Bob White

The BSA on a number of occasions have said that based on a decades old relationship with the Girl Scout organization the BSA will not be co-ed at the cub and scout level. The last time I heard this reinforced was last August at Philmont Training Center when the questio was posed to a panel of division directors from the national office. Bob White

Merlyn, My guess is to let anyone reading the document or questioning if the scouting program is doing any unlawfull activity on military bases know that the military will not allow any group to practice unlawfull activities with its member families. Thankfully the Scouting program does not do anything unlawfull in its membership rules. Keep in mind there are no membership policies in the BSA allowing discrimination based on race or color. There is only a rule on lack of religion (I realize we disagree on that being religious discrimination.) Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

AnnaLisa, My purpose was not to start an argument, but to seek the purpose of the thesis. The BSA does treat women as equals, it is the personal attitude of individuals members that you have a problem with. My question is how will a survey of opinions lead to an improvement of scouting. What if the vast numer of respondents are negative regarding womens involvement. Will that make them right? What if the vast numbers are pro-women involvement, will that change anyones opinion? The BSA says that women, with the exception of housing and showers, are equals. They can hold all the same offices, take the same training, can attend all the same activities, wear the same uniform. Where does the program treat women differently? It is unfortunate that not all volunteers are able to put aside personal predjudice when dealing with women. But the ones who do not respect women in scouting, do not respect women outside of scouting either. I'm just curious how your thesis will result in change. Again I'm am not dicouraging you from your PHD, and perhaps your council has a different end goal for the doctoral work. A survey that proves there are adults who do not like women involved at certain levels of scouting does not seem in itself to be news to anyone. The goal of commissioner service is to insure that every eligible youth has the opportunity to belong to a quality scouting program. How will your survey effect that goal? Bob White

You keep misrepresenting the contents of the CNFJ 5720.11F. It says the BSA cannot take part in unlawfull discrimination, and the courts say that the BSA DOES NOT discriminate unlawfully. Did you mention that to the PA officer? What evidence do you have that the Supreme court did not see that would change that legal decision? By the way the CNFJ 5720.11F also says that the FECBSA and Girl Scouts are responsible for public relation matters relating to their programs. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn, Your lack of knowledge of the scouting program has caused you to write a number of inaccurate statements. The most misleading being your representation of CNFJ 5720.11F which creates the operstional procedures for the FECBSA in serving military families and the managerial oversights and obligations of the DOD in regards to the BSA and the Girl Scouts. That document recognizes the BSA as a Private Organization serving youth members of DOD families. as well as non-DOD members. It does not require the BSA to change any of its values. It does say in section 4.5.4.1. that the FECBSA and the USAGSO-WP Will not: Permit unlawful discrimination in their membership based on race, color, religion, or national origin. So they see the BSA as a private organization and they cannot permit unlawful discrimination. which takes us directly back to the supreme court ruling which says that the BSA as a private organization does not discriminate illegally. The DOD reviews the FECBSA on an annual basis. If you believe that every military base in the far east is turning a blind eye to discrimination then your complaint is woth the US military. As far as your tax money you need to read that document again. Scouts are given proportional support equal to any other family member involved in a other activity on the base. The cost of service provided the scout units must be re-imbursed. So there is no additional tax obligation to you whether there was a scout unit there or not. There is no dishonesty on the part of the BSA you keep saying there is but that does not make it so. By the evidence you sited yourself the BSA did not alter its values or violate the agreement with the DOD. So what do you hope to accomplish for your cause by posting here? Bob White

