Bob White

OK so the original proposal included the whole troop. the Troop Committee Guide says that the troop gives the plan to the committee for their suggestions. Couldn't you suggest that the event be limited to the older more experienced scouts as a safety measure? Couldn't the boys be given a chance to see the logic and allowed to alter THEIR plan? Its about coaching and guiding not about being "in charge". Sure this method takes longer. But the point is that it be a learning and growth experience for the scouts. If you are looking for speed and efficiency you will need to remove the boys input and leadership because real scouting doesn't run smoothly. After all its run by kids who are just learning about planning and leadership. But that is what we are here to do isn't it? The committee is responsible for seeing that activities follow the safety guidelines and policies. That can be done without canceling the boys plans. You can help them to learn how to plan safety into the event. You can't do that if their event gets snatched away from them. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That program rule has been in effect since 2001. Webelos may attend but there must be a separate program for them to participate in. The reason is two-fold. First Webelos are not trained to compete at a Boy Scout skill level so there participation within a patrol or against a patrol is hardly fair or fun in the majority of cases. Secondly, if the event's skill levels are lowered to accommodate the Webelos then it lowers the enjoyment of the event for the Boy Scout. So the solution is to run the event with two skill levels. One for the Webelos, and one for the Boy Scouts. The Webelos are also asked required) to camp separately. Bob White

My boss drives a new Jaguar and every now and then they take it in to fix something. You would think that for that kind of money it would be error free. Oh well, she probably bought it at WalMart. Now I understand why Yaworski is so negative, the world didn't turn out as perfect as he wanted. Yaworski, if you should ever meet the manufacturer ask why he created Sam Walton.

Let's look at your situation in a more scouting way. The job of the committee is to say "how can we help", so let's see how we can help. It's September and the committee, after reviewing the calendar, sees possible safety issues involved in the Yellowstone trip. They also see the value of the experience and understand why the scouts are drawn to it. So at the committee meeting they ask the SM for more info. The Scoutmaster says this is a High adventure trip and will be for the 14 year old and higher scouts who are First Class and older. The PLC, he tells you, realize the adventuresome nature of the trip and have planned their skill training to prepare them for the trip. They also know of someone in the community who has done a trip like this who is willing to do training with the scouts in the area of trip planning and packing as well as winter saftey. The SM has a concern however about the volitale nature of that region in the winter, so he spoke to a park ranger at Yellowstone by phone. The range suggested a late February trip saying that the weather was more stable and there would still be plenty of snow. A side nenefit would be the additional preparation time the boys would have prior to the trip. Since the park gets considerable usage they could suggest a variety of treks from mild to difficult and that not all trails are in the back country. Also all hikers must file an itinerary with the park, so incase bad weather should start to move in the rangers can evacuate the park if needed. The SM asked if the committee had any other concerns than the ones they are already preparing for. The committee recommends that a weekend trip be scheduled as soon as the weather allowed to let the scouts do a shakedown and be sure they are prepared. Everyone agreed that would be a godd idea. The question of cost came up and the SM said the SPL and one of his Assistants offered to work on a budget, the Finance chair and Outdoor chair offer to help the boys prepare it. The SM said he would have them call and set a meeting. The chairman congratulated the SM on an exciting plan that should create an abundance of learning and advancement opportunities for the boys. The Advancement chair recommended that as part of the trip preparation all the scouts could work on requirements from the X-country skiing merit badge. The equipment chair suggests that since the troop was looking at new tentage they investigate 4-season tents to accomodate the trip. Another member suggests that if they are too expensive the troop could rent the proper tentage for the trip. The chairman asked that the rental cost be included in the trip cost as an option. So everyone plays a part, the boys plan, the troop committee supports, work gets done, and there was no voting needed. Is it utopian? Only if all you do is talk about it. If you DO IT, it becomes a program. Hope this helps, Bob

I bought a Lands End shirt which had a button hole drilled in the wrong place. I bought a Bill Blass blazer that had the lining sewn incorrectly. I had a pair of Dockers where one pocket wasn't sewn pocket. I don't expect the store or the warehouse to inspect every piece. I just expect them to exchange them when a problem is found and they all did. The mistakes were with the manufacturer. When you understand that that these companies turn out millions of pieces each every year it is inconceivable that they will be 100% defect free. The many companies that produce scout apparel are no different. You say you "shouldn't have to return them", why is that? Do you really think that every item from every vendor can be manufactured defect free? Do you think that the BSA can inspect every individual item that arrives at a warehouse. I am willing to bet youre looking for a way to qualify your complaint about the quality of the uniform by sighting a smattering of manufacturing errors. Any store that carries a variety of items by a variety of vendors gets returns each and every day the BSA is no different.

