Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Each Patrol on its own. Individuals are responsible for their personal gear and the scouts on clean-up on the duty roster do only the patrol cooking gear. The clean-up scouts are the cooks at the next meal so they get a second look at everying to make sure it's clean. Bob

Rooster, With all due respect to BP I would venture to say that his medical condition for the past 30 some years has put him well behind the knowledge curve of todays scouting. I never claimed to know more about the program, just an uncanny ability to read the materials and follow the methods, a skill shared by tens of thousands of other scouters. Some of who responded to this string before I did and whose input I agreed with, and yet, you chose to single me out for your sarcasm. I am willing to debate the topic, and you are certainly willing to any opinion on the scouting program and methods that you care to present. But why can't you leave the personal comments about me out of it and still make your point? Bob White

I'm not sure were to start Rooster or why you want to make me the center of this. I was answering kwc57's question concerning the purpose of troop meetings. I gave him a number of BSA resources that describe the program elements and methods, and explained why the troop meeting is not the place for merit badge classes except in a few well described instances. Returning to your first post you said "For the several week period that a badge is being offered," In the next post that became "An occasional merit badge session on the side," How much time do you actually take? "With a hundred or so merit badges to choose from, I doubt that any Scout will miss out on this opportunity." But a scout doesn't do a hundred MBs. Most do fewer than 10. If a troop is doing 2 or more a year at troop meetings and the scout is going to summer camp he may never actually have a chance to use and develop the communication and social skills that the MB program is to be instilling. "As for learning from an expert, the Scout should be learning most of the material on his own. The expert (merit badge counselor) is there to verify his work more than anything else." Sorry Rooster but that's just incorrect. You need to revisit the advancement materials on merit badges. The role of the counselor is to teach and test. They are not there to just test, and never have been. No not every piece of advice is gospel. Some is just advice. But some are the elements that make scouting, scouting. The advancement program, and that is what we are discussing here, is one of the most strongly structured areas of scouting. It is one of the 8 methods that makes the Scouting program what it is. When you change those elements that have been developed over 90 years by hundreds if not thousands of volunteers, and replace it with what YOU think is better. That to me is the height of arrogance. I'm not suggesting dak68 do it my way. I suggested (as did all the other posters except for you!) to do it the BSA way. He now knows the BSA resources that explain the advancement program. I will leave it to dak68 to determine who knows the BSA program better. You or the BSA. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

kwc57, The troop meeting serves multiple functions using a series of short segments and following a monthly theme. The troop meeting provides a catalyst for all other activities. It is where scouts learn and teach skills as a patrol, practice leadership, plan campouts and activities, compete against other patrols, meet people from the community, and learn to run their own program through adult guidance and self-evaluation. One reason that troop meetings being used for merit badge programs not a supported method of scouting is that it breaks up the patrol. What if the patrol leaders spend "several weeks" in merit badge classes, who leads the patrol? What if it's half the patrol that takes the merit badge classes? How does a scout learn to lead or how does the patrol involve everyone in decisions? In addition, group classes diminish a major growth experience that the MB program is designed to do. That is the character development that evolves from the scout having to contact the counselor, set and keep appointments and learn from an expert on a one-on-one basis (with an adult or youth buddy nearby). A very small part of completing a MB has to do with the related skill. Much of it is learning about career opportunities, the importance of continuing education, and making contacts in the community. If the boys are participating voluntarily, and an alternative exist for others, then I think the program is being run "right". Even though the scouts in the PLC decided to do this, it is the responsibility of the scoutmaster to guide their activities along the program guidelines. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual as well as the SM Handbook, and all levels of Scoutmaster training advise against this type of program because it focuses only on advancement to the exclusion of many other equally important program methods and elements. I'm sure an explanation of the purpose and methods of the troop meeting and the merit badge program would have allowed the scouts to make a more informed decision. Change your Troop meetings and run the right program. May seem harsh to some, but more important is it's correct. Bob White

I agree completely with sst3rd and mk9750. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

From national to region to council to district to units to youth. If we all agree that the youth are at the top than we are filtering up.