OGE, My point that Merlyn continues to avoid is that his disagreement is with the governemrnt agencies that willing use the scouting program. What does he want of us on this board. Any organization that asks to use the scouting program and agrees to abide by the values and methods recieve a charter. if Merlyn doesn't like the groups that want to use scouting then he should tell them not us. Let me ask this. Would everyone that reads this board that is the executive officer or chartering organization rep for a Pack or Troop that is sponsored by a Governement agency please resond to this post so that we can see how many people there are here that is actually affected by Merlyns concern. Unless there are people such as this on this board Merlyn is spitting in the wind here. One last thing. Keep in mind that the BSA is saying you cannot be a leader if you refuse to aspire to the goals of scouting. You could be a practicing Christian and if you refuse to teach scouts about duty to God or about the chararcter trait of reverence then the BSA can revoke your membership. By Avowing to atheisim you are saying you reject a core purpose of the program. Merlyn overlooks or refuses to accept what the purpose of scouting is. it is not to be Eagle, or go camping or build a fire rubbing sticks together. It is about making "to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law". For scouting to accept avowed athiests the BSA would have to change their mission, and that is what I bet is Merlyn's true goal. he does not want athiests in scouting, he wants God out of scouting. So I want to know what gives him the right to dictate what the pupose of our organizqation should be! Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn, Now we are getting some place I hope, I understand your motivation is to fight discrimination against atheists. My question was how to propose to do that here. What will your posts to a bunch of adults who knowingly volunteer their tiome to lead an organization that we know is based largely on A Duty to God do for your cause. "Yes, and the BSA signed an agreement not to discriminate on the basis of religion; yet it does just that." No it doesn't! Which religion do we discriminate against? The BSA discriminates against a proclaimed lack of religion, thats a big difference. The BSA has said from the very start that we are predicated on a duty to God. Even people who were never scouts know the parts of the Oath and Law. We have been up front with that for over 90-years. If you feel that our discrimination against a lack of religion is illegal I suggest the most constructive thing you can do is gather all your documentation, get the backing of the ACLU or similar organization and take your case to court. But you seem to know alot of facts and figures, perhaps you have the docket number of when this came before the U.S. Supreme Court and they found in favor of the BSA. So if the Supreme Court says you are wrong, what do you expect to accomplish here? Do you expect us to overturn the Supreme Court or do you expect us to take your personal opinion over theirs? Or do you expect to take your lack of knowledge on the scouting program and how organizations use the program and continue to post enough misinformation to muddle the issue? So now which religion is it we discriminate against? Bob White

Merlyn, 1st, I would appreciate an answer to the question I have posed. What are you trying to accomplish here? Second, there are a lot of people in the navy, I don't know who you spoke with or their relationship to a scout unit. But if a navy base is the chartering organization for a scouting unit then someone had to ask to use the Scouting program. Someone had to sign the charter agreement, someone in the Navy had to read and signed an adult application. Someone representing the charter organization knows and agreed to the values of scouting. The BSA didn't force them to be a charter organization, they chose to, and they chose to abide by the values, policies and methods of the scouting program. So your beef isn't with the BSA. If you think they shouldn't be a charter organization then you should tell them not us. We have nothing to do with a group asking for the program and agreeing to the values. When you tell the Navy, keep in mind that 75% of all the graduates from US military academies were scouts. Now back to question one. Do we get an answer or not? Bob White

Hi ozemu, I wasn't saying you were flippant. I think you raised a good point that there was another way to look at her question than I percieved. In the US women are treated by the BSA exactly the same way men are. They take the same training, can hold all the same offices, wear the same uniform. Girls in Venturing are treated as other youth members, they participate in the same program and have the same advancement opportunities as the males. Unfortunately not all volunteers treat them the same but that is a problem with the individual and not the BSA. Again the hurdle remains how to use the results to influence scouting for the better in her community. How to you take a survey on opinions and turn it into an action? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And again AnnaLisa, if that is your intent then what is the goal. The BSA is not going to remove female leaders or female involvement in venturing. The leaders who do not want womwn in scouting will not change until they choose to. So how will the survet be turned into an sction? Bob

AnnaLisa, With all due respect to you and to the hard work of a Commissioners PHD, how exactly will this thesis improve commissioner service to scouting? Regardles of the pros and cons you gather the BSA has made it very clear that except for the coed Venturing program the Boy Scout and Cub Scout program will remain for male youth members only. Shouldn't the work you do in your thesis help to better scouting in your community. Having served as Dean in a multi-council college, one element of the PHD. that was required was it must have function, it had to lead to action that improved scouting and made a difference in service to units and scouts. Once you have amassed personal opinions, how will that survey be turned into action when than action has already been decided upon? I encourage you to continue your work in commissioning and I hope you will consider redirecting your doctoral efforts. Bob White

TJ, You are still mixing up scouting terminology. The Mission of Scouting is our purpose. It includes living by the elements of the oath and law. The 3 Aims of Scouting are the areas of life we feel we can impress the most through the scouting program in order to achieve the mission. The methods of Scouting (there are 3 sets of methods, one for each of the three traditional programs) are how we influence the aims to achieve the mission. Mission-Why we do Aims- What we do Methods- how we do Please borrow the NLE training kit form your district training chair and review the information. This is covered in the First 20 minutes. I always refer to the BSA because every country's program is a little different-some are very different. If you are looking for the program used by BP it doesnt exist anywhwere anymore. Even the UK program has evolved beyond the original program. The world is different than in 1907, the kids are different, science has evolved, learning techniques improved. Much of the Patrol Method is still straight from BP the elements and purpose of the Troop meeting is still what BP developed. That is why it is so important to use those tools correctly. BP started a wonderful movement but I think if we didn't become more than what he began in 1907 he would be very disappointed in us today. As long as you are leading a program in the United States you might as well use the program of the BSA. Again as far as homosexuality the BSA is not rejecting the individual, they reject the values which we see as inconsistent with Mission, Oath and Law. Do not confuse the Aims of Scouting with the Mission of Scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

