Bob White

That is only because they have come to see the unit as one that meets there rather than "their" unit. Do not think that just because the units in your community have degraded to that state, that all the units in the BSA have degraded to that state. The fact that the units in your area do not have healthy relationships with the CO does not change the fact that the units belong to the CO. Not does it alter the fact that the BSA program is not designed for the committee to determine the CC or the CR, nor does anything in the BSa program support units to operating that way. The solution is to fix the relationship not to alter the program structure. Like it or not it is not the committee's job or the parents' job to tell the CO or their representatives what to do with their Scouting program.

What do you know of their organization and how are you going to describe the benefits of the Venturing Program to them? If you are approaching this as a sales presentation then you should should probably be asking the questions at first to discover their needs and then showing how the features of scouting can help fulfill them. If you can do that their questions will center around "how can we get started".

Gcan, No I have never hidden shiny things in the woods...well that's not true either, we did a Klondike Derby were we had gold nuggets that the scouts collected as they competed in various skills along a trail. Then they took them to the assayer's office to determine their value for their score. We biked to a local lake for a fishing contest. We hiked to an airplane museum, we did a photography hike as part of a monthly theme, We did a conservation hike where we collected litter along a nature trail at a state park, we had a nature hike with stations along a route where the scouts would stope for a different nature exhibits and games, we did a one mile version with the cubs tgat ended at a zoo. Just as a few examples. We nenver took cubs out to hiuke just to hike. Hiking is just a mode of transportation. But kids ride bikes all the time, so to ride a bike just to ride a bike does not require the efforts of a pack. Gcan, how is it you are so sure that Pack15nissan lives in a suburban area,? lots of scouts across the countru live in areas where riding bikes around is not as uncommon an activity as you seem to think it is. I did not say that taking the cubs would be a bad thing, I suggested that he could enhance the activity and probable get more cubs interested if there was more to the event than just riding a bike. Ask your son is he wants to go for a car ride and the first thing he will probably ask is "to where" or "Why". To kids the transportation is not an activity it is a way to get to an activity. So the suggestion to Pack15nissan was don't just go on a hike, have a purpose, a feature activity to do while on the hike or at the end of the hike.

Our Council Newsletter just had an article on this. They are using the full program with soccer and scout skills combined. It currently has a few hundred participants and seems to be doing fine.

Fscouter is correct but I will refine his answer slightly. Liability coverage is extended to registered adults only, providing they do not do something that could jeopardize it such as breaking a law or purposely ignoring a BSA safety policy. Accident insurance, as FScouter explained is extended to guests who are prospective members. In some councils the accident insurance is provided through the council at no cost to the unit and in some cases the unit must purchase the coverage. So as long as you units has one of these two coverages your guests are always covered. Also as FScouter points out failing to file a Tour Permit will not in itself void your liability protection, but not doing the things that are on the permit potentially could.

Who will you be talking to and what will you be telling them about? That might give us an idea of what kind of questions they will be asking.

My only concern is to discuss the topic. I think what GW expresses as far as his view that "as an adult I like the event so would a youth noty like it as well' is a common atittude among leaders before attending training. Which is why I was explaining the need to understand that youth are wired differently and that to get them interested in activities such as a hike or trek, you need to address those differences. That GW chooses to use this discussion as a platform for personal insults is neither my fault or my responsibility. I hope that Pack15nissan finds a way to do ths bike hike that is fun and well attended by the Cubs.

"Those of us grounded in reality know that if an entire committee tells the CO it's time for a new CC, or the unit will be decimated by people leaving, the CO is likely to make the change, regardless of what the books say about the BSA program. " What your story doesn't tell is whether or not the rst of the committee is right or not. What you saying is that the IH needs to bow to per pressure without establishing if the peers are right or wrong. Since the unit does not belong to the commmittee but to the Charter organization which is represented by the IH, CR, and CC, what path the Co follows is their choice. Their responsibility ois not to do what the committee wants but to follow the Scouting program, its ppoliciies, procedures and methods. The "real world" is what you make it. You can choose to follow the BSa programs or choose not to. But expect to havemore problems and bigger pp[roblems when you choose to not follow the program. And don't expect those who do follow the program to have a lot of pity for those probelms when you made the choice to not follow the program. There is no Wizard of Scouting, but if you want to have a quality scouting program it just takes a little courage to do what's right, the heart to want to do the right thing, and the brains to learn how.

