Bob White

Scoutmaster Ron, Check out the Boy Scout handbook, The Scoutmaster handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting. All of them say that a patrol, with the permission of the scoutmaster, can go on hikes and overnight camping on their own with no adult supervision. This has been an element of the patrol method since the beginning of the boy scout program. The leadership skills required of the scoutmaster to develop boy leaders and use of the patrol method can make this possible. But the group described by Quixote in his post is not a patrol. it is not even a troop by the description, it's just a bunch of scouts. And that is not a safe or efficient way for any aspect of the program to work. As I wrote in my first response, had these been three patrols leaving in staggered time there would not neccesarrily be an adult needed with the first group, little supervision for the second and direct supervision for the third. The amount of adult presence is determined by the skill level of the patrol. I recently had a new scout patrol of 8 boys going on a five mile map and compass hike. A parent wanted the adults with the boys the entire way. It was a fairly simple route around the end of a lake. At each mile interval the route would pass a parking lot area. The boys had radio contact with us the whole way. Two adults met them at each mile with fresh water (it was a very hot day). We were confident the boys would be fine and they were never more than a half mile from us. They finished the hike feeling like they had climbed everest. They also grew in teamwork and in sel-confidence. We gave just enough supervision to keep them safe yet let them feel like they had done it alone. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

That wasn't me Rooster. I have always said that the requirement DOES NOT say hold an office..It says ACTIVELY SERVE. The scout needs to fullfill the duties of the office to qualify. bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is a good example for the need for the patrol method. If we were looking at one group of 12 to 13 the group is too big for a youth leader to effectively manage,scouts are too spread out for the leader to know the condition of each scout, the physical differences from oldest to youngest make it unlikely that all would have the same capabilities of speed and endurance. I would not send a group like this out even with two adults. However if this were three patrols, a Venture Patrol made up of the Eagle, life and Star scouts, Regular patrol of the Ist Class scouts and a New Scout patrol of the new scouts. I would send the New scouts out first with two adults and a Troop Guide and possibly only do 1/2 the distance(go 2 or 3 miles out and then come back). Next send the Venture Patrol out with no adults, followed by the regular patrol with two adults at the back within sight. That way you have adults riding clean-up should any adults be needed, but they stay out of the patrol leaders way and are not seen at all by the Venture scouts. Different levels of skills and experiences require different levels of adult supervision. You cannot run a troop as a single group. It is a gathering of patrols, each with its own unique needs. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

O:00-15 minutes pre-opening activity (while SM and SPL confer) 0:00 Opening ceremony 0:03 Patrol reports 0:10 break out by New-Regular-Venture patrols Skill presentations 0:30 Skill Game by patrol 0:40 Troop Game 1:00 Patrol meetings 1:20 Announcements and recognitions 1:28 Closing ceremony 1:30 Adjourn (SM SPL and PLs evaluate) Bob White

Pack committee operations is in the Cub Scout Leader Book #WW33221B $7.95 Bob White

I'm glad we entertain you sst3rd:) You raise a good point, in that the requirements are flexible. But I think variable might be a better word. In that the requirement is the same for each scout. They must each provide evidence of living the values of scouting in everyday life, but those values can be displayed in many different ways. I also agree with OGE (in a way) that a scout with a leadership role is another story. I had a scout who was a patrol leader that missed almost every meeting for months due to sports. He was a terrific young man, active in school and community. When he came up for advancement I signed his scout spirit because he displayed the scouting characteristic however I did not sign his leadership requirement because he did not do his job and he knew it. So attendance played no role in whether or not he had the spirit of scouting. I know young people who are not even scouts whose behavior reflects the values of scouting. On the other hand I had a scout who was an SPL during wrestling season. He missed several troop meetings but phoned me frequently to share his troop meeting plans and kept in constant touch with his assistant SPL who ran the troop meetings. Things ran very smoothly in his absence but it was very clear he was in control. I signed his leadership requirement despite his absenteeism because he fullfilled the requirement. He actively served in his role as SPL. You can be a good scout and be involved in other activities. The two need not be mutually exclusive. You need to look at each scout individually. Making attendance rules that don't exist in scouting, blinds leaders to the individuality of the boy and relieves the leader of the responsibility of knowing the boy. Instead the rule makes the decision regardless of the needs and characteristics of the boy. The more artificial rules the leaders make the less leadership they actually provide. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Troopmeetings should definitely encourage merit badges work but it is not the place to enable it. When you have a small mix of scouts separate to work with a merit badge copunselor you break up the patrols. Scouts need to enable their own advancement trail by contacting and meeting MB counselors outside of the troop meeting setting. Troop meetings are for the scouts to learn, plan, and develop patrols. The troop meeting program should expose the scouts to merit badge opportunities and can even teach some merit badge skills but work with the counselor should be done outside of the troop meeting in order to get the greatest amount of growth and development offered by the advancement program. Bob White

