Bob White

It's important to know what level of restriction you are under and just what that means. As I understand it from some rangers I spoke with out west this summer there are circumstances when even stoves are not permitted. I will agree that things like this happen in scouting only when adult "leaders" allow it to happen. Bob White

Venturer 2002 You make some good points. I would like to correct you on a small item. Many leaders who own the Polyester wool blend uniform shirt choose to have it dry cleaned. The pressing style you noticed is a typical style used by cleaners an any uniform, whether military, law enforcement, fire fighters, and even scouting uniforms. Bob White

Sidebar; The NM fire (Ponil Complex) was started by three lightning strike fires that merged. The fire started allegedly by the park employee was in Colorado I believe.

I like Double eagles list. Although I have never taken or needed the super glue or lighter. I would add; > Use the Patrol Method for everything > Remeber camping is just where you sleep, always have a purpose or activity don't just go to sleep somewhere other than home. > If the adult leaders are cooking for boys, or telling patrol members what to do, then you are doing it incorrectly. > use campfires don't just have a campfire. It's a great time to counsel, teach, test, do scoutmaster conferences and Board of Reviews. > Try to go someplace different every month of the year Bob White

Double eagle, Projecting what the effect on ociety will be by reporting is not your responsibility and certainaly is not within the knowledge sphere of the tens of thousands of adult volunteers in our program. Your responsibility begins and ends with the welfare of the individual child who you suspect is being abused. Ed. You answered your own question. Since verbal harrassment is not a reportable offense if sexual misconduct is not involved you are not required to report it. You are however required to deal with it as verbal haarassment, an activity prohibited by the scouting program. You are required to protect the scouts from this behavior. You cannot ignore it. the G2SS gives procedures that you are expected to follow. Inaction will likely lead to further prohibited behaviour could result in physical violence among the scouts and your expulsion from the program for not following Youth Protection policies. Bob White

Counseling won't help if you don't stop the abuse. Regardless of where you are, you have a scouting executive, and you are required to report any supected child abuse or sexual misconduct. Bob White

Sorry, I was trying to make a parrallel that everyone could understand. i guess i picked a bad one. I'll try another. For this to be a national program it needs everyone's copoperation. The purpose of which is to give all scouts the benefit odf the best possible program. The volunteers and staff of the BSA have tested and developed these programs and program elements over 90 plus years. We all agreed as volunteers and charter organizations to follow those rules and regulations. We have a responsibility as "leaders" to lead! I would hope that in your lives you follow the rules in your communities and not just the rules you like. I would hope you would want the scouts in the units you serve to follow the rules of your unit not just the rules that they like. By picking and choosing the parts of the program you will adhere to you set a self destructive pattern for the scouts you serve and the program you claim to represent. There are many parts of the scouting progrm that allows for local customization. But the rules governing Safety, uniform and advancement are not for local variation. They are the elements that protect our members and define and identify the program. I hope that for most this is a clearer explaination. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Double Eagle If you have taken Youth Protection Training then you have been told who the local authorities are. The fact the you scout overseas has no bearing on the topic. You are no doubt providing scouting through a military base, you have a scout executive assigned to your region that you must report sexual miscinduct to. He or she will direct you to the proper authority on your base. We need to stop reminiscing with "when we were kids we used to do this"or "we used to say that". The fact is some of the things we did were wrong and are now prohibited in scouting and illegal in most states. Ignoring them simply perptuates the crime and dameges scouting for other members. No Double Eagle, my advice to maai, is to follow the regulations inorder to protect the other scouts, the families of the leaders and make the offending scout get the meassage that his actions are unacceptable to scouting and the community at large. This boy is not a scout, he is a thug hiding in a scout uniform. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Raul, The USA introduced a new Wood Badge format this year called Wood Badge for the 21st Century. It is for all adult volunteers in all the programs and at all levels of the Boy Scouts of America. The instruction lasts over 2 full weekends, and focuses primarily on leadership skills. during the course the participants develop a set of personal goals called a "ticket". Follow the completion of the two weekends the participants enter an 18-month application phase. During this time they must practice the skills they learned and complete the goals they set for themselves. A staff memeber is assigned to each applicant as a mentor to be a resource for them as they work on their ticket, and to eveluate there progress. I took my Wood Badge under previous program formats, and although I was a contributing writer to this course I have not seen it function in its completed format. There are a number of posters on this board who have participated this year and I'm sure they will fill you in on the specific kinds of things they learned. Your friend in scouting, Bob White

