Bob White

What I can't figure out is if you have 8 patrols with 8 patrols leaders then what the heck do you need 8 assistant senior patrol leaders for???

Who said that we talked to anyone other than the Scoutmaster? Who said any scout ducked their responsibility? We were removed from our offices! We said to the SM "that's not your job"...guess what...he disagreed. He was no more willing to learn what the program actually was than you are. " Had the boys stayed with the original approach of boy-led, patrol-method, they wouldn't have needed any training." Who do you think taught the skills to the youth? Who do you think teaches the older scouts how to teach the younger ones? If you don't do anything that is of value to the troop you serve then why do they need you? How many other registered adults in the unit you serve jblake. In fact why does that unit have any adults at all? Now that your scouts are trained, according to you, they should be self-sufficient from now until kingdom come. Shouldn't they? The boys didn't give up, when it was a scouting program we wanted to belong, when it was no longer a scouting program it held no interest for us. A a scoutmaster the scouts we served experienced a scouting program. One that was you planned, and youth led. And they got that experience because they had trained adults who understood and followed the program and taught the scouts how to do it. Had my last scoutmaster come in and done nothing it would have been better for awhile, but the reason that he did what he did was that he did not know the BSA program. And the reason it worked before him wasn't that the previous SM did nothing, but becasue he only did his job, and taught us how to do ours. If the scouts you serve are not learning anything from you then what the heck are you doing there? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That's fascinating jblake. then maybe you can explain something for me. True Story As a Scout I was in a troop with 65+ scouts that operated by the Ptrol method. Most of our activities were by patrol. At Troop meetings were fpormed up gave patrol reports to the Senior patrol leader. Had a skill instruction form a community professional on a topic we chose at pour monthly TLC (Troop leaders council bcak then), then we had Patrol meetings, followed by a troop wide game where we competed as patrols. When we were not on patrol activities we would go on troop activities by patrol, we camped out of sight of other patrols, we had our own menu, our own patrol gear, everyone in the patrol had a patrol office, we elected our own patrol leader. Sound like a scouting program? Then our scoutmaster changed. He did'like how we walked in our last parade and so for the first mohth of troop meeting we marched at the troop meeting and did parade turns. No patrol meting, no patrol reports, no troop campouts oir patrol activities, we marched. The next month started with the new SM reorganizing patrols, naming the new patrol leaders, (his not yet Tenderfoot son became mine) new junior troop leaders assigned by him. The scouts asked when the next TLC would be and he said when he decided and no sooner. We ased when the next outing would be and he said when he decided. At that moment 45 of us walked out the door ans sat in the parking lot for an hour waiting for the parents to pick us up, within two years a troop that was 25 years old when I left and disbanded. Tell me Jblake what killed that troop? The ability of the scouts to know and use the Patrol Method. or was it the lack of skills and abilities of the new untrained Scoutmaster? Because to this day we all thought it was him. Tell us how it wasn't, and how our success had nothing to do with the methods and skills taught us by the previous SM. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Yes, youre right, I did suggest it because it would appear to me that it is the next logical step." So once we have determined what the OA says in their current handbook, you think the next "logical step" is to tell an Eagle Scout at his Court of Honor to take off his OA Sash???? What possible "logic" is there in that behavior. I would have thought the next logical step would be to train new OA members in the proper customs and courtesies for wearing the sash. Since nothing in the BSA...in any training...or in any resources... has EVER suggested what you suggested how could it possibly be the next LOGICAL step? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

So are you suggesting that a troop can operate just fine with an untrained scoutmaster but that if a trained Scoutmaster comes in then the program wil tank? But I thought said the quality of the scoutmaster did not matter?

