Bob White

We are heading to North Carolina to hike a portion of the Appalachian Trail and possible spend a day white water rafting. Bob White

I have no wish for him to return but I have no reason to believe anything he says.

As has happened in the past Ozemu, posters are confusing Rules (BSA policies)with scouting Methods (recommended program elements outlined in the various Boy and adult handbooks). BSA policies cover three specific areas (Safety, Advancement, and Uniforming). Just like the laws of our community most of our policies come from volunteer committees representing units across the country and from lawyers. They protect our participants and leaders from injuries and lawsuits. They protect our program's image and TradeMarks, and they control key elements that make the BSA program unique. Everything else, like patrol method, youth leadership, and the other 6 methods of Boy Scouting come from tradition, best practices, and from continually learning more about how young people grow and learn. Bob White

No alter ego posting on my part. I simply wrote to Terry and asked if he could check on my suspicion that Y and Z was the same impolite, insulting poster. Terry checked IPs and confirmed it. I checked posting times to make sure it was not a stolen IP, and it wasnt. So dont blame me for Y/Zs lack of character. I doubt he will really go away (his ego wont let him). Its doubtful the volunteers in his own community want to spend any time around him as he spouts his misinformation on scouting, so the remoteness of the internet is his only outlet. More likely he will return in another name. Fortunately his rudeness and distain for scouting will give him away again and we will not respond to his goading. Lets not allow him to disturb this board no matter what deceit he practices next time. Bob White

Sorry Scoutparent, but the two posters are one in the same. Their nearly identical rudeness and lack of knowledge about the scouting program tipped his hand. It is not a case of stolen IPs. They have posts with identical IP addresses that are less than 5 minutes apart. Since ARP caches addresses every 5 minutes two postings within that time period would not be possible from a stolen IP. Some posts are within 3 minutes of each other. Considering the time it takes to type such long strings of venomous trash if it were someone else posting then Y would have to be in the same room at least and knowledgeable of the kind of nonsense that each was spewing. If it was someone else on his computer and he allowed such behavior to continue he would be just as guilty. This creep has used you and the scouting program to attack individuals, religious beliefs, the scouting program and hundreds of dedicated community volunteers. He has earned our contempt and our pity. I do not envy him having to face the mirror each day. But that does not give him the right to participate in our discussions. Let's not make excuses for someone whose obvious intentions are to harm the program and the people of scouting. Yaworski there are a lot of good psychiatrists out there. Visit one.

The old webelos badge is no longer in production and is available only while supply last. Since the tan uniform shirt is optional, I did take the comment about the BSA "wants" you to buy a new uniform at the beginning of Webelos as a negative comment. They have made it an option to give families a greater flexibility in uniforming a growing scout about to change programs, and to keep boys in the program for the crossover to Boy Scouts. I apologize for misinterpreting your intention. Bob White

I cannot fix your units program I can only tell you why the option for the tan shirt exists for Webelos and what the real scouting methods are. How each unit chooses to use or not use these methods are up to the leaders who promised to deliver a scouting program. Bob white

Actually the edits were typos. What huge changes. Things like the New Scout Patrol, First Class Emphasis, and the other methods I mentioned have been part of the program for several years. There have been some name changes but the methods themselves have altered only My question was specific to New Leader Essentials. In it the philosophy behind the difference in methods from Cubbing through Venturing are explained including an explaination of the physical, emotional, and social changes that a boy goes through from ages 7 to 20 and how scouting addresses those differences. Those were the kinds of rationale you were looking for were they not? i am not trying to dodge anything. But it seems you are painting with a very wide brush. Perhaps you could give another specific example of what you mean. It's possible that as in your previous example the underlying problem is that the actual scouting method is not being used. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

kwc 57, Do you see Tiger cubs as being more difficult than first grade elementary school? The problem is not the readiness of the cubs. The problem is that as leaders you have to start someplace. Most parents get their first experience in Tiger Cubs. So you have the most inexperienced leaders there. Thats why a Pack Trainer becomes such an important position. Someone needs to make sure these new leaders know and use the methods of Cub Scouting as soon as possible. Bob White

The BSA does not want a scout to buy a uniform when they become a Webelos cub scout. they want the scout to be in a tan shirt before he ends his time in Webelos. Because 1)most 10-year olds don't want to wear the same uniform as a second grader. 2)It helps to encourage Webelos to crossover to Boy Scouts. 3)Most boys by the second year of Webelos have outgrown the blue cub shirt and it is more economical for the families to put them in a tan Boy Scout shirt since they will soon cross over. The BSA does not care if you buy the shirt new, use a uniform exchange with a troop(which they recommend), buy at a discount shop (which they also recommend), or get it off the Internet. it's about what is best for the needs of the scout and the families not about selling a new shirt. Bob White

What problems? They got their own handbook, a belt totem instead of the paws that wouldn't stick to the shirt, and added a den leader position. The basic structure and purpose has changed very little.