Bob has a scout room at home that has a lot of the current reference materials beacuse Bob gets about 16 e-mails and 10 phone calls a day from unit leaders looking for help. Bob gives them the reference names so that they will learn how to discover answers for themselves. I don't want them to scout "my way" I want them to scout "the BSA way". It's a version of the old "give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish". Bob is now done talking in the third person. Bob hopes this explains the books and page numbers. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Although I agree with you John wishing that the others change is a waste of energy. As scout leaders we can only control how we carry out the promise of the scouting program. If we do our role correctly perhaps the scouts we develop will grow to be the cooperative coaches in the future. But many leaders are there own worst enemies. By not following the elements of the Patrol method nad the leadership methods of the BSA they basically push boys to team sports. The social aspect of belonging to a group is part of the make-up of a young teen. If scoutiing does not provide the group belonging and esteem that boys require they will be drawn to team sports, group social events and gangs. But toomany scout leaders find it easier to blame sports and extra-curricular events than to use the features scouting provides to compete on the same level. Well it's late and I've got enough Fast Start Tapes dubbed for tomorrow so I'm heading to bed. Bob White

Hi kittle, Most scout leader teraining can be done as a self study course when needed. It would be impractical to do this for everyone because of the amount of resouces it would rezire and because time wise it can be very ineffecient. However it is available for most courses. Assuming you are a cub leader you can watch the Fast Start Video (13 minutes or less depending on your position of responsibility, Then you can watch the New Essentials video and follow along with the study guide (about 2 hours). Next a pack trainer can meet with you at your home and do the Job Specific training (under 3 hours)., So don't think it is not possible, call your District trraining chair and ask for help. Have Fun, Bob White

We do if we have 3 committee members present to do it. Otherwise we do it at the next troop meeting and the boy gets recognized the evening of the BOR. He gets his badge the next meeting and he gets the pocket certificate card at the Court of Honor. See the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual pages 24 and 33.

You know very well yaworski that the scoutmaster is responsible for being the adult advisor for the PLC to make sure the scouts stay on task and within the scouting program. If your situation EVER took place the first job of the committee would be to secure a new Scoutmaster. Please stay within the realm of realism as we discuss these topics. Your red herrings add nothing to the topic. You might also read the Troop Committee Guidebook pg. 12. To see that the PLC sets the program plan and the committee supports it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

But they do offer scholarships. BW

Question Dan, how does one know if he agrees with the scouting program or understands the scouting program unless he goes to scout leader training? Wouldn't you agree that scouting is a specfic method of teaching and learning in order to reach specific goals? And, that there is more to scouting than just having fun and wearing a scout uniform? Where will leaders learn what differentiates scouting from other youth activities if not by receiving training? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

In case you haven't received it yet there is a NEW Cub Scout fast Start Video out for Cub parents and new leaders. If you haven't seen one yet call your Council office. I'm sitting in my office right now dubbing copies to give to the Cub Roundtable Commissioner to distribute to the Packs in our District at tommorow's roundtable. Bob White

Our council screens Merit Badge Counselors but leaves unit volunteers to the Chartering organizations.