BadenP You used to be a professional scouter for nearly 6 years. You should know of all posters what is or isn't in the resources of the BSA. Patrol Activities have been supoported and taught through the history of the BSA. There have always been parents and there have always been lawyers and yet the BSA Still teaches Patrol Activities. What Kudu refers to is what he thinks and does, not what the BSA teaches or supports. As someone who used to be a professional you should realize that there are units who follow the program and units that do not and rarely do the units that follow the program fail. At the PTC conference you refer to when the other SMs showed that they did not know the Patrol Method, the contents of the Handbook or of BSA training, why did you not speak up and show them that the first Scoutmaster was following the program? I am sure he would have appreciated your support, and certainly as someone who used to be a professional for almost 6 years you knew that what he was doing was part of the BSA program? Why did you not help the others to better understand and deliver the program? That to me is the sad state of scouting, that you would know someone was doing the right thing but you chose not to help them.

I see, and the boys will just naturally know what to do and how to do it because they learned it where? So are you saying that Baden-Powell didn'y actuallt teach the scouts? And who taught the first course on leadership skills to Adults? Wasn't it Baden-Powell? To say that the only effect that a scoutmaster brings to the table is his philosophy of leadership style is an interesting statement. If he isn't supposed to share that with anyone then why does it make a difference. If a leader that is untrained just has to stay out of the way, then how does he or she know that if they have never been taught it? So you think that a tropp can function as a Scouting program if we just gather a bunch of kids of various ages together, and a couple adults who have never been trainend and tell them to stay out of the youth's way? You can't be serious?

The passage I was thinking of is actually in the Boys Scout Handbook, and it does say that with the permission of the Scoutmaster a Boy with Arrow of Light can be given the Scout Badge. the Scoutmaster Handbook recommends the Scoutmaster have a scoutmaster conference with a scout who has the AOL as soon as possible, even before the scout attends his first meeting, so that he can receive his Scout Badge the first night. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual says that the Webelos Badge and the AOL contain all the requirements for earning the Scout Badge including the Scoutmasters conference. So there is a lot of support that a Cub with the AOL upon registering with a troop has met all the joining requirements and has earned the Scout Badge. Remember this is not a rank, this is a symbol of joing the Boy Scouts. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

two things to consider pack15nissan, one is that the Guidelines for Age Appropriate Activiites does not "prohibit" any activity for any age group. It's guidlines not policies. the policies are in the Guide to Safe Scouting not in the the Guidelines for Age Appropriate Activities. treks are not "recommended" for Cubs, they are not prohibited. Second, what is the purpose of the trip? The bike is just the mode of transportation, where are yu going and why. if the only purpose is to ride a bike, then can't the scouts stay at home and ride bikes? In Scout leader training we talk about "hiking for a purpose" and biking is just a type of hiking, it's transportation, what is the attraction that you will use to inspire the Cub to participate?

Are you suggesting that the same leadership skills cannot be used indoors or outdoors? If you taught leadership skills outdoors would the scout no longer to have the ability to lead if he stepped inside a structure? You do realize that leadership development does not just happen at one point in time, but is a continual process that includes formal and informal instruction...right?

And even then the ideals of each program are not identical. So if the forum were to follow Its Me's suggesstion it would need to add 22 new categories.

But Kudu....The Scoutmaster Handbook, the Patrol Leaders Handbook, the Boy scout Handbook, The Guide to Safe Scouting, The Scoutmaster Specific training...all endorse and support independent patrol activities. Why do you always suggest that this is a missing element of the Scouting program when it is in nearly every Boy Scout related training and resource??? I agree it is missing in too many unit programs, but that is a local leadership issue. If they knew and followed the BSA program they would be using Patrol activities.

But Its Me, those aren't the Methods of Scouting! Those are just the just the Methods for Boy Scouting....what about the Methods for Cub Scouting, and the Methods for Venturing?

And Kudu where exactly does the BSA not support the importance of outdoor activity?

