Bob White

Eamonn, Actually both you and accu40are looking at old uniform references. There ia no Cub Wood Badge any longer. There is only one Wood Badge Course. It is called Wood Badge for the 21st Century. The training neckerchief is the McLaren tartan with the ax and log and Troop numeral 1. The woodbedge award neckerchief that you receive on completeion of your ticket is beige with a patch of the McLaren tarten on the back. Bob White

Because boys come in diffent shapes and heights. The pants are unfinished so that they can be hemmed to fit the individual scout. Bob White

Always felt that the best pack is the one that fits you and holds the gear you want to take. Everything else is personal taste. Bob White

I think I've purchased one piece of scout logo camping gear in the last 20 years. The Coleman sleeping bags that they make for the BSA are very good and a very reasonable price for the quality and features. I bought my son a 15 degree bag and he loves it. Other than that I only buy the uniform and tee-shirts. They do have some sharp looking commemorative caps though. Bob White

Ditto to OGE Bob White

Our Cub Rountable has the following breakouts each month. >Tiger Den Leaders >Wolf/Bear Den Leaders >Webelos den Leaders >Cubmasters/Committee Members Bob White

While i can't come up with his name at the moment the person to direct your ideas to woult be the Director of the Boy Scout Division at the national office in Irving, Texas. I believe you will find the addresses at the national web-site http://www.scouting.org. I'd look it up but I'm heading out the door for an early morning meeting. Bob

Merlyn, I did look at the case you sited and it appears to be the case case that was settled in Oct. 2001. Notice there was no judgement. There was a settlement. So a judgement was not made on Count-2 that included the federal government. If the ACLU and the parties they represented felt they could win why did they accept a settlement? Why have they not pursued it in another suit? If they did could you please offer a link to that suit I have yet to discover it. Just as a side, note here is another passage from that site. Notice the term the courts use when refering to the points that the plaintifs hope to accomplish, they call it...PRAYER FOR RELIEF. HMMM sounds like the making of another ACLU lawsuit. Bob White

You all raise good points and as I say the rule of thumb is right tool for the right job. Bob

In my opinion, if the members of Mr. Lamberts Board of Review were aware of his decision to reject Duty to God, as the news article suggests, but still gave him his Eagle then I would say no, the BSA should not revoke it. Mr. lambert did not take the Eagle Award, it was given to him improperly by the adults on the board. Each member of that Board of Review should either agree to comply with the membership policies of the BSA or they should have their membership revoked as well. Bob White

All the BSA says is don't wear them and say you are in uniform. The uniform is determined by the BSA and not by individuals or units. You do not have the authority to alter the trademark uniform by saying "our unit wears BDUs instead of the uniform pants" any more than you can say we wear military surplus shirts with or uniform instead of a scout shirt. Be in the BSA uniform or be out of the BSA uniform but do not try to be both. Bob White

I know that if I asked a hundred scouts and scouters to describe the perfect scout uniform I would get a minimum of one hundred completely different descriptions. Imagine what national goes through trying to make a million plus people happy. The biggest problem is not the uniform. The problem is how we use the uniform at the unit level. Think of it as a dress suit not as work clothes. when I get dressed up I have one or two coordinated suits I wear. I change the accessories from time to time for a varied look but it is still a dress suit. When I am doing work in my shop, in the yard, canoeing, winter camping, fishing, I dress acording tpo the activity. No one set of clothes was designed to do it all. The scout uniform is no different. The field uniform is for dress wear. The activity uniform is for some outdoor and active events. but for the most part you should dress for the activity. now some will say that BDU's are for everything. Not so. In the military different branches and different divisions have specific duties. Different general duty uniforms exists for different military and naval units. Even the military does not expect one apparel to do it all. I can tell you that the national office is continually looking at and testing new uniform ideas and you are more than welcome to share your thoughts. Remember that it takes a long time to make a change in an organization this large. Just the logistics of a major uniform shift takes a long time to work out. So you need to be patient. I would not be surprised to see to a change in the next few years. By the way speaking from personal experience, the Philmont Staff shorts while I agree are better construction and have better features for active use than the green uniform shorts are not without their draw backs and they do not cost less either. So in the mean time, dress for the activity and the environmental conditions, wear the uniform for formal occassions, most troop meetings and public awareness events. Bob White

Willysjeep, It's a matter of the right tool for the right job. A pocket knife is a camping tool, a kitchen knife is a cooking tool, a fixed blade knife and large lock blades are widely considered hunting tools are are not considered appropriate use for non-hunting activity. When you think about it, aside from cooking situations, there really is no need for a blade over about 2 1/2 inches in a campsite situation. I know there are leaders who like their big knives that will debate this, but remember we are tring to teach scouts to bring only the items that are needed and the smaller and lighter the better. Bob White

merlyn, The links provided by you and OGe refer to a case that was settled on Oct. 24, 2001. it in volved only the Chicago School System and its affiliates and provides for Learning for life, carrier scouting and scouting for the handicapped to continue to be sponsored by the Chigacgo governement and afiliates and allows tradional scouting use of school property after school just as other private organizations and allows the BSA to recruit membership during school hours as other organizations do. This case did not include as plaintifs the federal government or the FECBSA. So where is that suit? I am still unable to find it. It is not listed as a pending ACLU action. Bob White

