Bob White

Good questions again twocub dad. #1 most of WLOT is skill some is health and safety. #2 It is not one staff, it is two staffs that share a some program elements together. Not everything in IOLS is pertinent to webelos. So only the sections that are relative to both programs are shared. To have members of either program sit through classes or activities that they cannont use in there roles as leaders would be wasteful and boring. #3 The leader specific course has to assume a few things in order to make it work for tens of thousands. first it is not designed for someone to take all the courses iin a single year. The Tiger leader is unique in many aspects so it has its own course. Next year when that leader has a Wolf den things change in the program so the istruction changes. That means thge leader will not return for two years when they go to Webelos. Some things are repeated becuase they are the same and the leader has not heard them in two years. Other things are added such as the changes in advancement and again the leader does not return to basic for at least 18 months. Then they go to SM Leader specific, and entirely new set of info. Taken all the same year of course they will seem redundant. Taken over the period they are designed for they compliment each other. Each builds on past information and experiences. Why would a second year webelos leader take WLOT? I have to ask instead Why didn't the leader take it as a first year Webelos Leader when they needed it. Finally if your Pack Committee course didn't cover the items you mentioned then the instructor didn't follow the training syllabus, because that info was supposed to be covered. I know because I've taught it. I have been through at least 4 generations of leader training program since becomming a leader and although no single course or curriculum will fit 100% of the adults in our program, this is by far an improvement over the earlier versions. The quality of the training experience still relies heavily on the quality of the trainer. Keep asking questions its good to get some of these anxieties aired and hopefully understood. Bob

I never said that "provocation" would legitimize the behavior of the older boy. That was never implied by anyone Your right Rooster. What has been implied though is that provocation would lessen the punishment of the the offending boy. My point is that his actions were totally his own, provoked or not, and must stand on there own. He did what he did and his punishment need only be based on that. How can you provoke someone to steal your chair? How can you provoke someone someone to to say the things this scout said. What could any one have done to make him choose the phrases and actions he chose. The older boy had the other scouts property that is the provoking action, not the younger scout demanding it back in whatever terms he chose to use. It was his property he has a right to defend it. How can provocation be done by the offended party? It has been implied that the younger scout asked for it. How does one ask to have his property taken? "I dare you to not give it back to me?" If the younger scout did anything or sais anything that was unscoutlike to get his property returned you might have an argument that his was provoked by the theft. But how does the guy who took it get to blame the scout? To say "we still don't know if the younger scout did anything to provoke the situation." harkens back to the days when men who molested women would say, "but look how she dresse, she asked for it" Provocative behavior is not related to the crime. The person makes the choice to ignore the provocation or take an action. This older boy took action and his offense is his alone. The actions of the scout are immaterial. Bob

rooster7, I do not disagree at all that the scout may have said or done something at any point to his offender. What I strongly disagree with is the the use of the term or the idea of "provocation". The offending boy of his own choice and free will took property that was not his, kept property that was not his and made lewd and sexual comments and forced lewd action on another person. You cannot be provoked to do that. You either CHOOSE or choose not to do that. The offender chose his actions. Whatever his reasoning for choosing them does not legitimize them. If the victim did anything unscoutlike then that is to his own personal detriment and reflects only to his own behaviour, but it does not reduce the inappropriate behaviour of the offending boy. Bob

But rooster7 If someone steals your property and you strike out against him then he is the provoker not you. If someone pulls a knife and threatens you, Is there anyhting you can do or say that after he stabbed you he could turn to a judge and say "well he provoked me!" I would hope you would agree that offender created the situation. From that point on he alone is responsible for the outcome. Bob White