Hey Phineas, You are correct that a scout only needs 3 nights of camping through the Life rank however to reach Eagle you need the Camping MB which is another 17 days and nights. And even if the scout doesn't have a uniform, as a leader you have a responsibility to give him the awards he has earned, so you'll need to figure that in. I doubt that anyone can accurately track the cost of reaching Eagle since there are so many ways to get there. What's important is how they get there, not how much it may have cost. Bob White Almost forgot, merit badge books, do to copyright laws, are not on the Internet. The requirements are there, but there is far more to the book then the page and a half of the requirements. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The New Scout Patrol is designed to meet the developmental needs of 10 1/2 to 11 year olds who need time to gain socialization skills and time to learn the fundementals of scouting. Such as basic camp skills, troop and patrol leadership structure and youth leadership skills. For those reasons the New scout Patrol is given a Troop Guide (age is less important than skill and ability to work with younger scouts) and an adult leader (the Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols). By the end of the first year the scouts should have achieved or be close to achieving First Class Rank so they have the basic skills to care for themselves outdoors. The have each attended a PLC so that they can see how a troop is lead and makes plans. They have functioned as a Patrol Leader so that they can make a more informative decision when they elect their first patrol leader. The New Scout Patrol allows troops to present skills at various levels without splitting up patrols, and without having to present skills at a level that is over the new scout's capability or below the level of the more experienced scouts. "Okay guys, today we're doing requirements 4,5, and 6!" If that is what is happening in your unit then that is poor execution of the program, not a problem with the program itself. Nowhere does scouting teach or promote such a teaching method. The BSA provides training and resources to help leaders avoid such erroneous behavior. The leader has to be willing to attend the training and use the methods. No rule or regulation can make them do it. The specific problems being brought up in this string are not scouting methods. They are problems caused by individuals choosing to reject or frefuse to practice scouting methods. You can't mix mud and manure and get a pound cake. Don't use the wrong methods and then blame the program for not working. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What you are leaving out of the equation is that Baden-Powell's program started at 12 years old. We now have 10 1/2 year olds with totally different needs and characteristics. Also the US program is not the same as Baden-Powells and hasn't been since 1910. But Japan's is not like BP's nor is Mexico's or Russia's etc. etc. Even the UK is not like BP's program. Why? because the kids aren't the same. You cannot look at the program used by the units you use as an example of how the program doesn't work because they don't use the program. Much of the philosophy of how we do what we do and why we do it is in the basic training of scouting. Have you been to New Leader Essentials? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Remember Mike we are not talking rules and regs here. we are talking about the methods of the scouting program. The two units you are discussing are not using the methods of scouting. The reasons the program recommends 6 months as the term of office are multiple. It gives more scouts leadership opportunity, it keeps a patrol or troop from suffering a year under absentee leadership (scouts tend to be involved in other activities as well. Many have seasons where the scout is very busy outside the troop by limiting terms to 6 months scouts can accept offices during the times that are going to be around the most). six months allows the scout to develop and then move forward or recycle. The reason for everyone to actively participate is to develop team identity and responsibility not to rush advancement(remember the advancement require does not say HOLD an office it says to ACTIVELY SERVE in an office). Also the patrol method does not say that you mix ages in a patrol. The recommended method is three distinct categories of New Scout, Regular, and Venture Patrols (some troops also have a fourth level of Varsity). by using this method you recognize the differ needs and characteristics of scouts at differing developmental stages. So as I pointed out your problem is not with the national program, its policies and procedures or its methods. Your problem is that the units you refered to don't follow the scouting program methods. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Then if I read this correctly, the problem in mike's situation is not in the methods of scouting outlined in the national program. the problem is in the artificial rules that are made by leaders in local units. Bob