Close DrBeado, You are right on the money on #1. #2 however is an example of problem in some units. The Role of the committee is not to decide if they will "let" a troop do something. The role of the committtee is to help the troop do the things that the PLC has decided to do. It's not a "can they go" it's "how can we help". #3 If a consensus cannot be reached then yes a troop could vote. In fact they can make the decision however they want. The question that needs to be asked is, if a group of adults cannot cooperate to reach a concensus is majority rule the best answer? What if the majority does not want to do the right thing. What if they vote to put cubs and parents on a river with current in canoes, or sell a brand product in uniform, or work at a funraiser for a political candidate that the majority of committee members endorse. The majority isn't always right. It is the role of the committee chair to make sure they do the right thing irregardless of the majority opinion. That being the case voting unnecesarry to the committee function. Others will argue that decisions cannot be made without them. In most business meetings decisions are made by discussion and the meeting chair makes determination s on actions. Voting is usually used oonly when an official record is required. The BSA requires no such records. Are Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters members of the committee? NO. The scoutmaster, as the adult program representative, sits in to represent the needs and decisions of the troop. The Committee as the administration support are there to help select and support the program team. I hope this clarifies things. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

OGE hit it right on the head. I am in no way suggesting the boy did a bad thing. My point is that the methods and program elements of scouting, when used, can bring about the same dedication to attendance that the scout felt to the soccer team. That there is a reason that every boy, regardless of the size of the patrol or troop, needs to have a genuine position of responsibility and the structure of the patrol needs to be maintained and not merged if the scouts are to feel that there attendance makes a difference. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As far as why people don't get trained there are probably a thousand different reasons. Lack of commitment, lack of knowledge that training exists, other conflicts, belief that it is not needed, just to name a few but I'm sure many, many, more exist. As far as the trainers, just like unit volunteers there are good ones and bad ones. Errors happen for a variety of reasons, habit, area of training vs. area of service experience, belief that you have a method that is better than the BSA method, human error. I made an error writing to you in another thread on Cub Pack committees because in the heat of discussion I violated my own guidelines. As a District Training Chair I tell my trainers to, whenever possible, answer questions by going directly to the scouting resource. Mainly because my trainers teach every course available and there are a lot of elements to keep track of. I didn't follow my own rule. I usually teach Boy Scout courses, Train the Trainer, New Leader Essentials, Commissioner training, and rarely do Cub Training. I have been a Cub leader and Cub trainer in the past but not often since the new manual and curriculum was released. When we discussed pack Committee I should have refreshed myself first. I always try to get the training materials to trainers a couple weeks in advance if it is an area they do not normally work in so that they can review. So if a trainer has not familiarized themselves with the syllabus changes mistakes can be made. Our District requires our trainers to continually improve their skills and knowledge to remain on the team. Why people after they learn the scouting methods or rules continue to do it their own way? In almost ever case I have seen it is a matter of control. There are a number of people in scouting because they like the words Master and Leader. The thought that they are not supposed to be in charge of everything upsets them. The biggest problem always seems to be with troop volunteers. The more they learn about scouts acting independently the more they tighten their grasp on the reins. Just my observations, Bob White

sctmom, I didn't snipe at anyone who chooses to vote I merely said it was not needed. I got very frustrated with the posters who did not say they chose to vote, or ask how does one operate without voting, but at those who jumped my case for daring to say that voting wasn't required, needed, or taught in BSA training resources. I also took exceptions to a few who grossly misrepresented what I said. You for instance wrote that I said "voting was not permitted". Nowhere in my writings does that appear. Another poster repeatedly wrote that I said committee members could not communicate with each other, and at no time did I say or even imply that, and yet it was constantly reported that I did. Another slapped at me for always spouting rules, but this isn't a rule and I never said it was. A couple of posters even agreed with me yet none attacked them for saying the same thing I said. Instead I was personally lampooned as a know it all. In fact only one poster had the courtesy to ask for an example of how to operate without voting. Few took the time to read the committee book to say "you know what, it doesn't say we need to vote", or to ask what the advantages of not voting would be. They jumped me because I said their was another way to do things. There are a lot of people who read this board and don't write in for whatever reason. I know because for a year I was one of them. I sat back and read some of absolute tripe being spouted by some posters as scouting gospel that wasn't even close to the true nature of scouting. Yet no one attacked them. I give you the actual scouting resources and I catch flack. I admit that my attitude the last couple of weeks has taken a tailspin, but the frustration caused by the amount of misinformation that some of the posters spread on this sight is incredible and I let it vent in some posts. Mostly with two posters who throw personal insults at me and others (and I'm not convinced they aren't the same person) and I choose to fight back, and with two others who claim vast experience but wouldn't know a real scouting program if it walked up and kissed them on the nose. I apologized for being incorrect on the cub program merging the two meetings into one. I stand by my statement that voting in committee meetings is not needed, not required, and not taught in the scouting resources, and has many disadvantages. I make no apologies for supporting the policies and methods of the program or for continuing to participate in discussions using the scouting methods as my premise. I make no apologies for defending myself against personal attacks and I would appreciate it if posters would stick to the topic at hand and the concepts I write about, and leave the personal attacks out. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is also in the new SPL handbook.

