Bob White

Stan, The Patrol method is not a goal, it is a method of education and unit operation. The goal is to teach skills. That being the case the Pat4rol Method is extremely successful. If you mean that a perfectly operating troop is an unreachable goal I will go one step further, It's not even a goal. At least it is not a goal of scouting. Nowhere does the Scouting program suggest that things are meant to run perfectly or are even expected to. As you point out Junior Leaders rotate through. They come in as novices and as they become experienced leaders the rotate out to make way for the next wave. If a leader or parent is frustrated that things don't go perfectly, the problem is a flawed expectation not a bad program. That said, there are many problems that are avoidable or correctable through the use of the scouting methods, but it is important to remember our purpose and that we are a testing ground not a finished product. If your scout troop is running perfectly than your adults are probably doing more work than the scouts or you haven't held elections. Bob White

The question asked was what was required to start one. i listed the required elements to hold a valid charter. Bob White

A charter organization Permision of the institution head A Charter Organization Representative Committee Chair 2 Committee Members Scoutmaster 5 eligible youth members

KoreaScouter, I have to disagree with you, which as you know is a very rare occurence between you and me. I do agree that NLE is not a 90-minute program. The problem is in the posted time for sessioon-1, it is off by about 30 minutes. But here is where I need to disagree. in point #1 where you talk about discussions on the their responsibilities and BSA policies, that is not for this part of training. Not that you should ever refuse to answer questions, but they need to be held until after the course. This is a general overview of the history of the BSA, the aims and methods, ages and stages, financing, safety, and the structure of scouting. Other specifics are shared in the Leader Specific training and Youth Protection training. The whole thrust of the training continuum is that needed information is dispersed in small quantities which are focused on the specific job being performed in a graduated format. In point 2, I dont see the transition problems you mention or the handout error. perhaps you could be more specific. The slide show does have some awkward slides. But you need to understand that it was developed to be flexible. The slides are designed to be used as a projected show, to be viewed by an individual during a self taught session, or to be used as presentation notes for a presenter to follow as he or she is viewing the presentation on a laptop. It is also made to be customized by the district (see point 3). As far as it should be better due to the resources of national...you need to understand what those resources are. The presentation was a compilation of work by a volunteer committee, the Boy Scout Training, the Cub scout Training Division, The Venturing Division and others, each trying to get what they see as the most important information included. This is one of the only courses developed in such a fashion. Others were developed specifically by the volunteers and national division directly related to the topic. Compared to the training resources we had prior to this, what we have now is amazing. 3) The NLE PowerPoint is completely adaptable and has all the features available to it of any PowerPoint program. The trick is that you must first save it to your hard drive as a PPT. This will allow you to customize slides to include local information such as council and district maps, substituting local photos, print presentation notes and other nifty PowerPoint features. (to customize a new slide go to your slide viewer and insert a new slide. The new slide will carry the same format as the others including background style, fonts, and colors.)The reason you cannot do that now is that you are running the program off the CD and you cannot alter a program running from the CD until you first save it to the hard drive. Point 4, GTSS was not glossed over if you look at it again. The participants are told it exists and why, they hear some of the key points of Youth Protection, adult responsibilities, and are told to read the pamphlet. During other courses they are given a deeper understanding such as the Sweet 16 of Safety. Finally, if we are to support a national program then it is imperative that the lesson plan not be altered. Trainers however are encouraged to enhance the lesson with their personal training styles and presentation skills in order to maximize communication. Do me a favor and take another look at the course and try the tips I gave you. See if this isn't a better course than you originally evaluated. Thanks, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Each Council is an independent non-profit corporation that contracts annually with the national office of the Boy Scouts of America to administrate the scouting program in a geographic area determined by the BSA's regional service office (there are 4 regions in the country). That contract called a charter is a statement of shared resonsibilities between the two parties. There are specific responsibilities that national has, developing program and program resources, training professionals etc. and responsibilities the council has, servicing youth, adhereing to BSA programs, policies and procedures, owning and operating local camps, training volunteers, operating local service centers etc. just to name a few. Local community organizations then sign charters (contracts) with the council to deliver the BSA program directly to youth, to select and approve leaders, and follow BSA programs, policies and procedures, and supply a year-round meeting place. This is a thumbnail sketch but should give you an idea of what a charter is.