"The big problem is the National Sea Scout Committee keeps changing everything for what reason I'm not sure." They keep changing EVERYTHING? That would have to be a lot of stuff to change. I would bet that alot of people woulkd find it hard to beieve that everything has changed. Could you give us an example Kahuna, because I have only done this for a few years and I am unaware of anything changing in that perios of time , let alone EVERYTHING changing. How about identifying just 12 things that have changed in the last 4 years. Thanks BW

Again you lack the ability to discuss the topic so you resort to personal and senseless attacks.

I understand the confusion with the photos. But the same BSA source has an text explanation for the position of the patch. The question was wheter or not there is room for the trained patch below. There is. And according to the current directions that is still the correct location for te trained patch. The same goes for the arrowhead award, the comment was that there is no room below the pocket...but there is.

"BeeDub, maybe the problem is that you underestimate kids' capacity to have fun." Not at all, I think perhaps you believe that what you think is fun a kid will also see as fun. And I believe you are in error to believe that. I don't think you will convince many Cub aged boys that to take a bike ride to see pretty trees wil be fun. You need it to lead to an adventure if you want to get kids excited about going. To you a bike ride is an adventure. To a Cub age youth it's transportation to go do something else. A wise leader will understand the needs and characteristics of the youth they serve. In the case of a hike, what is the adventure that waits for them when tey get there?

jmwaslton You assume incorrectly. Besides there is no need to assume, the correct answer is easily available. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=NEW&c3=&c4=&lv=2&item=18064

The vested interest that a committee chair or charter organization representative brings to a scout unit is not through having a son in the unit but by wanting to serve the charter organzation and their committment to youth through the use of a quality scouting program. Parents need to understand that the program does not belong to them but is an activity made possible through a joint partnership between the charter organization and the BSA. Just as the the choir director works for the church and not for the parents of the choir members. I am not sure that the word Consensus or even the suggestion of consensus is a part of the program for BSA unit operations as far as the committee is concerned. The training and the resources say that the committee chair gives assignements to the appropritae committee members and they carry them out and reports their progress at the monthly committee meeting. It is not th ecommittees role to determine the direction of the unit's program. The Charter organziation Rep, the committee chair, and the unit leader determine that. Then the committee chair leads the actions of the committee and the Unit Leader leads the actions of the program leaders. This is not scouting by consensus. This is supposed to be trained leaders leading a real scouting program. Why would you select someone to be the treasurer based on their bookeeping skills and then have them tell you what they think the advancement chair should do...or visa versa. That is not how the program is designed or taught, or supported. This is not the PTO, Scouting has its own structure that is unique to most all other organizations, and that is why it works so well...WHEN ITS FOLLOWED. Lynn I urge you to consider, if you want a successful scouting program, to learn how the program is designed to work and not by what others offer as their personal variation or opinion. Don't do what I tell you, or what anyone else tells you. Do what the Scouting Program tells you. It's their program, they have developed a plan that works from 100 years of experience. No one individuasl on this or any other forum knows the program as well as the BSA does Thats why they have all these resources to help you. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The trained strip which is now green on khaki fits below the POR patch on both the long and short sleeve uniform shirt as always. The Commissioners Arrowhed will fit in it correct place as well. Do not try to determine uniform by looking at an ad flyer.

"In BW's case where 45 boys walked away from an established, they could have started a second troop but chose not to. Had council support been requested, I'm sure they would have assisted the process with the boys." You miss the poin, this is not about the ability to start another unit. This is about your comments jblake that the skills of the scoutmaster has no effect on the program. They obviously can have a huge effect. Your comments are without evidence and unsupportable.

Old Handbook, outdated information, the rules have changed.

I never said I didn't, did I? I said that it would be wrong to expect what motivates you to be the same thing that will motivate a cub scout. I of course meant a cub scout today not back when you were a cub scout. Welcome to the present.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"What about just the joy of riding? Hike for a purpose? I just go hiking to get outside and breathe the clean air. I ride for the same reason." And how old are you GW? You will be very disappointed if you think what motivates someone your age will motivate a Cub Scout.