All good questions twocubdad, I feel I can answer this accurately because of my training background. I'd rather not go into detail on it but I'll say that I have worked on scout leader training on a national level and ask that you trust me from there. Adcanced training (Wood Badge) allows you to use the information you gain at basic and supplementaru training and put them to the optimal use through good leadership and management techniques. That is why the completetion of basic training in a scouting leadership role is a prerequisite for attending Wood Badge. Supplementary Training such as Baloo, Webelos Leader Outdoor Training, Pow Wow, Roundtable, Scout Leader Units of Training, each have a specific function with unique information and directed at specific goals. Completion or participation in the Basic training courses are not required for attending supplemental courses. Baloo and Webelos Leader Outdoor Training are not interchangeable. The reason is that Baloo has far more health and safety training and very little outdoor skill. Cub Family Camping should not include many of the elements used in Boy scout camping, and some of these elements are introduced in the WLOT. WLOT is similar in some aspects of the new Introduction to Outdoor Leaders Skills session of the Scoutmaster training continuum. However WLOT also includes instruction on how to teach the webols outdoor activity programs like readyman, geologist, naturalist etc. This program specific information is not covered in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. So a Webelos Leader would not get the cub program assistance needed. National has tested and produced a new WLOT syllabus that is due for release sonn. I do not have a specific date. It runs concurrent to the Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills program and shares some class time and activity time with the Boy scout leaders. Since WLOT is mostly skill training and BALOO is mostly administrative, one course does not replace the other. Basic Training now called Leader Specific Training is designed as a continuum, in that the training adjusts as you change in your scouting positions. A new Boy Scout fast Start has recently been released and a new Cub Scout Fast Start is due to be released very soon. It is a great tool for orienting new leaders but according to a presentation put on by the Director of Boy Scout Training Division, it is not required for earning your trained strip. Your trained leader strip is earned by attending New Leader Essentials, the Leader Specific training for your position in scouting, and in the case of scoutmasters The Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills program. Once you have taken NLE you are not required to take it again. When you take any new leadership role you would just need to take the Leader Speecific portion to retain your trained status (and IOLS if you are a SM or ASM) There is no moving up or down in adult scouting positions. So qualifying for one does not qualify you for another. Any movement within a program committee is lateral and does not require additional training. The same for moving between Scoutmaster and asst. Scoutmaster. Much of this information can be found in the Council and District Training Committee manual which your district training chairperson should have. I hope this addressed your questions. Bob White

2funny2cubdad

First, let me apologize for all the underscores. I couldn't get my edit function to work. That was not how I intended my last post to look. I had tried to highlight the several areas thet read "Through volunteers". James that could very well be the case. really good de's get the job done through volunteers that they help guide. The best leaders are the who when the job is finished the people they lead say "we did it ourselves". None the less he or she is evaluated by their supervisors on the growth of members, manpower and money. Program quality is in the hands of the volunteers. Bob

I agree with scoutnut (with one exception Wood Badge is advanced training not supplemental). You don't wnat or need seat fillers. Determine specific tasks that need to be done asd ask specific people to do it. The whole reason behind the new training continuum is Leaders Specific Training. As your job changes you need to go to the session specific to your new position. Consider offering Training at your meeting place. We did New Leader essentials during a troop meeting night for the committee and all interested parents, it only takes 90minutes. Then we did a lock-in night for the scouts and did the 3-hour troop committee challenge for the committee and potential committee members. 15 adults completed both sessions. Work with your district training chair to corrdinate this. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" BP Best of luck, Bob White

Rooster7, I believe that courts long ago stopped giving weight to the "but he(she) asked for it" defense. Can you imagine a mugger saying to a judge "I didn't mean to steal her purse but she provoked me." Even second degree murder by definition does not base its charge on provocation. Here is a definition from a law lexicon. In order for someone to be found guilty of second degree murder the government must prove that the person killed another person; the person killed the other person with malice aforethought; and the killing was premeditated. so you see provocation by the victim is not even mentioned. Can you image this defense? "It was self-defense Your Honor. The boy tried to take back his chair that I took." "All I wanted was to keep his property but he provoked me!" Anyway you cut it the owner of the chair was the victim. Any action he took was caused by the older boy taking and refusing to return the scouts property. Is it any wonder that boys are hesitant to talk t adults if we are going to look for guilt within the victim. Bob White

Ed, I am curious as to what bearing any provocation on the victims part has in this case. The offending scout was keeping the victims property. If someone stole your wallet and you demanded it back in the strongest of terms, at what point does that you make you the criminal? Also at what point does your your opinion of the offender relinquish them of their responsibility to behave in a an appropriate manner. Had the the older scout not taken property that wasn't his, or had he returned it when asked would this event have even taken place? What could the younger scout have possibly said that could have robbed the older boy of his free will. He chose the assaulting words and actions, no one put them in his mouth and made him say them. Anything beyond "thanks for letting me use your chair" was a bad choice...HIS bad choice. Or am I missing somthing that would exonerate this boy?

Well said OGE.