Hard to believe but I believe Tigers is twenty years old this year. it has been a program in development ever since it began. As far as the stars, scouts that already have the orange backing may continue to wear it with a 1-year star on it. Then on the yellow backing they would count the years as a youth in cubbing MINUS the one year on the tiger star. An option for them would be to do as the current cubs do and tha is to wear all cub years including tiger on a yellow backed star.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It just takes time for changes to filter up.

Check the Guide to Safe Scouting. I think you will find that the lamps must be operated by adults, fueled by adults, and the fuel must be stored under lock and key when not being used. Bob

Shemgren we agree on all points except for the COE needing to register. That is not a national requirement nor is it usual. The only position that national requires a registration on and waives the fee is Merit Badge counselor. Your council may have a unique reason for requiring this but it is not a common practice. Bob White

Mark is correct. You can achieve First Class with three camping trips of one night each. Star and Life do not require any. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You can find plans for a Space Derby system in the Cub Scout How To Book.

I think the real misfortune in sctmom's experience is that in a community where scouting is available in only 4 units, that none of them seem to be following the scouting program. Bob White

The unit commissioner and District Commissioner are totally different although they are both part of commissioner service the District Commissioner is the head of commissioning in the district including Unit Commissioners, Assistant District Commissioners, Rounttable Commissioners, and Huddle Commissioners. The DC is a member of the Key-3. The Key-3 is an executive committee of the District made of the District Professional, The District Chairman and the District Commissioner. They set the District goals and administrate all aspects of district service. ASM 1 In order to continue the discussion on the role of the IH and the COR I have started a new thread. Bob White

There seems to be a confusion between the IH, Institutional Head (I believe the current term used on the Charter paperwork is Charter Organization Executive) and the Charter Organization Representative, the COR. The Charter Org. Executive is the head of the organization, lets say the Kennedy Grade School PTO's Ethel Smith. Ethel is the president of the PTO, she signs the annual Charter Agreement, the Membership Inventory, and can sign adult applications (or can have the COR sign it). However Ethel is not a member of the BSA, she is not a voting member of the council and is not required to fill out a BSA adult application form. (No adult is a member of the BSA unless they complete a membership application.) Ethel asks Fred Jones to be the Charter Organization Representative for the PTO. Fred must be a member of the PTO and must join the BSA by completing an adult application. Fred is not a member of the Pack committee but acts as the chairman of the board of the PTO's scouting program. Fred is a voting member of the District and Council. Fred can dual register as a member of the pack committee (this is often done in units that do not have enough adults to fill all positions) or he may dual register as the committee chair. The Youth Protection policies of the BSA and the policies of the Guide to Safe Scouting, prohibit an adult from serving in more than one position within the same unit. The only exception allowed is for the COR to serve as the Committee Chair or Committee Member but no other position in the same unit. Since the COR is the voting representative of the Charter Organization, each organization may have only one COR regardless of how many scout units they charter. Although a Charter Org. Executive could be asked to serve on the district or council committee, they would have to be voted in as a member and would then need to complete an application and become a member of the BSA. This information can be found in the Troop Committee Guidebook, the pamphlet The Role of a Charter Organization Representative, The Guide to Safe Scouting, and in the Council ByLaws. I am unaware of any resources or bylaws that state anything different. Hope this clarifies things. Bob White

Through cooperstion with ScoutNet and features being developed by TroopMaster and other programs units can do recharters on their computer. However it requires them to turn in a diskette coppy for uploading and a hard copy for recordkeeping. The hurdle in online chartering is that the Charter requires signatures and that still requires a hard copy original for legal reasons. Bob White

ASM1 I think you are refering the the Charter Organization Representative. The Institutional Head is not a registered member unless they take another role in the unit, district or council and complete an adult application. the COR is required to fill out an application and become a regstered member of the BSA, the Institution Head is not, they are the executive officer of the organization, the COR is the BSA voting member. To say I'm "out of my mind" is a little over the top don't you think? Bob White

A good rule of thumb is "Be Prepared". A troop or patrol should be medically prepared to handle a reasonably likely injury for the type of activity they are participating in. Bob White

You are correct. Once the achievement has been signed off it can not be credited again to another recognition. If it could then the scout could do the same 10 requirements over and over agin collecting arrowheads for the same repeated work.

