Bob White

Accu40, A common misunderstanding is that as a private organization we do not have rights to taxpayer funded services and facilities, and that is not true. That argument has been tested in several states and in all cases the courts found in favor of the BSA. Remember that we are taxpayers and have the same rights to taxpayer funded services and facilities as any other person or group. I know of no scout unit charterd by a public school. In every case that I know of the unit is chartered by a parents organization made of parents that attend a particular school. That is a huge difference from being chartered by the school. The school sponsors the extra-curricular activities such as sports teams, speech and drama clubs, the chess club etc... But the parents associations are volunteer groups that are legally independent of the school itself. They are no different than any other community organization and have every legal right and opportunity to charter a scouting program regardless of the hiring or admitting policies of the school. If the school does not want the scouts to meet there because of the values requirements of scouting that's fine, but they must turn away all requests from other outside groups to use the facility or they are in violation of the law. As I pointed out previously the City of Chicago tried to bar scouts from using public schools and the Chicago Park System properties for meetings and activities based on the argument that they were a private organization that did not meet the city's anti-discrimination laws. That was reversed by the courts as unconstitutional. So the argument about scout units and taxpayer based support is groundless. Bob White

"That's why Chicago dropped all its BSA charters rather than try and defend it in court." The city government of Chicago was a charter organization of a scout unit? I don't think so. In fact the City of Chicago did try to bar the use of public fascilities by scouting units and that move was challenged in court and found by the Illinois State Supreme Court to be a violation of civil rights and overturned the city councils ordinance (and the ACLU defended the BSA's right to use those fascilities). By the way I understandThe Chigaco Police Department still sponsors a youth law enforcement unit through the Learning for Life program. As far as my opinion not carrying weight, I never claimed it did. I simply pointed out the facts as supported by the highest court in the land. All you keep repeating are rumors and threats. None of which have been proven. Your not just singing a one note song, but it's a flat note. Bob White

I will say this before Merlyn does in response to something Evmori said. The BSA does indeed discriminate they make no bones about it. But according to the Supreme Court of the United States it is legal discrimination. Keep in mind that discrimination means to determine the difference between items. A good wine versus a bad wine. A stylish tie over a tacky tie. Good values versus bad values. Are all forms of discrimination. There are some forms of discrimination, in certain circumstances, that are illegal, and others that are not. The form used by the BSA has been judged as legal. Merlyn may feel they are illegal, but Merlyn's opinion carries no legal weight. He may feel it is immoral and he is welcome to his opinion. However if he is a member of the BSA and intends to reain one he canhave his membership revoked if he speaks out publicly against the BSA. Not that he doesn't have the right to free speech , he does. But the BSA has the right as a private organization to determine its own members, I realize Merlyn doesn't like that the BSA has rights, but then that is between him and the U.S, Constitution and the Supreme Court and I don't think either are about to change. Bob White PS The BSA has a Congressional Charter not a federal one.(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"To me, a signed merit badge card indicates approval. Same as whne you sign your kid's report card! As you say that what it means 'to you' but that view is not supported in any scout resource or scout leader training. "And by the SM giving the Scout the name of a qualified MB counselor, the SM is picking the counselor, not the Scout." What if there are multiple counselors available, doesn't a scout in the troop you serve have a say in which is closer, or known to him, or someone he would like to meet? What about when there is only one counselor, that is hardly "picking for him"? Again that is a personal interpretation not supported in any scouting resource or training. "Still looking for that page # about merit badges not being a recommended Troop activity" Good, I'm glad you are revisiting the handbooks. Try the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, and I believe the Scoutmasters Handbook. If you still have trouble finding it let us know. There are a number of posters who can direct you to the appropriate pages. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The Boy Scout Handbook tells a Scout he can pick his own badges but he must have approval form his SM & the SM picks the counselor" Actually it doesn't say any such thing. Page 187 of the Boy Scout Handbook "Obtain from the Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application and the name of a qualified counselor for that merit badge." It does not say that you require the scoutmasters approval. No advancement requires that you get an adult to approve you to learn something. It does not say the the SM picks the counselor. Just that you get the name of a qualified counselor from the SM before you begin. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I can't pick one red feather. It's like asking which leg of the stool is most important or a parent which of their children is the most important to them. Each is as important as the next. Bob White