Hi yarrow, I had written "Split between two people it is just under 3lbs each in packed weight, and costs under $60." Check it out at www.campmor.com I think they have it for $59. Bob

Your right ASM7 and I should have made myself more clear. What I was trying to say that scouts can all be in a correct uniform and not all look exactly the same. The uniform certainly does develop a sense of belonging, a sense of team, a sense of community. But those can all be accomplished with some in shorts, some in long sleeve shirt some in short sleeve, or even Troop shirts and everyone in a different neckerchief. I was trying to say that there are lots of ways to personalize a uniform and still accomplish the goals, but you need to be in a fulll, correct uniform to achieve all the benefits. That the uniform should not be BSA just down to the belt and expect to get the same benefits. Thanks for pointing out my errors of ommission and for giving me an opportunity to clarify my point. Bob

Which trained professionals? And people who report will be marked as what, "reporters", "responsible citizens"? If you are sure there are only a "few" Americans who trust them perhaps you could name them. They are an awfully busy few people since last year there were over 3,000,000 cases of child abuse in the USA alone, and every one of them was reported by someone.

My points still stand Venturer2002, We agree that even if this was bullying at the very least, it should have gone to a meeting between the troop committtee, the scout, and his parents, but it did not. The leaders told the scout not to do it again and that is not enough. Your certification is praise worthy but it does not qualify you to overrule notifying the council scout executive. If a lawsuit follows and you have not notified the SE you will have forfeited your liability and legal protection for yourself and your charter organization. A costly mistake. The reporting steps and G2SS policies are there to protect the scout, the leaders and the CO, but they can only do that if they are followed. By the leaders in maai's troop simply telling the scout not to do it again they endanger the other scout's saftey and the finances of the leaders and CO. Where does that put the bully? What would be last on your list of priorities? Is he worth a leader losing a lifesavings over. is he worth the health of a scout? Is he worth losing youth members over. Is he worth the lawsuit. he is definetly worth saving but that is best done by services outside our area of program. Scouting is for every boy, but not every boy is for scouting. "Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored." Guide to Safe Scouting The vast majority of scout leaders are not social workers or psychologists. That is not what we do or what the programs purpose is. If the scout wants to participate and benefit from the program all we ask is that he behaves as a scout. If this scout is at least one or two years older, and has been warned of his behavior before as maai says he has then he knew what was expected of him and still did not behave in anyway remotely resembling scouting. It is time for the unit to seriously consider the undue burden to others caused by this scout and take some kind of action following the scouting regulations. Wouldn't you agree? Bob White

Ok Venturer2002, If you think that this is only bullying and not sexual misconduct, let me ask this. What is your background for determining this and for your evaluation that the boy needs counseling? Bear in mind that you are making a decision that has legal ramifacations for you, and the chater organization. My point is you do not have the training or educational background to make that evaluation. Nor do have have the authority to make a decision that could result in leagal action against your charter organization. By failing to follow the policies stated in the G2SS you nullify the liability coverage and legal protection that would have been provided to you and the CO by the BSA had you followed the policies. Since everyone seems to agree that at the very least this is bullyinghere is Websters definition of bullying: 1 : to treat abusively 2 : to affect by means of force or coercion add the sexual nature of the scouts attack and you will see that this is indeed sexual misconduct. By the way I believe what was said is that you must, by scoutings policies,notify the Scout Executive (not the police). I appreciate that the boy likely needs counseling. However if you think he will get it because you suggest it to him or to his parents, life doesn't work that way. It will take a higher athority than a scoutleader to get this young man the help he needs. Until then you have a responsibility to the boys willing to behave as scouts to protect their health and safety. That includes protecting them from this "bully". Your feelings are honorable but you have a responsibility to follow the rules. Bob White

Here is what the BSA says about professional scouter at www.bsa.scouting.org The professional Scouter in an entry-level position is assigned to a district or service area within a local council. The job responsibilities are broad and varied. Duties include promoting, supervising, and working in the district or service area through volunteers. Different aspects of the professional Scouter's job include: Sales. The professional Scouter is responsible, through volunteers, for extending Scouting to religious, civic, fraternal, educational, or other community-based organizations. Service. Major emphasis is placed on service. The professional staff ensures that all Scouting units are served through volunteer commissioners, regular roundtable meetings, training events, and activities. Finance. The professional Scouter has responsibility for securing adequate financial support for Scouting in the assigned area. Working with volunteers, professionals recruit leadership for the Friends of Scouting and finance campaign efforts to meet the financial needs of the council. Administration. The professional Scouter administers the Scouting program in the assigned district or service area. Public Relations. Professional Scouters must recognize the importance of good working relationships with other professionals and with volunteers. Scouting depends on community support and acceptance. Professional leaders must have good communication skills and be able to tell Scouting's story to the public. (I added the underscores) I believe the current national figures for the number of units that achieve the Quality Unit Award is less than 60%. keep in mind that this award reflects the MINIMUM activity that a unit should be accomplishing. Yet if you look at that list of requirements, every item is in the complete control of the unit leaders. There is nothing that makes fo a quality unit program that the DE or any other professional has any authority over. The program is in the hands of the volunteers of the unit District and Council. The fact is if you show me a DE who is loved by all the community but is not increasing the number of units, membership, and finances; I will show you a soon to be unemployed DE. But if the De's numbers are growing, they will be promoted without whether or not they are popular, because they are getting their job done. Bob White