A very good point was raised in another string by a parent whose son picked soccer over scouts because with soccer he felt he was an indispensable member of a team. He believed his presence on the team made the difference between winning and losing. I don't blame him for picking the soccer team. I think given the feelings of self-worth that being a member of the "team" gave him it was a logical decision. What I see is an opportunity lost by the troop. How many Positions of responsibilities (POR) does his troop have? My guess is that the troop offices might be filled and the patrols have Patrol Leaders and Assistants but the members of the patrol have no specific responsibilities. It is no wonder that this scout doesn't feel his presence is vital to the operation of the patrol. He is just one of many worker bees. If enough of the patrol members don't show up they know that the Scoutmaster will just merge patrols until there are enough people to do whatever needs doing. So this scout does not see his personal attendance as vital to the patrol "wining or losing" as he does on the soccer team. What can a unit do to combat this? The patrol method allows for every boy to have a POR. Just like every player on a sports team having a specific role to play in the success of the team. With every scout in the troop having a specific duties and a POR everyone can feel the same importance to the troop and patrol that this scout feels to his soccer team. Does every scout in your troop have a position? This scout knows that if he doesnt go to a game his team will be short handed. If the soccer coaches rearranged teams at every game then this boy would not have the same feeling that his attendance mattered. Patrols are like the soccer team. If leaders rearrange the patrols when scouts are absent then the scouts will not develop a feeling or understanding that their personal attendance is important. How many of you merge patrols at meetings or outings? Do you see how you are defeating the purpose of having Patrols? The same program elements that made the scout choose soccer could have been used in the troop and patrol to make him pick scouting. But it wasnt. Food for thought, Bob White

It's not that scouting doesn't, it is that most charter organizations don't. Unit volunteers are selected and approved by the local charter organization. Screening is their responsibility not the BSA's. It is the CO's reponsibility to obtain and check references. Some do a very good job of this, many don't. One problem is the way that many units recurit. When you say to the crowd of parents "We need somebody to..." what you are saying is you will take anybody who says yes. Units and Co's need to choose leaders not just sign anyone. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

My apologies to Zorn or Mreg or whoever you are. You're just so abusive with your snide comments to OGE about the rest of us as if we are not here and can't see what you write. So what if we misspell. Lazy smazy, they are just mistakes for the most part caused by hasty typing. Maybe you are from Hungary. Maybe Zorn Packte is your real name. I don't care. But either talk about scouting or join an insult board. If you're hanging around just to snipe at us lazy Americans you must be a lonely, lonely person. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

So you got the name Anger Packed (Zorn Packte) from a Hungarian ancestor. How fascinating. It is especially interesting that you and the others in the Hungarian Packte clan have a German name. I may misspell from time to time but that does not make me ignorant or untruthful. I did OK in my German language classes in High School and I recognize German when I see it. Zorn Packte is pure German for Anger Packed. I did use a translator for the Hungarian version you connect yourself with, which by the way is mreg tmtt. So Mreg, it appears you walked into your own fib. Bob White (not my real name but then I never said it was.)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

jbroganjr, I acknowledged I was going by a method that has been changed in the current program and I have no problem supporting that change. But that does not invalidate what I have written concerning the voting. I am not saying you can't vote. do it if you want. My point was you don't need to, you are not required to and there are better methods to operate by. There is nothing in that which violates scout spirit. Go Back and read the string that started it all and you will see that all I did was say that voting wasn't required and gave examples of why. I was the one on the defense not the offense. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)