Lynn here is why the The BSA does not sggest, support, or even suggest that the re be voting to determine committee assignmements or committee leadership. The unit belongs to the Charter organization. The Charter organization contracts with the BSA to form a partnership to use the BSA program to enhance and carry out the goals of the charter organization in its service to youth and the community. For that reason it is important for the success of that partnership that the unit be responsible to the Charter organization. That responsibility is insured by the Institutional Head selecting and approving the Charter Organizational Representative and the Committee Chairman. They are the representatives of the Charter organization and are the administrators of Scouting for the Charter organization. The Charter rep should be a member of the board of the Charter organization. It is when units lose this important connection that the relationship between the unit and the Charter organization begins to decay. Which ultimately will harm the health of the unit. As for the committee members, what they do is not a popularity contest. They should be selected based on their skills and resources for the specific job. That is the responsibility of the Committee Chair to make that decision, since it is his or her team to lead. Just as the president selects his own Cabinet , the Committee Chair selects their own committee. Do some charter organizations do it differently, yes, but that does not mean they do it better or correctly. There are specific benefits to the health of the unit to keeping these posts controlled by the charter organization. Charter organizations will take better care of "their" units then they will of units that just meet "there". Are there other ways as Beavah suggests, perhaps, but what he doesn't mention is that none of the other ways are found anywhere in the official program of the BSA, and that is by design not by coincidence.

Here is how it designed to be done acccording to the scouting program and supported in the training and resources of the BSA program. The Committee Chair is selected by the Institutional Head and/or the Charter Organization Representative. The Committee Chair then selects the committee members with the membership also approved by the Charter organization Representatibve or the Institutional head. The Committee Chair assigns the committee positions based on the skills and resources of the individual. The committee members carry out the work assigned to them by the committee chair and report their progress at the Monthly Committee Meetings. there are no elections. the Committee chair serves at the behest of the charter organization representative and the Institutional Head. The Committee members serve at the behest of the Committee Chair and the Charter organizational head. You can learn more about Troop Committee Operations in the Troop Committee Guide or from the Troop Committee Challenge Training now on-lion on the BSA on-line learning Center.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is the problem RangerT... I am notthe topic of the thread, and when you post your personal opinion of me rather than share your knowledge of the topic you do nothing to further the discussion. Just as when BadenP tried to make me the topic rather than present his view and any substanative evidence to support it. You are welcome to try and start a thread about me, but it has been tried before. The problem is that while you will get some, perhaps several people to share in the insults, you will not find evidence of what you claim in my posts. I have not called you or others any names, I present refererences and resources to support the information on Scouting that I share. The problem is that when the printed information from the BSA is contrary to what people say they do they take it personally. And since they cannot refute the information they take their frustration out on the messenger. If you disagree with my posts then find BSA evidence to their contrary. If people take offense to the BSA materials saying one thing while they do another, then that is not my fault or responsibility. My agreement with the BSA as a volunteer was to follow and support the BSA's program, not the the personal choices of others that are contrary to the programs's. So let's worry less about me and more about the topic of the thread and anything related to it that you can offer and support. If what I do in scouting is contrary to your understanding of the program please let's talk about it. My posts are always about the topic, I hope yours will be as well.

Once the Gore-tex patend expire a couple years ago a lot of new breathable fabrics have hit the marke. Probably the best as far as waterproof but breathable is Epic by Nextec. Even the military is using it in their rain gear now. backcountry.com has Epic rainjackets for under $70

Based then on your knowledge of Scouting and your familiarity with the training and resources of the BSA, from having at one time been a professional for almost 6 years BadenP, can you offer any evidence that we can review in any BSA resource or syllabus that is contrary to either the BSA's support of servant leadership or of its support and teachings of a patrol's ability to do activities independent of adult leadership? If so would you please share that source as we have alredy showed that the BSA supports these through numerous and specific current training and print resources. I was unaware that any such information existed in the BSA program and would appreciate knowing where they are. Thanks you for your assistance in this matter. I look forward to your informed response. BW

The BSA program does not disagree that 1 SPL can lead 8, its just that the 8 are supposed to be the Patrol Leaders, not 8 ASPLS. If the SPL is leading the 8 ASPLS then who is leading the PLC. It couldn't be the SPL by your method because then he would be leading 16 and not 8. So who leads the PLC?(This message has been edited by Bob White)