Eisely, Your right I could have been more specific in my last post. A charter organization can remove your membership in a unit, leaving an individual free to register in another unit. They can do this for any reason they choose since it is their unit. Only the BSA can expell a person from membership where they cannot register in any Unit, District or Council in the BSA program. Hopw this clarifies things, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Accu40, The BSA does not ask what you believe. They require that you have a belief in a greater spiritual authority and that you demonstrate that that through service to that belief. Duty to God and country not God or country. A scout is reverent, not was but now isn't. Now I admit that there are some individuals who twist this into expecting traditional Judea-Christian standards, but that is not the BSA's practice or policy. I don't think because people disagree with Mr. Lambert's choice of non-belief that they disrespect it. I think they dislike it and there is nothing wrong with that. We make choices everyday between things we like and dislike, and we base everyday actions on those decisions. We wear clothes we like, we socialize with people we like, we eat food we like. Scouting likes it members to be reverent and it has the authority to restrict membership to only those people. There is no malace to the rule, only purpose. Bob White

You can award any advancement award as soon as the requirements are completed. It's unfortunate that none of the Webelos are looking to cross into Boy Scouting. It would be a good idea for someone other than the den leader to contact the boys and find out if this is true and why. Bob White

Merlyn, That does not change the fact that if a government agency chooses to charter a scout unit, they do not have the authority to lessen the joining requirements. Only the BSA can set minimum requirements and it is not altered simply because of a charter organizations membership rules, because the scout or scouter is there as a member of the BSA not a member of the charter organization. The US military cannot discriminate against it's own members but a scout or scouter is acting as a member of the BSA and so are held to the BSA's requirements. You have a non-argument.

"These units are chartered by the US military and cannot exclude atheists; ask Brad Farmer and the other BSA execs if they expect the US government to practice unlawful religious discrimination on their behalf. This argument is built on a false premise. It suggests that the the because the unit is chartered to a specific organization that the members are members of that organization and that is not true. Scouts and scouters are registered with the BSA and so are bound by the membership and joining requirements of the program they are members of. The Chartered organization, contract with the BSA, may have more restricive requirements than the BSA but cannot be less restrictive than the BSA. The CO may expell a member from participation and even drop them from the unit roster, but only the BSA can remove their membership. Just because a unit creates bylaws or posts on a website that doesn't make it legitimate. Only the BSA controls the scouting program, a fact testing and supported all the way through the Supreme Court of the United States. Learning for Life is a totally different situation. LfL is a separate division of the BSA and does not have the same joining requirements as what are known as the "traditional" programs of Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturing. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not believe national keeps much information on individual units, that is normally kept by the local council office. Contact the council service center for the area you believe the troop resides in and they should be able to find information on the troop. Bob White

The program does not recommend merit badge classes during troop meetings for the same reason you wouldn't do them during a Court of Honor or Patrol Leaders Council meeting. It does not meet the goal or purpose of the meeting. I dont believe anyone has said it would flush the program. Several posters have simply pointed out in response to the original question that teaching merit badges is not a part of troop meetings (see the Scoutmaster Handbook), nor is it recommended as a troop activity except under very restricted circumstances, (see the Advancement Committee Policy and Procedures manual). In order to do the class as a troop it needs to be a topic that the entire troop would get enjoyment and benefit from. It would need to be one that could be presented in a way to meet the comprehension, abilities, and interest, of a variety of ages at once. When a MB counselor meets with one or two scouts his/her instruction can easily be aimed at that age level. The troop program is designed to give instruction in three age groups in order to be the most effective. The Boy Scout Handbook tells the scout that they can pick their own merit badges based on their personal interests. It tells them to get a blue card from the scoutmaster and to contact a counselor to set an appointment to meet with them. That is the way merit badges are designed to be done. The program allows exceptions for summer camp under specific caveats. Can MB be done at troop meetings? Yes, but it should not divide the patrol or be a regular diet of the troop meeting according to the BSA program. Bob White

Thanks Scoutmom, My mind was in Boy Scout Mode. I re-read Laura's post and saw Cub Scout activity again. You're right of course, she shold go with the cub level information. Thanks, Bob