TJ "Here's where we disagree: the "purpose of the [scouting] program" is not to be a faith-based organization. Scouting's purpose is to build citizens of good character and leadership. Among the many methods we utilize to accomplish that purpose is teaching a Scout his Duty to God." That is not an accurate representation. In fact you have it in reverse. The purpose or mission of the Boy Scouts of America is "to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." So "Duty to God" a major point of the Oath, and being reverent a point of the Law is the purpose of the program. Character development, Citizenship training and Mental and physical fitness, are the three aims or specific areas of development we try to affect through the use of various specific Methods of scouting. (This is one on the things explained in the New Leader essentials training course.) So Duty to God is and always has been a goal, character development is an avenue to achieve that goal. If someone states flat out that they are unwilling to accept the goal then their participation is pointless. They will never succeed in the mission of the program. You need to remove the idea that the BSA is about church. "Church" is not a concept that is recognized by all religions, nor is it one that scouting is focused on. Certainly being active in a church, synagogue, temple, coven, whatever term a religion uses is evidence of trying to fulfill ones duty it is not the only way. The BSA does not require professing a specific religion. The Boy Scouts of America asks that you recognize an obligation to God, and does not even try to define what God is for anyone. In addition it expects you to have an active religious life, and then does not go on to define that but leaves it to the individual heart. How more liberal can they be? Albert Schweitzer the great humanitarian said "no man can be truly happy until he learns to serve others". In much the same way, scouting the BSA says that until you recognize that the world, the community and society doesn't center on your existence, that there is a higher power that makes man unique, you cannot be a complete person. That is the BSA's opinion and that is what they have based the program on. It is a value that is key to scouting. You need to flip flop your premise in order to be accurate with the structure of scouting. Perhaps that is the factor that has caused so much confusion. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

TJHammer and ScouterPaul, I think you miss the point. The BSA does not say that if you are athiest or homosexual that you are a bad person (it is unfortunate we have some volunteers who say that, but they do not represent the BSA). The programs stance is that in order to lead scouts in a value based program you have to believe in those values and set the example in your life for the scouts to follow. If you are a scout and these are the values of scouting then you need to embrace those values. It is about the the individuals ability to teach or achieve the goals of the program, it is not about the value of the individual. If the purpose of the program were to be a swimmer, and you absolutely refused to get in the water, then there is no point in you being in the program. If your job was to teach the swimmer, and you did not believe that people should swim, then there is no point in hiring you as a swim instructor. We do not ask the youth to be a great swimmer, we ask that they want to swim and be willing to get in the water. We even accept different strokes for different folks. We don't expect every instructor to be a great swimmer. We ask that they be able to get in the water with a positive attitude and show the youth that swimming is a good thing. The BSA has never accused the people who do not meet the membership requirements as being bad, just unable to achieve the goals of the program. I am surprised that Merlyn is suddenly unable to speak for himself. I understand his motivation, I do not understand what he expects to accomplish in this thread. Why should we as leaders value his view enough to change our minds when he does not know or understand the program beyond this one issue. Why address the issue to us when we do not determine the mission of the program, we volunteer to carry it out. We do not make the laws or interpret the constitution. So what is he trying to accomplish here? I would appreciate him anwering for himself. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I appreciate your perspective littlebillie, however the question is directed at Merlyn specifically and up to this point he has been able to speak for himself. I feel it is important that we not speculate or create answers for him, and guessing what someone else is thinking truly isn't fair to anyone. I would like to know from Merlyn what his purpose is for posting here. As far as professionals looking in, if that is the plan it's a bad one. Professionals didn't make this decison, volunteers did. We pay the professions to to administrate it. The volunteers who made and maintaint this policy are not unit leaders. They are Charter Organization representatives. So this is still not a group that determines the rules that he doesn't like. I appreciate that you think an ethical athiest can join, the fact is he can't. If a scout cannot show evidence of "duty to God" or fullfill his pledge of reverence than he cannot be a member. I an adult does not subscribe to all the values of scouting, they cannot be a member. This is not up to individual opinion. Merlyn you asked for a discussion I have offered one. Let's discus your purpose here. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Why isn't the BSA honest enough to not issue charters to government agencies, which the BSA knows can't enforce its religious requirements?" But that's not the case at all Merlyn. Every Charter organization is aware of the scouting membership requirements and if they agree to accept them then they are granted a charter by the BSA. If they choose not to accept the requirements then the BSA does not issue the charter. So there is no dishonesty. At this point in time no court has said that a government entity cannot Charter a unit. "And I don't understand those of you who say you don't understand my motives.." We understand your motive what we don't understand is what you expect to accomplish. We do not set BSA policy, we not make court decisions. We do not for the vast majority disagree with the policy and you are unknown to us so you carry very little weight if any at all in forming our opinion. So the question remains, why do you post here? What do you hope to accomplish here? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn, Let me ask you a question. What specifically do you hope to accomplish by your participation in this thread? We are a very small sampling of the hundreds of thousands of volunteers. So if you think we we have any authority to change the very structure of American scouting...we don't. You are continually bringing up points that have either already been tried in the courts and found in favor of the BSA, or are in the courts now and nothing we say in this thread will change the outcome. We have no personal knowledge of you, no reason or grounds for a trusting relationship. You come to us with no special qualifications other than your opinion. You very little knowledge of the scouting program other than the fact that we have joining requirements that you don't agree with, and yet you seem surprised that you carry no credibility with us. As a unit volunteer if tomorrow the courts decided that the government agencies could not charter scout units it would not alter my life one iota. My son's troop would still meet on Monday at 7 p.m. and that is the case with nearly every unit in the country. Others would simply transfer adult and youth memberships to another Chartering Organization. As a district volunteer I would be looking for addition charter organizations, but I do that now. So if you think that such a decision would bring scouting to its knees it won't. And even if it did, it would appear from your posts that that you would not find that to be a bad thing So I ask, if you are not a scouter (and you are not), and you don't like scouters (and you don't), and your comments here won't change the program (and they won't), what is your purpose for posting here? Note to DeLukas, If indeed you are an Eagle Scout you need to rethink the language and lack of courtesy you have shown since your first posting. I have worked with well over a hundred Eagle Scouts in my time in scouting and your behaviour is not reflective of any of them. Bob White