You bring up some interesting historical changes in the patrol method Mike. If you look further in those books you will see other changes as well. In the mid 60's we taught touniquets not direct pressure, we taught Artificial resucitation for drowning victims. earlier than that we told scouts to apply butter to burns. Over the last 92 years the movement has constantly evolved. Replacing older concepts with more current or effective ones. The Patrol Method is no different. When I was a scout in the 60s we had mixed aged patrols and it was not the panacea you allude to. When a younger scout was elected patrol leader it was very difficult to get the older scouts to follow. Boys naturally pal around with others in their age group, so to have a patrol of similar ages is natural to the social skills of a boy. Boys will usually see on or two boys within that social group as the leader, so it makes sense that the patrol leader be of similar age. As others have pointed out smooth running, efficient patrols is not the goal we are after. we are giving boys leadership opportunities and training. Nowhere does the program say a boy cannot be re-elected to leadership position. If their patrol wants to re-elect a scout they can, unless the unit has put a artificial program barrier in place. Are there pros and cons to these methods? Sure there are. But in the majority of troops, with the majority of sscouts, this is the most effective way to form and maintain patrols,and to develop skills that the program has proven to date. It is the method taught in all our handbooks, training courses and is used successfully in troops of all sizes. Is it the same as it was 25 years ago? No, but not much of anything from 25 years ago is done the same, in or out of scouting. Times change, kids change, scouting has managed to change their methods to keep up with both and still not lose it's purpose or impact. Bob White

If you read the appropriate chapter in Guide to Safe Scouting and follow the steps of the Sweet 16 of Safety you'll be fine. Bob White

Two nights. We usually leave at 6:30 pm Friday and return about 1 pm on Sunday.

We stress to the scouts to properly clean and store equipment as soon as they are done using it. I see unpacking to clean equipment so that it can be re-packed as a huge waste of time. If they don't have time to do it right at camp then they don't have time to redo it when we get home. Try this method (I learned 22 years ago in Wood Badge) at home for a month and let me know the results. Instead of telling you child to clean their room ask them how their room looks. Then ask them what they think they could do to make it look cleaner. Take the first thing they suggest and tell them that is a good idea. Ask how long they think it would take. Lets say they answer 10-minutes. Tell them to go ahead and do it, then tell them that soon as its done you will play catch or UNO or nintendo or whatever, with them for 15 minutes. After your done playing ask them what else they thinkj would make their room look better, wait for an answer and then tell them what a good idea that is, ask how long it will take.....you get the idea. Continue until the room is clean. After awhile you just stick your head in the doorway and they say "I know, I should clean my room. When I get done will you play a game with me?" You can do the same with the patrol campsite. Have the SPL wander in and sya to the PL "what do you think you can do to improve your camp?" after awhile the SPL will just walk in and the PL will say "let's get this place cleaned up". Bob White

I look at this differently so it's not a problem. Perhaps this same view could work for nighthawk and others. My son's SM and I have very similar backgrounds and understanding of the scouting methods and here is how we view this. This is not a troop problem. Since we do everything as patrols it is up to the patrols to know their members schedules and adjust accordingly. If a patrol knows that two members are leaving early then they are tented together. They break down their tent and police their area before they leave. That way the rest of the patrol does not do the absentee scouts work. If they are coming to camp late then they put their tent up when they arrive or tent with someone willing to pitch the tent on their own. If someone decides to come after the deadline for signing up the they buy their own food and are responsible for their own preparation and cleanup. So for the most part it comes down to individual responsibility and is no strain at all on the troop. We realize that the scouts have other activities and they need to make decisions on how to balance their participation. I would rather have a scout make part of the activity then to not come at all. We are willing to be extremely flexible as long as the scout is in full scout mode when he is at a scout event. Hope this helps, Bob