Den chief is technically a troop leadership position that serves a cub scout den. But it takes a partnership between the two programs for it to work. Why not allow the scout to be recognized by both groups? Bob White

I would strongly discourage you from having an adult fill the position, the whole purpose of a boy run troop is to give leadership opportunities to boys, not adults. Why not reduce the restrictions on who can run and let the troop elect whomever they feel would do a good job? Bob White

So ASM1 ednlighten us. How do you intend to sit in Baltimore and recruit thousands of new scouts in Chicago? Which packs should a boy consider joining? What troop do you feel has the best program? What night do they meet? Maybe what they need are more units in general. Who would be a good chartering organization and who is the executive of organization? Who do you think they should recruit to be the new Council President. Have you talked with them yet? Are they willing to do the job? I'm sure your your inimate knowledge of their community, its resources, their problems and the solution, will be invaluable to the people of Chicago. By the way if the problem is membership the solution is better unit meetings not a different president or the status of any piece of council property. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. Your heart is in the right place ASM1, but your body is in a different council. Bob White

jbroganjr, My comments were directed to the topic at hand, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills Training, A course that could not possibly have the worst PowerPoints you have ever seen because it has no PowerPoint presentations at all. The bulk of the syllabus is actually found in the Boy Scout Handbook. The entire thrust of this course is to provide hands-on instruction on the outdoor skill requirements of the Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class Ranks. Eisley makes two interesting comments. 1. You really don't have time to go much beyond the First Class stuff. 2. I found the portion of the syllabus for which I was responsible (map & compass and related skills) utterly lacking in detail as to what was to be covered and how to teach it. You don't have time to to go beyond First Class because you are not suppossed to go beyond First Class. There are little if any directions on how to teach because the trainer is expected to bring that skill with them. That skill is also taught in the Trainer Development/BSA 500 course. As far as the skill information, the syllabus gives the agenda and the advancement requirement that are to be taught. The details on the skills are in the Boy Scout Handbook. Sticking to the agenda is important because you don't want to send them home without covering the information they cam to get and you cannot run long because that is direspectfull to the applicants time committment. Being able to communicate the information in the time scheduled, is what makes a good trainer a good trainer. Videos and Powerpoints have been made a significant part of some training courses in order to insure that the same information is distrubeted in the same way nationwide. One of the biggest problems in the past has been the vast amount of innaccurate and inconsistent information being given by local trainers over the years. By making the basic training in its current format, information is regulated, training can be packaged for large group, small group and mentoring and independent study, and maintain the consistency of the information. Anyone interested in altering the training program should first attend the Administration of Training course offered at Philmont Training center. A larger view of the training programs and a deeper understanding of training administration should be gotten before you begin changing how you develop leaders. One last thing the skill evaluation that jrbrogan suggested creating already exists in the Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills syllabus. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As the Chaplain at Philmont pointed out, "Those who can't sing are the ones who should sing the loudest....if only to get back at God for the voice he gave you!";) Bob

Tell me ASM1, When my council was in debt, how did that effect your troop meeting, your Pack meeting or your camporee? Did you send a whopping donation to bail us out? Did you even call? Yet somehow we managed to solve our own financial problems, maintained our membership, improved our services. We did it. The people of this community. Because it is our council. What will your indignation do to renovate and fill a camp that loses $200,000 annually. Who are you to tell another community how to solve financial woes that you have no knowledge of. They are not shutting down Chicago and moving out. The Council is not collapsing. They have a camp they can't afford and they are looking for ways to deal with it. Councils all over the country deal with this all the time. It has no effect on the quality of the program that you give your scouts. It won't even effect the troop meeting or Pack meetings in Chicago. They will just attend a different summer camp. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

A new national policy goes into efect January 1st of 2003. All tour permits (Local and National)will require that you include the name of at least one adult going on the trip who has completed Youth Protection Training. This is a 90 minute course that should be taken by all adult leaders at least once in a three year period. It is also required training by any male adult leader that is in a dorm style camping facility (such as a cabin) with youth members. Why are you so surprised that it covers local permits? remember you can travel hundreds of miles from hom on a local tour permit, and besides the danger of abuse is not determined by distance. Bob White