Ed, There are a number of reasons why children do not report abuse immediately or at all. Some examples are written in the G2SS. The amount of time to report whether immediately, or months later, does not lessen the seriousness of the offense. You close you eyes to the violation assuming that the victim "asked for it". The action of the older scout was not defensive in nature. His behaviour was wrong and possibly criminal. The leaders had a responsibility to take direct action through scouting and legal avenues and they did NOTHING. Their response, more like their lack of response, was as irresponsible as the offending scout's actions. Bob White

Double Eagle, You assume that Sager is male. I made no such assumption. The implication was that unless you were a boy at some point in your life you cannot understand the "boys will be boys" code of conduct. I don't think a responsible adult has to have been a boy to understand boys or to know how to read and follow the policies and regulations governing behavior in the BSA. The policies of the BSA clearly state that the whether you classify the offenders behavior as bullying, sexual harrassment or hazing, it is prohibited in the activities of the BSA. here is what the Guide to Safe Scouting says you MUST DO. Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it. The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members. The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit. If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action. The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member. Failure to follow bold print policies in the BSA risks the safety of the scouts, exposes adult leaders to loss of liability insurance normally provided by the BSA, and opens the adult leader to civil and criminal prosecution related to their actions. Ed says that this wasn't sexual harrassment. Well the rules don't refer to sexual harrassment. It says sexual misconduct. This scout's actions were obviously sexual misconduct. I am not suggesting you should inform the authoriites. The BSA and state laws require that you inform the authorities. The leaders of that troop can now be criminally charged with contributing to the abuse of a child for failing to report the incident. By not reporting the incident to the Troop Committee, the scout's parents, and the local Scout Executive, the leaders have exposed themselves to civil prosecution from the offended scout and removal from the BSA. Bob White

Double Eagle, Your understanding of the Youth Protection Policies and the content of the G2SS is incorrect. The Youth protection policies reflect the BSA's compliance with existing laws in nearly every state. You are not required to have evidence of abuse, only the suspicion of abuse. As Scout Leaders we are required by law to report suspected child abuse to local law enforcement or to the State Dept. of Children and Family Services, and to notify your local Council Scout Executive or the Scout Executive in the Council where the suspected abuse took place. Failure to do so is a criminal offense in most states. This is made very clear in the BSA's Youth Protection Training. Anything in bold print in the Guide to Safe Scouting is a policy of the BSA, that means you must follow it. Failure to do so endangers the health and safety of our scouts, eliminates your liability protection umbrella provided by the BSA, opens you to permanent removal from the BSA, and could be grounds for civil or criminal prosecution related to your actions. The BSA is not kidding, they demand compliance with those policies. Information printed in standard type in the G2SS are recommended practices, but you must follow all policies in BOLD type. You also need to understand that you are not turning in the father you are protecting the child. One reason child abuse has grown to the level it has today (nearly 3 million cases every year) is the reluctance of adults to report other adults, while allowing the abuse of the child to continue. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bigdaddyal, If the leaders felt it was in violation of the Youth Protection Guidelines, did they notify the council Scout Executive and the local authorities as required by the BSA? Bob White

You are correct NJ it is used for the D in TLD. But to my knowledge it has never been used in adult training or across the board as we discussed. Bob

Ignore it Sager, There have been tens of thousands of excellent adult leaders in the BSA who were never boys. One of my parents was never a boy and she helped raise 5 sons, two are police officers, two are scout leaders and the youngest is an educator. She she also helped teach us that "boys will be boys" is a catch phrase adults use to avoid responsibility, and that the excuse "he made me do it" is no excuse at all. I am encouraged that most of the adults responding to this string did not try to make excuses or create imaginary "what if" scenarios. As maai wrote in the original post, the older boy admitted to his actions and to the language he used. After reading the rules of the G2SS it is inconceivable that anyone can conclude that this action is appropriate in any way to the activities of a scout program or determine that this offender is not a risk to the other scouts. Bob White (Not my real name but a partial profile has been posted since the day I joined this board) Ozemu and OGE have my real name and have my permission to share it with anyone who makes a $10,000 donation to either of their council's Friends of Scouting Campaign, in the form of a certified check or money order.