Ursus, Follow me on this because I may not be the only confused on this. You wrote..."Anyone that should come into one of my Troop's Eagle Courts of Honor to tell any of our Scouts, certainly the new Eagle, that he can't wear his OA Sash will politely but firmly be asked to sit down and be quiet or they can leave." So I asked you..."Who said anything about telling a Scout at his Eagle Court to remove his OA sash?" And you replied..."Nobody has" But yeah, somebody did...You did! The thread was about wearing the OA sash and merit badge sash correctly. Up to the point of your post the only thing being discussed was what the OA said the instruction were for wearing the sash. A related conversation was 'what was an appropriate resources for that information', the current handbook or what was in a handbook 30 and 40 years ago. AT NO POINT did anyone other than you suggest telling a scout at his Eagle court to take off his OA sash. So why throw that in to the conversation??? No poster suggested doing that, and nothing in any BSA resource suggests or instructs anyone to do that. How was that germane to the conversation? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As a consumer if I had a choice the soon to be old uniformn would need to be at least 40% off for me to consider bying it. At 25% off the difference between the new and the soon to be old is less than $20. That wouldn't be a big enough savings for me to go with the soon to be old one. (thats based on a shirt, pants, socks, and belt)

ursus, Who said anything about telling a Scout at his Eagle Court to remove his OA sash? I cannot find anyone in any post suggesting that. What made you make such a inference?

What a coincidence GW, I was thinking the same thing about your post.

Adults in Boy Scouts do not do a diservice. Adults who do not know, or no not follow the BSA program do the scouts a disservice.

IOLS is about learning and learning how to teach the Boy Scout skills required for advancement through the First Class rank and has NOTHING to do with the purpose of OWL or BALOO. While there are a few skill topics that are in both OWL and IOLS they are at different skill levels.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Lisabob wrote as an urban legend.."*Boys who earned AoL don't have to do the Scout requirements when they join Boy Scouts" That is not an urban legend. According to the Scoutmaster handbook that is true.

Then you agree there are a number of ways that the Sea Scout uniform differeentiates itself from a naval uniform without the need to wear improper elements such as knots, OA devices, and temporary patches that are specifically prohibited. I did not say that the council strip was forbidden. I said that the Handbook's uniform instructions from the National committee that determines the correct uniform only places it on some uniform pieces. The adult khaki work uniform is NOT one of the pieces that the council strip is designated to go onto. I did not make the rules, I simple compared what you said you do compared to what the Sea Scout program said is correct. You tell us which you feels promotes more urban legends, what the current handbooks says, or what leaders do because they "feel" they are right?

The situation you describe has nothing to do with the role of parents but is a matter of poor adult leadership. the Scoutmaster, and the other adults, do not understand the Scouting program. it has nothing to do with whether or not they are parents. I understand that you "feel" the Scouting program is what you say it is, however the BSA seems to see it differently. They say that their program is about teaching young people to make ethical decisions throughout their lifetime based on the values of the Scout Oath and law. Parental involvement is not going to hinder that as long as everyone is trained and understands the methods of the program they are in.

"The Place where Scouting works best is where patrols most want to be-in the outdoors. Patrol members who spend the time together outdoors share responsibilities, grow personally, and have plenty of fun-filled adventures. Outdoors is the best setting for Scouts to learn skills,to challenge themselves and to practice respect of natural resources." excerted for the CURRENT Patrol Leaders Handbook, page 69, and is the introduction to the section on leading Patrol Activities. It woukd seem that the BSA still sees outdoor leadership as the core part of patrol leadersip, just as it has always been. And again while Kudu "thinks" tat what he is doing is radical and that the BSa is wrong, he continues to do what the BSA says is the BSa program. He simply does not know what the current program actual says so he has no idea that he is actually following it for the most part. His gripes are really leaa about what the BSA program is and more about what he thinks it is. I believe if he knew the current prrogram better he would have less hostility toward it and more affinity with it.

Thanks for the ditty but this is still about how misinformation weeds it way into appearing as the truth. Certainly when those responsible for training (as in the case OGE shared and in the examples of the Seabadge trainers) teach what they "feel" the program should be rather than what the rogram is, it adds to the problem of urban legends being born and being spread. OGE is right that the learners come to training with a high level of trust that what they see and learn will be correct. When trainers do not teach what is in the syllabus and handbooks but instead teach what they "feel" is the way to do it then that trust is betrayed.