The Guide to Safe Scouting specifically states that BALOO TRAINING is required in order to take a pack camping. Webelos Leader Outdoor Training is the official title used in all current scout training resources, the Cub Leader Handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting. New Leader essentials (even when I talk fast and follow the syllabus) takes me two hours and 5 minutes to deliver. It is unlike any single training offered in the past. It does however incorporate snippetts of videos that were used in a variety of training courses in the past. Job specific training varies in length depending on the job.The shortest is about 2.5 hours and the longest is 7.5 hours. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouting takes place at the unit level. District and Council Services help to enhance and provide scouting to a local community. Scout councils are not different in their life than the community themselves and the people who live there. They all have an ebb and flow to their lives. Times when things are good and times of struggle. You can be sure that nation al plays a role in helping local councils to succeed but it is still the local council. The people who live there have the burden of the responsibility to make their community work. No amount of righteous indignation from others will change the people of Chicago or any other community large or small. They local residents need to determine the quality of their life. Read this statement taken fromthe Owassipe.net Staff Association web site. Attention all Scouters and Friends of Owasippe... Official Statement - 9/27/02 By now you may have heard that the Executive Board of the Chicago Area Council will recommend the sale of Hoover and Owasippe at the next meeting of the full Board (currently set for Oct. 16). This is a decision that they have reached after literally months of searching for other alternatives. I have met with the Executive Board. I have looked into their eyes and seen the passion for Owasippe and felt the pain of trying to resolve the serious financial burden that it causes. It is now time for us to act. Let's face some "brutal facts." 1. Owasippe currently loses about $200,000 each year from operations. The cost of bringing a Scout to camp is not covered by the cost of camper fees and additional service fees. This mismatch is almost 2:1. 2. The infrastructure at Owasippe is in serious need of repair, repair that can be assisted by our volunteer labor and sweat equity but needs about $200,000 per year for several years to catch up. Things like a tired electrical system and sagging sanitary units at Reneker plague us and put our operation at risk. 3. There are fewer Scouts in the program today than in years past, and that number is not likely to come back. Additional Scouts are needed, but let's be clear in 1968, we camped about 1,500 boys and leaders each WEEK. This past year, we camped about 1,500 boys from Chicago and another 1,400 boys from out-of-council units for the ENTIRE SUMMER. We cannot make this up with additional Scouts. 4. The Executive Board has been pursuing their fiduciary responsibilities for years, trying to resolve this issue but to no avail. They have had us, the Owasippe Committee, focus on delivering the best possible program we could offer, a challenge delivered upon by many of you. We now have reached a point where we, as the volunteer base of Chicago, need to see if there is sufficient support in the communities of Chicago and Western Michigan to fund an endowment to keep Owasippe as the treasure we have come to know and love. We have a short period to raise sufficient funds for an endowment, and we need to raise these funds without disrupting the vital flow of support through Friends of Scouting and other individual donations. This endowment needs to be between $10 and $15 million. In my conversation with the Executive Board, I proposed that we, the Chicago Area Council, raise funds for an endowment to cover the annual loss from operations as well as the infrastructure improvement costs and that we develop an off-season use plan that utilizes Owasippe far more than the current six-week season. This off-season use will generate additional revenue and provide an outdoor education experience for the youth of Western Michigan. The Executive Board has given us until June 1 to raise the commitments for the endowment. Our progress will be reviewed periodically, but if we cannot raise substantive support if together with the Executive Board we cannot see that we are making progress by the end of January then we will have to face the brutal fact that we are not able to raise the endowment and the support is not broad enough within our communities of interest. We have pulled together a group of interested volunteers for a special committee to drive this project. We believe we will be successful. We believe we have a serious task in front of us, but we can do nothing BUT succeed. With your help, we can give back to the camp in a way most only dream of. What can you do? You can write letters to the individuals below. Please, do not send e-mail. Take the time and effort to let them know you agree with their decision to take this risk with us and that you will support the drive to meet the commitments made by the Owasippe Committee. If you are a registered Scouter in Chicago, contact your District Chairman with the same message. Together, we can get this job done. Joe Sener, Chair, Owasippe Committee 815.444.6270 senerjp@aol.com There does not seem to be any anger between the staff alumni and the council leadership. It is a matter of finances and everyone agrees there needs to be better fundraising efforts made. Last thoughts on this. * Camping is a tool of scouting it is not the goal of scouting. * Age of the camp does not equate quality or affordability. * Just because you are indignant does not mean your right. The Chicago area knows what their strengths and weaknesses are and they are dealing with them. I wish them well. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Dear ASM1, There are hundreds of councils serving communities across the USA and our military bases around the world. I do not claim to know the financial stauts of any other than my own. At any given time there are dozens of councils going through financial turmoil. It would be impossible to battle on behalf of all of them. If you think The Chicago Area Council, or any council for that matter gives two hoots about your opinion from outside the council, you have delusions of grandeur. Each council is made of volunteers from the communities they serve. If the council president is corrupt as you say then it is the local community's choice to live with it or fix it. Just for historical accuracy it has been many, many, years since Chicago Area Council was a powerhouse of program or financial stability in the scouting world. It's not as if this problem just sprang from nowhere. I'm confident the families and leaders of the Chicago Area Council will find a way through this dilema and come out stronger and better for the experience. I have served in a council that was 3.5 million dollars in debt and completely recovered in two years and improved unit service in the process. Get a ladder and step down from that high horse of self righteousness. Become involved on your District and Council committees to make sure that the same problem does not befall your council and you will be doing far more good with all that energy. By the way I make no claim to any level of importance to this board. I offer as accurate referrals to resources of scouting as I can along with my experience as a Pack and Troop leader in what have been extrememly successful units. My training experience is somewhat unique and seems to have been a benefit to some on this board. I never expected to, or attempted to, please everyone. If you are unhappy with my opinion to let a community operate it's own scout council, tough! I believe you have the right to determine your mission in scouting, I expect the same courtesy from you. Respectfully, Bob White