Venturuer2002, This is a good training moment for a scouter of your age. 1) If you agree it is bullying what would you have done? 2) Forget sexual molestation, reread the content of the first post and tell me if you think there was misconduct and if that misconduct had a sexual content. 3) Reread the portion of the Guide to safe Scouting, and describe the actions required for bullying and for sexual misconduct. Bob White

YIKES! I typed that last one as I was headed out the dorr. let's try again.... Red Feather, I'm surprised that would be allowed on a Wood Badge ticket. There is no such thing as a Class A , or Class B uniform. This has been discussed in previous strings. There is a Field Uniform and an Activity Uniform. The standards of each are set by the BSA. You are either in uniform or out of uniform but there is no class B. Check the Boy Scout Handbook and Patrol Leaders Handbook for details. No unit or individual has the authority to change the uniform standards. Bob White

Red Feather, I'm surprised that that would be allowed on a woodbadge ticket. There is no such thing as a Class A , or Class B uniform. This has been discussed in previous strings. There is a Field Uniform and an Activity Uniform. The standards of each are set by the BSA. You are either in uniform or out of uniform but there is no class B. Check the Bot Scout Handbook and Patrol Leaders Handbook for details. No unit or individual has the authority to change the uniform standards. Bob White

Troops and boy scouts may wear whatever neckerchief they want, but the uniform rules for Cub Scouts say they must wear the neckerchief of rank. The BSA does not expect everyone to agree with every rule. They do expect the volunteer leaders to follow the rules and to teach the scouts to follow the rules. Bob white

The difference is exactly what you said it is. BOTH need be be dealt with according to the policies of scouting. ONE is controlled by state law and you and your local council office must abide by the procedures established by your State government. It is not scouting that says you have to report suspicion of abuse it is your state law. If you want to report a scout using a racial slur go ahead. But you had better do something about it within the unit according to the scouting policies as well. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The guidelines for spending unit funds are outlined in the Pack Leaders Handbook and the Troop committee Guidebook. In the Troop Committee guide book pg.15 it says under duties for Treasurer: "Handle all troop funds. Pay bills on the recommendation of the Scoutmaster and authorization of the troop committee." On Pg 23 under Troop Bank Account it says among other tings " An account that requires two signatures on each check, those of the committee Treasurer and Scoutmaster, is recommended. Two sebtences later it says "Disbursements are made on the recommendation of the Scoutmaster and authorization of the troop committee." I hope this helps. If I have misrepresented the facts in any way I apologize. Sheepishly and with great humility, Bob White

Raul, If a participant wants to send you copies of anything they have that is OK. But the trainers syllabus is one of the few, if not the only, syllabus that is copyrighted by the BSA. Not even the faculty gets to keep a trainers manual once the course is over. No copies of the manual are allowed to be made. Sorry, Bob White

ScoutParent, I'm sorry you did'y care for me comparing the appropriatness of the district finance committe with the postman. The fact is that you asked for my recommendations, did not follow them and did not get the results you wanted. I'm soory things did not work out fir you but that is hardly my fault. The District finance committe deals with fundraising only. They have no authority within a unit's finance. as you saud I give the location of the resourses where anyone can find the answers. Don't like the answers, don'y slay the messenger. As far as uniforming I told you the truth. the new handbooks have new information that expands information from the Scout Handbook and the BS Leader Essentials Training. The books are NEW. They came out in my council after my original post. I admitted the information I shared changed and addressed the changes. I don't know what more you expect? As far as # 2 you wanted an answer that didn't exist. You wanted to hear that the troop could not do what they wanted with the funds. That's not the case and you didn't like the answer. I can't make up rules just to please you. Did your troop treat your son fairly? Absolutely not and I made that quite clear. Did the troop violate any BSA policies? Sorry No. Did you follow my recommendations for a solution? No. Did you get the outcome you wanted? No. ScoutParent you are angry at the wrong person. Bob White