. No Scout has the right to endanger others in this manner. To write it off as machismo posturing or to say that the scout should not report this sort of behaviour is irresponsible. An adult who would tell this to a boy is as dangerous to the unit as the scout who committed the harrassment.

CubsRgr8, I'm confident that none of the 5 things you mentioned were named as responsibilities of the DE. They are assumptions you made and likely did not verify with anyone, am I right? Here's who is responsible for the 5 items you listed. 1) Make sure the right training is scheduled at the right time (that includes some evenings, for volunteers who work weekends). Council and District Advancement Chairs 2) Make sure that District activities (Cub events, camporees, etc.) are scheduled BEFORE our annual planning meeting in August and don't tell me to come to the September RT to get info on September's Cub Event. District Committee Chair and District Activities Chair 3) Make sure we have a competent Unit Commissioner. District Commissioner and Asst. District Commissioners 4) Make sure the August (and every) RT focuses on program and doesn't consist of a 60 minute presentation on Trails' End popcorn. District Commissioner and Roundtable Commissioner 5) Make sure the Council has an up-to-date website. Not a District responsibility, Council Web-site would be the responsibility of the Council President and the Web-site chair All The items you sited are Volunteer responsibilities. The DE's job in these case is MANPOWER. The DE makes sure the District positions are filled. It 's the volunteer's responsibility to do their own job. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The new Introduction to Outdoor Leader Training has more hands on time than the outdoor training program it replaces. You spend about 90 minutes on each outdoor skill learning it up to the 1st Class level. To allow for more time for the other skills, cooking is done as a demo for the participants and all meals are prepared by staff. The one exception is a foiled dinner where the participants fix there own. (Be mindful of proper sanitation practices to model.) You need to keep things on schedule if you want to get everything done in time. It takes a pretty good size staff to put on a good show. We use over a dozen staffers. Have a good QM and know your costs. There are some unique supplies that every one needs like a walking staff, tote n chip and fire n chit cards, that is given them as they go through the events of the weekend. There are a number of preprint brochures and handouts you will need. Tell everyone to bring a handbook and a compass. We tell them to pack accordding to the personal equipment list in the Boy Scout Handbook. Hope this helps Bob white

I agree it saves the district commissioner and district executive time when the roundtable is in the same place at the same night. I also agree to do the the announcements together IF the info is relevent to both progrmas. But to have the Cub Leaders watch a Boy Scout opening is not helpfull to the leaders of the troop or vice versa. As much as I enjoyed the conveience, my convenienc is not the goal of the Roundtable program. Giving Unit Leaders the will to do and the skill to do good scouting does not rely onmy conveience or that of the DE's. 30 minutes of individual program time out of 60, or even better 90 minutes,is not enough to accomplish the goals of RT. The RT training syllabus, both Roundtable staff manuals as well as the Roundtable conferences at Philmont Training Center stress the need for individual programs. There is a reason for that consistency. It works better than joint meetings. Tim is following the training he has recieved and he is correct to do so. His evaluation that he is not being given the tools and opportunity to do the job correctly is accurate. The district Commissioner should not ask him to do the job and then not allow him to do it the way he was properly trained to do it is poor management. Bob White

There are some great Sm minutes in this list. Thanks to all that responded. Ozemu, I love your wet weather plan. Bob

Whether the father ias a registered scouter or not has no bearing on the issue. He is the father of the abused scout. That's all the credentials he needs. The adults adult leaders in this case did not follow good youth protection protocol. They risked the safety of the scouts, ignored the abusive act, failed to report the incident as required by law and the BSA policies. Removing the scout from the outing is the least they should have done. The father of the offended scout showed the best judgement of the entire group. Bob White

Double Eagle, if we agree that it is abuse then you have a legal responsibility to report it. Otherwise in most states you personally could face civil and criminal charges. I will go to any length to bring a scouting program to a boy. The only thing I require in return is that he keep his promise to behave in a scoutlike manner. This scout broke that trust in a big way. The other parents trust me to do everything possible to protect their sons from abuse. As leaders we have a moral and legal obligation to report this as abuse and remove the scout. This is not behaviour to be dealt with lightly. Bob White PS; Good night all!(This message has been edited by Bob White)

maai, Ask yourself this question. If it had been an adult doing those actions would you have called it bullying? I think not. This was improper sexual conduct and had no place in the program. the parent of the offended boy had every right to demand he be sent home and he should have. This is not scout behavior. No boy with any kind of decent character would suddenly act this way. Personally, and I know that this is going to cause a stir, I would advise the charter organization to remove him from the program and would report the incident to the council executive and ask that his scouting membership be revoked. Some will think this extreme, but I take my responsibility to protect the other scouts as seriously as I expect the offending scout to take his committment to the Oath and Law. His actions violated at least 9 of the 12 points of the Law. Bob White