The Boy Scout handbook has a very diagram of going with support. It requires to scouts to perform the rescue. The swimming rescuer has a safety rope that is worn looped over a shoulder (use a bowline) and draped diagonally across his body. A rescuer on shore has a hold of the line. See the handbook to see how it is done. Once the rescuer has a hold o the swimmer in distress the rescuer on shore pulls the to safety. Make sure the swimming rescuer holds the line in one hand and points his arm to the shore rescuer. This keeps the rescue line from harming the swimmwer. Also make sure the rescuer on shore keeps a low center of gravity to avoid being pulled into the water. A good trick is to have them squat and put their left elbow on their left knee. This will lock them into a low profile position. Agian look in the Scout Handbook in the First Class swimming requirements. Bob White

Absolutely Accu40, Mr. Lambert is welcome to believe or not believe whatever he chooses, as long as he realizes that with choices come rewards and repercussions. Mr. Lambert may not believe there is a higher power than himself in the universe but he is finding out there is a high power than he in the scouting program. Mr. Lambert expects to be a member of an organization whose values he does not accept.As OGE would tell us musically "You can't always get what you want" Bob White

Acco40, This is not a religious argument. This is a matter of explicit rules and membership requirements. The Oath and Law of the Boys Scout movement, the advancement requirements and the membership requirements are specific. This is about a scout who ignores one of the required elements and still expects to be a member in good standing. Had he chosen to ignore "help other people" and refused to do service projects or good turns he would be just as unwanted by the movement as a leader or member. It is not the fact that he chose "a scout is reverent" to ignore. It is that he chose any part of the scouting ideals at all to flatly reject. You cannot choose a law in your community to not be a criminal. If you want to be a citizen in good standing then you must obey them all or risk the penalties. To be a member of the BSA you are required to accept the value system of the BSA. Bob White

There have been occassions in the past where the BSA has removed the Eagle Rank from members and non members. The BSA has the authority to do this because the Eagle is presented by the BSA not by the troop as other ranks. It does not happen often and is handled on a case by case basis. Bob White

There are all different types of vegetarians practicing out there. Treat it as you would any restricted diet. Have the patrol get a list of the specific things they will not eat. A number of camp dishes can be cooked with meat on the side and added afterwards, spaghetti is just one. There are a number of rice dishes, chow mein, tacos, pizzas, There are a lot of other pasta dishes besides spaghetti. Many do not require meats. There are vegetarian dishes that two scouts can bring to the attention of the patrol that would probably please everyone. You can also have the patrol cook in pairs in some outings allow each pair to plan and preepare their own meals. Bob White

It's interesting that this young man feels that by saying he has a belief in a superior being when in fact he does not would make him a bad scout. But when he doesn't subscribe to all of the scout laws and a third of the oath he thinks he is not being a bad scout. What kind of citizenship does he practice if he feels he only has to follow the laws that suit him personnally? Where has the scouting program said that one value is less important than the others or that as a scout or leader you need not acept all the valuse of the program? I hope the young man takes the time he needs to re-evaluate his philosophies and can find room for a belief that the values we profess to are given us by a greater power. Until that time he is misrepresenting both himself and the scouting program by remaining a member. Bob White

My apologies, I was heading out the door as I typed my last post and did not have time to proof read it. I have corrected my typos and am reposting for better clarity. bob Sure I'd be glad to respond. I can appreciate jbroganjr's frustration with the education system, as a parent of a 14-year old I share many of those frustrations. But I see little connection to that and the scouting program. I was a Scout leader in a troop during the time of the inner-city scouting handbook, and we followed the advancement program as it was written and we camped and taught camping skills, and the program worked. What it didn't do was bring more inner city kids in scouting, and that was the whole purpose of the program emphasis. When the BSA realized that a mistake had been made they moved away from the inner city emphasis. This is a very reactive program, but it reacts to the needs of young people and to the methods that best achieve our goals. It is not as reactive to societal trends. As far as the new training, I don't know if you are involved in the training process outside of being a participant, but what you describe is not familiar to me. The new training courses are mostly on multi-media, and interactive learning. If that is not what you experienced than your beef is with you local training team not the syllabus. We have every participant complete an evaluation after every course. In the last 12-moths we have put over 200 adults through leadership training and we have not had a single evaluation that is negative (and believe me we follow the training syllabus). Yes the program has changed and yes it will change again in the future. But the only program that matters is today's program. As leaders we agreed to follow the program, its rules, policies and methods. We owe it to the youth we serve to keep that promise. Nowhere is the unit program judged by Eagle scouts, popcorn sales or friends of Scouting. The health of a council is judged by two of those elements, but the unit program is not. Take a look at the quality unit award. This is the minimum activity that national asks from a unit to be considered as having a scouting program. Popcorn and FOS are not even mentioned, nor are Eagle Scouts. But did you know that less than 60% of units nationwide achieve this level of activity. The problem that exists in some scouting units that are not achieving the aims of scouting is not in the method of scouting. It is in the delivery of the program within that unit. There are many units that wear scout uniforms that don't do a scouting program. That's the biggest problem in scouting today. Bob White