Raul, How often and for how long over theose six months du you meet? Is your Wood Badge only for Scoutmasters? Bob

While at Philmont training center this year there was a lot of conversation among the leaders about changing trining to Leadership Development. I realize that it is only a cosmetic change, but the specific words we use make a difference in the meaning we convey. Many leaders after attending the minimum training point to a trained strip and feel the no longer neeed to learn about leadership because they are "trained". many have not attended traing in decades. Leadership Development could help adults to realize that being a good leader is a continuous process. Knowledge and skills are journeys not final destinations. Bob White

eisely brings up a good point, if the leaders know the skill but do not know how to teach the skill it can be pretty pointless. We did two things to assist that. First we had every trainer take the Trainer Development BSA 500 course. Then we also drilled into the trainers to use proper instruction techniques for teaching adults. We then had a open discussion at the campfire about how children learn and discussed specific ways that these skills should be taught to scouts. That way it didn't cut into the program time during the day. And yes Fscouter it is still an overnighter. Some go Friday to late Saturday but most the trainers I have tlked to across the country go from early Saturday to late afternoon on Sunday. Bob White

AdvanceOn, ScoutNet is not the cure all everone hoped it would be. As I understand it here are the "quirks". ScoutNets membership data is not on a data base, it is on an Excel spreadsheet. If you have any knowledge of computers you can already see the problem. You can do sorts of the information but you are limited to 4 levels. In addition The whole nation is basically on one spread sheet so the sorts take awhile. National has very few servers so you end up waiting in line. Now if your council down loads the council info locally you still have the whole council on one spread sheet. In order to customize reports as you are asking for, someone in council would need to know how to export the council spreadsheet to Access as a comma deliniated file. Than after importing to Access they would need to create table relationships, build queries and run reports. There aren't that many councils I'd bet that have personnel knowledgable to do this. That is why they are responsible to record and maintain. It is the job of the Troop to verify completion before they send in the Advancement report. Bopb White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually btps at the Star to Life rank, as we are discussing with this young man, if he had Hiking, Cycling and Swimming he could count those as three Eagle required badges. It is not until after he receives Life and is working on Eagle that he can only count one as an Eagle required and the other two would be counted as electives. Hope that clarifies things. (and of course I should mention the reference....the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual) Bob White

Stan, perhaps if you saw each training course as a puzzle piece. If you change the shape of the piece it will no longer fit to complete the big picture. If every district or council is changing the content of the training is it any wonder there are so many misconceptions as to what scouting is. Continuity is what makes it a program. Bob

The council's job is to record and maintain advancement records. The unit's adult leadership including the advancement chair are responsible for verifying advancmnet before submitting the name of the scout to council. In the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" manual, the first responsibilitie listed for the unit's Board of review is "To make sure the Scout has done what he is required to do for the rank." That puts the responsibility squarely on the BOR. Bob White