I think I might know what red feather is shooting for. According to the New Testament, when Jesus was asked to name the most important commandment he said that the most important was to love your neighbor as you love yourself. If you think about all the other commandments, they would all be taken care of if you loved your neighbor. You wouldn't lie to somene you loved, you wouldn't steal from them you wouldn't kill them. By following that one simple rule all others would be uneeded. In the Scout Law, if one were reverent, if you loved and respected your God (by whatever name you called him/her) you would follow the teaching and live the life asked of you by your religion. That same golden ruled spoken of in the Bible exists in nearly every religion in the world. If a scout were reverent he would be trustworthy, loyal, helpful......and there would be no need to for listing the other 11 points. Bob White

I can see your point OGE but this string has been refering to BDUs, Battle Dress Uniforms, that's military, and it violates our congressional charter. We live in a rural area where we have lots of hunters. I would never want the scouts to be in camo that could very dangerous. Bob White

le Voyageur, The restriction comes from our congressional charter that restricts the BSA from having uniforms that imitate military uniforming. (Sea Scouts are exempt since the Navy is not considered by definition "military".) Bob White

Keep in mind Merlyn is not a scouter. He is someone trying to create fractures within scouting to promote a political agenda.. No one in scouting would characterize a District Committee Chair as a high ranking scouting official. At best Mr. Schmidt is a high ranking local community volunteer. There are several hundred local District Committee Chairs in the country. They are administrators of local scouting but are not spokespersons for or high ranking officials of the BSA. Bob White

from the Vision Statement of the Boy scouts of America The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. In the future Scouting will continue to Offer young people responsible fun and adventure; Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law; Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership; Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program. Bob White

Merlyn, I stand by both posts. The 28 units you refered to were not chartered to the city of Chicago except for a few with police and fire departments taht were converted to LfL units. The others were with Chicago public schools many of which were converted to parent or neighborhood organizations and continued to meet. As far as Glen Schmidt? If that was a reference from a previous post I missed it. I do not know anyone by that name. Bob White

Faith-based is a label incorrectly applied by others not the BSA. The BSA uses the term value-based. I think many people just naturally equate values with faith. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I talked with some friends and family who are volunteers in the Chicago area. I'm told that all but a few of those units remain in existence either with new charter partners or as Learning for Life units. Chicago Area Council has had a decrease in membership in the last 5 years that the volunteers see as a retention problem not one of lack of chartering organizations. As with many types of council, they are looking to improve the crossover ratio from Cubs to Boy Scouts and to strengthen the Venturing program to retain older scouts. But no one is having a hard time finding a unit near their home to participate in. The threat of lost Chartering Organizations just hasn't happened. It's a device that groups and individuals use as fear mongering. Kids and parents join scouting largely for the activities and character development it offers. Where they scout is more often then not a matter of who asks first, who is more convenient or where a friend already goes. I really do not see a situation when we will run out of Chartering organizations that support and share the same values that are supported by the scouting program. The Chicken Little strategy of "you'll lose money, you lose chartering organizations, you'll lose all your members" just has not been borne out in all the years that people have prophesized it. It is a hollow thread from desperate voices. Bob White