Sure I'd be glad to respond. I can appreciate jbroganjr's frustration with the education system, as a parent of a 14-year old I share many of those frustrations. But I see little connection to the that and the scouting program. I was a Scout leader in a troop during the time of the inner-city scouting handbook, and we followed the advancement program as it was written and we camped and taught camping skills, and the program worked. what it didn't do was bring more inner city kids in scouting, and that was the whole purpose of the program emphasis. When the BSA realized that a mistake had been made they moved away from the inner city emphasis. This is a very reactive program, but it reacts to the needs of young people and to the methods that best achieve our goals. It is not as reactive to societal trends. As far as the new training, I don't know if you are involved in the training process outside of being a participant, but what you describe is not familiar to me. The new training courses are mostly on multi-media, and interactive learning.If that is not what you experienced than your beef is with you local training team not the syllabus. We have every participant complete an evaluation after every course. In the last 12-moths we have put over 200 adults through leadership training and we have not had a single evaluation that is negative (and believe me we follow the training syllabus). Yes the program has changed and yes it will change again in the future. But the only program that matters is today's program. As leaders we agreed to follow the program, its rules, policices and methods. We owe it to the ypouth we serve to keep that promise. Know where is the unit program judged by Eagle scouts, popcorn sales or friends of Scouting. The health of a council is judged by two of those elements, but the unit program is not. Take a look at the quality unit award. This is the minimum activity that national asks from a ubit to be considered as having a scouting program. Popcorn and FOS are not even mentioned, nor are Eagle Scouts. But did you know that less than 60% of units nation wide achieve this level of activity. The problem that exists in some scouting units that are not achieving the aims of scouting is in in the method of scouting. It is in the delivery of the program within that unit. There are many units that wear scout uniforms that don't do a scouting program. That's the biggest problem in scouting. Bob White

One of the lessons of MB work is for the scout to learn to set goals and follow through. It is really not the MB counselors job to follow through on partials. Merit badge work is the responsibility of the individual scout. They have until their 18th birthday to complete the merit badge. What the MB counselor needs to work out is who holds the partial merit badge until the scout begins work on it again. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures handbook says that partials from a summer camp are to be returned to the scoutmaster. That is largely to make sure that the scout continues at home with a qualified, registered, MB counselor. This would be a good policy to follow after a MB university. If a scout began by meeting with a local counselor, then the counselor usually retains the blue card until the MB is completed. If the scout changes counselors or if he sets the MB aside for awhile then the card should probably be returned to the Scoutmaster to retain until a new counselor is secured. Bob White

A good place to start is by contacting your school and church and asking if they charter a Cub Scout program. Then visit it and see what is going on. Another good place to begin is in the white page of your phone book under Boy Scouts of America. You should find a listing for your local scout service center. Call and get the name of your local Scouting professional. They can get you the information on Cub Packs in your area. Welcome to scouting. Bob White

Rooster, take a look at your last 3 posts. If you remove your references to me and quotes from my posts you have no content. Try focusing on the topic. If you have a method that you feel is superior to the BSA program then present it. Relate it to the existing scouting methods and explain why your way is better. I'll reference the scouting method and explain how it works to meet the aims of scouting, and the other posters can do the same for their viewpoints. The readers can then determine which path they want to take. But you should be able do that without the personal jabs. Attack the question not me. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)