Well some of you are probably wondered when or if I'd reply so I might as well do so now. I will apoligize in advance for the length of this post because you given me many things to respond to. First, Thanks to OGE for what I think was an effort to drum up any evidence of support for my participation on this board. The effort was unnecesary but appreciated. Secondly, thank you to those who appreciate or at the very least put up with my prose. Some comments were especially kind. Next, my demeanor as expressed in my posts. Some of you would be very surprised if you knew me as a scouter in my community or from my training courses. I am by know means known as a stern, unfriendly, no style rule quoter. Actually quite the opposite. I think the perception here comes from two things. I take much more of a counseling style in person, but that takes more time and space than this format allows. So for the sake of efficiency I cut right to the chase. A chat room would be more my personal style, I just can't type fast enough. Secondly is the content of most of the strings on this board and my responsibilities in scouting. Think of game of baseball with scouts as the players. There are specific rules that govern the game. They are in place so that all the teams are playing the same game. A player that switches teams knows that the rules will be the same at every game for every team in his league. Now think of the rules as BSA policies and procedures. The person responsible for upholding the rules is the umpire. He works for the league for the benefit of all the teams to make sure everyone follows the same rules. In scouting we call the Umpire a Commissioner. He or she is commissioned by the BSA to uphold the polices and regulations. Each team has a coaching staff, and although their style of play may vary they all have to keep within the rules of the game. Scout Leader Trainers are the heaqd coaches. If a player goes to another team even though the style of play may differ the rules are still the same rules as all other teams. The plays that take place during a game are varied in combination but there are a limited set of plays. How a team handles a play varies with the coaching staff (unit leaders), but success or failure is based on measurable achievemnets. You get on base or you don't you score or you don't. In scouting we have set methods that are part of the game in every troop or pack. There are different ways to combine the methods depending on the the skill level of the scouts. The game is the program of scouting. You achieve the three methods or you don't. I am a commissioner and a trainer. I am responsible for making sure the teams follow the rules and for teaching them a variety of ways to employ the methods. If and when posters talk about the methods of scouting, I can and have taken part in open discussion. But take a look at the vast majority of the posts on this site. Most the things discussed are policy related. There are very few posts that discuss various ways to employ the methods of scouting. So I have a responsibility when discussing the rules to say "here is what the rules are". I have never said "here is what I think the rule should be, or here are my rules". As others have pointed out I have made every effort to say "This is the rule and this is where you will find it". If your opinion is different than the rule I honestly don't care! If we were playing ball and your opinion is that it should be a 4 strikes to an out instead of three I wouln't care. You don't make rules and neither do I. You play by them and umpires uphold them. The last thing I'll offer, somewhat in my defense, as far as my frustration with some posters. I'm still what I consider a young man, mid 40s, but I have been in scouting quite awhile (over 32 years). I have learned through experience that there are three kinds of leaders. 1) Leaders who don't know the program but want to learn and do things right for the scouts. I have great patience and empathy for these people because all good leaders started this way. I will take as much time as they need to help them learn to deliver a quality scouting program. 2) Leaders who know the program and use it. My responsibility to them is to keep them motivated and up to date. I have great admiration for these people because they kept their promise and work to deliver a real scouting program. These are the people who accomlish the most and form the backbone of scouting. 3) Leaders who know the program but don't use it and people who don't know it and refuse to learn it. I put them in one group because they accomplish the same result. The destroy units, chase boys from scouting and deliver false advertising by wearing the uniform of a program that thay have no intention of delivering. I have no patience for these people and a few reside on this board. I have learned that no amount of urging, pleading, prodding or demanding will change them. To be blunt they waste the resources of the program and harm the name and mission of scouting. And I have no problem telling them so. These people hold on to units until they choke it to death and then blame parents, society, kids, anything but their own refusal to do the job correctly. Only 3 things end their reign, They die, the units die, or a someone trying to do it right ticks them off and they leave with big scene. Personally I only get any real satisfaction from the third. Lastly I want to say that for the parents, or scouts visiting this site, or for leaders wanting to do it right. Many of the posts make it sound like this is a difficult program filled with rules and obstacles. Heavily peppered with rude kids, lousy parents and costly poor quality uniforms and a predjudiced national council. IT JUST AIN'T SO! I have worked with hundreds of boys and I would let 99% marry my daughter (if I actually had one). I have found the vast majority of parents and guardians to be careing and helpful when asked correctly and given the tools to succeed. The only rules we have ever had was follow the Oath and Law and never do anything for a boy that a boy can do for himself. In the units I serve Scouts respect each other because they are respected. Parents help because they see the results we get. We don't count Eagles we measure character. I enjoy my role as a resource for those who want to learn and do it right. I accept my role as the rules guy for those who choose to see me that way. I would welcome conversations on employing the methods of scouting rather than the rules. And I worry about the welfare of the program in the hands of some. Your friend in scouting, Bob White

Careful with the level of skills you try to present lasvoyager. The goal of the course is to get these participants to the level of first class scouts in the areas of.. First Aid Woods Tools Compass Plant Identification Fire Building Cooking Health and Sanitation Camp set-up Packing a back pack Knots and lashing Most of these participants have no ex[erience or lots of experience doing it incorrectly. You will be challenged getting them to First Class. Save the fancier stuff for a 'Show and Do' event. Bob

Actually ignorance on the part of the troop committee is an excuse. National will not hold adult errors against the scout. this is the boy's program and they will be given the benefit of the doubt. (A 'tie goes to the runner' kind of rule) It is the troop advancement committee's responsibility to verify advancement. They sign the advancement approval, not the scout. Again, some people have talked about an appeal. THERER IS NO APPEAL. Appealate BORs take place when the troop refuses advancement. The troop in this case approved the advancement. The problem is at the national level and they have the last say. Keep the lines of communications open with council and national. Bob White