ED, read what I posted! I said you cannot judge a boys entire life by his attendance at troop meetings. There is more to who they are than that 90minutes a week. I realize you only see them at troop meetings. Consider talking to them when they are there. Learn about their lives. What are their interests, what are their favorite subjects in school, what else are they involved in? Where else do they practice leadership? Are they involved at church. What do they do to keep physically fit? If you knew what their life was like away from the troop meetings you would learn if they lived their lives by the Oath and Law. So NO Ed, I never said Scouting was not part of their every day life. I said Troop meetings are a very small part of their every day life. You as the SM need to take an interest in the rest of their week and understand who these boys are. Bob White

OOPS! Sorry sctmom, I should have checked that first. I thought the AOL requirements matched the scout badge requirements. Fooled me! Bob

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Read it again but slower Ed. I said "The requirement says that Scout spirit is how the scout lives the values of scouting in his everday day life. It does NOT say "how he lives the values while at troop meetings only". I also said there are more things in a scouts life than troop meetings and that if the scouts regularly find other activities more fun to go to than troop meetings then that is your problem not theirs. Bob White

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Combine activities. Hike to an historical landmark, bike to a museum, canoe a river and have some scouts prepare a report on the historical importance of the route or surrounding area. Bob White

Sager, Emergency planning is covered in the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills weekend course. Bob White

Shiela, Memorization of the Oath and Law is not a requirement for the Scout Badge. Bob White

It is technically possible though highly unlikely that a boy could reach Eagle in 18 months or less. The reason is that accept for a 30-day timeline for a fitness requirement there is no waiting period in the Tenderfoot to First Class ranks. Scout is not a rank by the way, it is a badge that signifies the boy has met the joining requirements. Tenderfoot is the first rank of Boy Scouting. Bob White

"Does poor attendance at Troop meetings indicate the Scouts loyality to the Troop?" No, more likely it indicates boring troop meetings or that the scout has a life that includes multiple interests (something that we encourage scouts to have). The requirement says that Scout spirit is how the scout lives the values of scouting in his everday day life. It does NOT say "how he lives the values while at troop meetings only". Scouting is not meant to be a boys entire life. it is meant to support the positive skills and character he will use in his life. You cannot gig a scout on advancement for having a full life or being able to make choices. If the troop meetings and activities are not the most fun thing a boy can choose to do then that's your problem not his. Also, I recently went back & checked the records of our last 7 Eagles and none of them were 1st Class in their 1st year. SO WHAT? The Eagle scout rank is not the goal or purpose of scouting. The only advancement goal mentioned in the Scout Handbook and other BSA resources is First Class near the first year. Why? because you can't teach them character, citizenship, and fitness if you don't keep them in the troop. So let's say you had 7 eagles in 5 years. How many boys have quit the troop in the last 5 years? How many of them never made it to First Class? Would you rather have 30 scouts all First Class to Life, or 12 scouts with 7 Eagles. The Eagle Scout Rank is a personal accomplishment for the scout. It is not a measurement of the quality of the troop. First Class Emphasis is a program element of scouting, it is a job assignment for Assistant Scoutmaster, it is tied to the Patrol Method and gives function to the junior leadership position of Troop Guide, it is the ONLY rank that is a prerequisite for participating in high adventure activities and it strongly effects membership retention. Tenderfoot to First Class is where we lay the foundation for all three aims of the scouting program. First Class is important to the success of the Troop and Patrol program. Bob White