It would be useful for new denleaders to view to understand the role of the den chief. After you view it you can determine if you feel it would help your den chief. Den chief's have their own training program however. Bob White

Mike, I may have missed something. Where in the patrol method of scouting does it say that a PL cannot be re-elected? Bob

This is were Scout Leader training and especially Wood Badge training come into play. Tell scouts what they should be doing and you become just another adult telling them what to do. You are no different from any other adult in his life. But scouting is unique, and using scout methods will make you unique. Instead of telling, ask. Ask the new QM what he sees his job as. Ask him how he plans to do it. Ask what would help him be successful. Rather than tell the scouts to pick up their gear, ask the Senior Patrol Leader how the patrol sites look. Let him tell you that there are clothes and gear laying around. Ask him what he thinks he should do. Wait for him to say that he should talk to the Patrol Leader(s). suggest that he ask the Patrol Leader(s) what they should do about it. The PLs should ask the boys to pick up their gear. Teach the scouts that a pack is a bag of bags. That it should be filled of stuff sacks or Zip-locks. When a scout takes clean clothes out of the zip-lock he puts his dirty clothes into the bag. No dirty clothes smell in his tent. No mess. When you see a scout doing things right tell them what a good job their doing. Be an adult that respects their input, That asks for their opinion instead of force feeding them yours. Let them know when they do things right and be patient while they learn. Be an adult unlike any other they know and they will respond to that difference. We had our fall camporee this weekend. My son's troop had other troops camping on three sides of them. One troop was amazing. each morning the SM woke everyone up by either standing in the center of their site and hollering for everyone to get up and get breakfast started or by banging on a pot like a 5'10" human alarm clock. He even scared the geese off the lake we were on. After muttering about his paretage under my breath, I went back to sleep. when I got up about an hour later all I could hear was the leaders of that troop hollering at the boys about what to do next. I didn't even hear my son or the other scouts of troop. When I packed my gear and got out of my tent all the patrols were up and either eating or preparing their food. No shouting, no adults telling them what to do. They even had water put on for the adults to fix coffee or hot chocolate. When it came time to break camp the same scene took place. The othe troop jumped as the adults shouted at them from all directions. Our Scoutmaster walked up to the new 13-year old SPL and asked how long he thought it would take to break camp. He asked where the SPL thought he should start and what should be the last thing we should do before we go. Then the adults took down their own tents and sat down with our coffee to watch the boys do their thing. Scouts don't need to told what to do they need coaching not bosses. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The Wood Badge Beads can be worn whenever you are in the field uniform. It is not for wear with the activity uniform or when out of uniform. See the Insignia Guide. Bob White

Ill bet everyone new this was coming....There are three areas of scouting that the BSA controls with unalterable policies. Uniform, Safety and Advancement. Scout run BORs are more than unofficial, they are a violation of advancement policy and are not recognized by the BSA. Every advancement application requires that the BOR was conducted by at least 3 troop committee members. This is not an area of scouting where a unit or individual can do as they please. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not al all mk, I was refering to the comment made by another poster that if the boy had gotten decked by the PL it might have corrected his attitude and although the poster said he realized that was not allowed in scouting, perhaps a leader might turn a blind I to it. I felyt that would be more irresponsible as the act of not caring for the tent. bob White

I think ASM7 covered it very well. Bob

It's a very broad question to try to give a specific answer to. Within what period of time? 1st troop meeting; He is among friends and fellow scouts. We expect him to be treated in a scout like manner and we expect him to treat others the same way. We are happy to have him in the troop and we want his input in the things we do. 1st month: How to prepare for a campout, pitch a tent, make a comfortable bed, plan and cook a simple meal, indentify poison plants, the buddy system, fire safety, knife/ax/saw safety, basic first aid.

I have no problem with a PL strongly emphasizing a point with a scout providing it meets certain criteria; no name calling, no vulgarity, no physical contact, focus on the action or inaction not on the boy AND it is done out of sight and sound of the other scouts. I agree you can catch more flies with honey but somtimes the goal isn't to catch the most flies but one particular fly, in which case a more focused action works better If we are going to take a scout to task for being irresponsible (and I agree we should), then we better take the leader who was more irresponsible (one who turns his back to physical violence) to task as well. If you think a boy who returns a wet tent is better off out of scouting, then you have to want the adult leader that allows physical violence out as well. Bob White