Actually sctmom there are some elements of Introduction to Outdoor Leadership that are beneficial to Webelos leaders. Because of that the new Webelos Leader Outdoor Training will run in tandem with Introduction to Outdoor Leadership. They will have overlapping agendas to where some of the progam time will be separate and some will be shared. As far as where to turn the first place would be the Council Training Chaiperson, then to their manager the Council President. If you do not recieve the training you request at that point drop a casual note to the scout Executive that you are contacting the National office to ask why scout leader training is not provided in your community in accordance with the council's national charter with the BSA. Then sit back and watch the sparks of enthsiasm suddenly appear. It is unfortunate that your Districts Training Chair is not more responsive. I would like to think your case is an exception and not the rule. Our district offers over 48 opportunities a year to attend basic training courses and Youth Protection. Bob White

Hi Paul, I should not have included Troop Guide in that statement. The Scoutmasters Handbook and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook give the responsibility of selecting Troop leadership positions to the elected Senior Patrol Leader using the advice and counseling of the Scoutmaster. The one exception is JASM (Junior Assistant Scoutmaster) which both resources say require the consent of the Scoutmaster. Two good resources for understanding the job of the Troop Advancement Chair are "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" manual, and "The Troop Committee Guide". Best of Luck, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I can appreciate that 2 den meetings is more convenient than weekly however it is not consistent with the needs charactreristics of a boy this age. Two weeks is an eternity for a 7 to 10 year old. information retention is diffult interest is hard to maintain. If a den leader is doing poor weekly meetings having them meet every other week is not going to improve the content or leadership. I agrre that planning and communications are key. But be careful about attitudes of throwing away the book and using only the parts you like. You may have a good program but without the methods of scouting it is not a scout program. You seem to be doing your program but in a scout uniform. Bob White

Program Helps brochure available through your local scout office follows the 12 monthly themes set by national and followed by Boys Life magazine. In it they will give you 4 den meeting agendas for each month, and tell you which requirements will be completed in each rank for tigers wolves and bear dens. It is an invaluable program tool. Paired with the Cub How To Book you will have about everything you need for successful Den meetings. Bob White

* A new Webelos wearing either the blue or tan shirt would wear the Bobcat badge on the appropriate diamond location on the left shirt pocket until he earned his Webelos Badge. * Districts and do not have the authority to change training courses. * The Youth Protection program for adults and leaders was updated in 1999. * BALOO will still be required to atke a pack camping * Webelos leader Outdaoor Training has been rewritten and is expevted for relaease shortly. * Intoduction to Outdoor Leader Training teaches SMs the advancement outdoor skills leading from Tenderfoot to First Class and has no appropriate information for Cub Leaders and has no info about taking Cubs camping. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

twocubdad, You are correct in your sighting f the G2SS that parents can observe ant activity. However a good example of the G2ss and the CO right to set their own rules are reflected in the troops chartered by religious organizations such the LDS church. They would rather have male leaders on cmapouts (at least the few units I have known). Any parent can observe but they prefered that only the dads camped overnight. this practice was within there right as a CO to have a program that respected there beliefs and comfort and was in keeping with the G2SS. I would agree that if you said neither the mother or father could stay overnight that such a practice violates the BSA policies, but to stay only one parent can stay the night does not. Bob White

Keep in mind the original post. It mentions nothing about quitting. it talks about conflicting schedules. Boys should be able to experience differnet types of activities. When you do more than one thing in your life there will be conflicts. Boys should not always have to choose scouts first. But that doesn't release the leader of providing a program that is so good that the boy would always want to choose scouts first. Bob White

There are no uniform police. The BSA relies on the honor and integrity of its volunteers to follow the policies of uniforming (unless you use the uniform for commercial endorsement or in a dishonorable fashion, at which time rather than send uniform police they send lawyers). Bob White

The 'dress uniform' according to the Insignia Guide 2002-2004 page 47, is a blazer with scout tie or for females the scarf, worn with white shirt or blouse. It is normally only worn by professionals. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I drove my son to school today. As he got out of the car a custodian was raising the American Flag. There was No ceremony. I don't think you casn have an informal flag ceremony (informal and ceremony seem to contradict each other),but I'm pretty sure I witnessed an informal flag raising. My son stopped and placed his hand over his heart. Had he been in either scout uniform I'm sure he would have saluted. I see no problem with that. Bob White