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But Ed, what is of great importance is what IS written in the scout handbook. The handbook says that scout spirit is how the scout lives the Law and Oath in his every day life. Knowing and following the program is not the part that is mindless. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ron wrote Sounds like this question is Proffesional Baseball a business or a sport? is there really one answer? Ron, Baseball as a game is a sport. A professional baseball team however is a business. There is a person or persons who loses or makes money depending on the profitability of the business. There are assets whose sales would contribute to the income of specific inividalus. In scouting no one person's wealth rises or falls as money is generated or spent. So yes there is an answer, there are organizations who se goal is to increase profits for personal gain and those that are not for profit agencies that use funds to expand services to others. Scouting is a non for profit organization. I had never heard of the BSA supplies profits going to the professionals retirement fund so I called three scouting professionals from different councils and none were aware of such a practice either. They all contribute personally to their own retirement fund. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying I would think that the pros I talked with would know how their retirement plan worked. As far as the the supply division being a business, you have to go back to the definition of a business compared to a not for profit. No person or persons wealth is tied to the profitability of the supply division. If it loses money no individual or group of stock holders loses money. If it makes a profit no individual or group of stock holders see their personal wealth increase. No individual group of investors profit from the sale of assets. "The supply division business is predatory, protective and competitive with other businesses." I have no idea what your point is. As far as predatory in what way, all products are fair market priced. Individual businesses can carry scout items as well as local service centers. All pay the same cost and all sell for the same price. Protective, the BSA holds copyright and trademark to its name, image and materials. so does the Girl Scouts, the YMCA, the Salvation Army, Pop Warner football. Image anbd property protection is not only for Pepsi, Microsoft and the NFL. Competitive, what business do we compete with? Do you think all those uniform and equipment pieces are made by BSA employees. We deal with a myriad of manufactures in the private (profit) sector for the products the BSA supply division is a warehousing and distribution service not a manufacturing plant. As before, you seem to be chasing conspiracies that only exist in your imagination. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Troop meetings are not meant to be merit badge classes. Scoutmaster training, the Advancement Policies and Procedures manual, The scoutmaster handbook, all make it clear that merit badges are individual studies that the individual scout chooses to learn about. choosing to work on MBs, selecting the topic, contacting and meeting with MB counselor are all a part of the growth development that merit badges help to achieve. Although the monthly theme activities and skill instructions can be used to expose scouts to merit badge opportunities it should not be a production line process. Troop meetings should be preparation for an activity that requires the scouts to grow in knowledge and skills. Once past 1st Class scouts should advance because they make the decision to advance, learn to set goals, make plans and work to that goal. It's funny, often times the troops that make MBs their program are the same ones that complain about boys reaching Eagle before they are mature enough or have the character traits of an eagle. The problem is not the boy, the problem is the leaders removed the personal growth from the MB process and focused on advancement rather than character growth. Follow the program...do not make merit badges your troop program. Bob White

The arrow of light is designed to take about 18 months to complete. Try to squeeze that into 5 months is not beneficial to the scout. You need to continut to provide him a program until he become eligible to join a troop. Unless he will be 11 by the time the other scouts crossover you will need to keep him active until he completes the 5th grade or turns 11, or gets the AOL. Once he meets any of those requirements he could move into a troop. Bob

Your council should have a writen plan on how to handle emergencies. Ask you local district Executive for the current procedure. Bob

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Court cases in the past have tried to claim that THE BSA was a business. They were all dismissed. The federal government through an act of congress recognizes the BSA as a private not for profit organization. Every state government recognizes local scouting councils as 501C not for profit charitable organizations. Organizations must meet stringent guidelines in order to be recognized as a 501C. To try and say that the BSA is a business when the government says it is not, is a lost cause. As Rooster points out, if you understand what makes a business a business then it is easy to see that the BSA is not one. The fact that we have employed a few people to administrate our program does not make us a business. No one makes or loses income based on the profitability of the organization. That, along with following strict governmental guidelines how money can be made and spent and assets used and property owned, makes us a not for profit group. How would the Dale case been different if they had claimed we were a business? It would have ended sooner. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)