I have been trying to find the pending ACLU suit that Merlyn has talked about. I find no case listed through the ACLU regarding this matter and no current or pending trail with the ACLU and the Federal Governement, the Military, or the FECBSA regarding this agreement. Does anyone know the name of the actual suit or has any else managed to find it? Thanks for the help, Bob White

Korea Scouter, As they say on Family Feud "Good Answer, Good Answer!" Bob

But how do you really feel Jerry? Look, if I had any idea that AnnaLisa would have reacted the way she did I never would have asked the question. I couched my response the way I did to let her know I meant no harm, I simple wanted to talk to her about the overall thesis. Hashing things out with the experience on this board could not have done any harm to her work and just might have enhanced it. It very well might of sparked the more detailed input she said she was after, and from more posters. My first post may not have been what she expected but it certainly wasn't argumentative. It was more curious if anything. By the way Jerry, I did at least answer her question, something you have failed to do in your three posts on this string. So far all you have done is criticize my conversation with AnnLisa. Perhaps you could set your personal crusade aside on your next post and address AnnaLisa. Bob White

Hi meatball123, sorry you are having so much difficulty in the troop. First. there are a lot of abbreviations in scouting and we are guilty of using to many sometimes on this board. Judging by the content of your post I'm Guessing that you mean the PLC(Patrol Leaders Council) and not the JLT (Junior Leader Training) when you talk about the troop leadership. My best recommendatuion is Training. Work with your parents to encourage the troop committee to get all leaders trained in their scouting position. If you are a Patrol Leader (PL), or an Assistant Patrol Leader (APL) I suggest you get the Patrol Leaders Handbook and read it. This will give you great tips on doing your job properly. There is also a Senior Patrol Leaders handbook that you could recommend to te Senior Patrol Leader (SPL) and any assistants (ASPL). But quite honestly without a Scoutmaster (SM) that understands and uses the scouting program, you will not have the scouting experience you deserve. Good Luck, Bob White

I would hope that AnnLisa does not choose to run away from this she knew what she was getting when she chose the topic "HE thought it was an excellent subject, and I should have lots of fun debating both sides". Well enjoying a debate will be tough if she won't even take part in a discussion. Forgive me if I surprised her by asking a question in return but whenever someone tells me they are working on their thesis my first question is always why they chose the topic, what are they hoping to do with it to improve scouting? When you stop to think about it the question is a good one. If the purpose of commissioning is quality scouting then shouldn't a doctoral thesis advance that goal in some way? I would think that a discussion would only help in the development of the project. No lecture was given, I didn't challenge her motive or even suggest fraud. And I don't see where anyone has attacked her service or tenure in scouting. I am more than willing to accept in advance that it is a quality study with great value, as such she should have confidence enough in her project to discuss it without the theatrics. Stay or go is her choice, I hope she will choose to stay and discuss the project. Bob White

Whoa Jerry!, Where did I lecture her? Did I not support her efforts in obtaining her PHD? Did I not offer my opinion at the outset that the BSA program did not treat women differently and that it was individuals who did but not because of the BSA? My experience (and I shouldn't have to apologize for having experience) made me ask questions about her thesis. And why can't I ask her a question, she got to ask me one. And doesn't it strike you as curious that she should have determined the length of the thesis before she has completed the research or worked it to a completion. Why should she be so hesitant to discuss the purpose of the thesis, what she hoped to discover and how she would use the information for scouting. I apologize if I upset her that certainly was not my intention. But I don't think my questions were out of bounds oor difficult to answer. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Seeing as how the CNFJ 5720.11F is only 4 1/2 years old I would think that if the illegality of the regulations were that obvious then then military would have realized it when THEY drew up the regulations. Remember this is the government's document. But I'm willing to accept whatever the decision of the court is...are you? Bob White

Merlyn and you're surprised that a lawyer, let alone a government lawyer wrote a meaningless clause:) The purpose of it being there is that the military wants us to be lawfull in our actions and we are. So we meet their rules. That really bothers you doesn't it. So you spoke to someone in Public Affairs and convinced them the clause meant non-discrimination and not lawfull discrimination if though it is plainly written. So What. If your interpretation was correct I would expect that the DOD will be booting scouting out of the bases any day now. Lets wait and see just when that happens. Again I come back to what you expect from this group. Do you want us to over throw the Supreme Court or the military. Do you want us to rewrite the mission of scouting? We have no authority in any of those actions. what steps have you taken that bring you any closer to your goal? Bob White

AnnaLisa, I really think you have misinterpreted our concern. Having been involved in Commissioner Colleges for many years I was trying to understand the "research" you are doing and to what end purpose. I was made even more concerened by some of the things you have written since my questions. You have not completed gathering information, yet you have reached a conclusion "on paper, BSA does treat women equally. However in the real world BSA does NOT." and you already know the length the paper will be when it gets done. What makes 20 pages such an attractive number? I would hope that your conclusion will be based on more information than you used regarding female professional scouters. You have sampled less than 1% of all councils and none of national or regional services. Do you have any idea how many women are on the payroll at Philmont? For what it is worth to your research I don't care what gender the person is as long as they are of good character and do their job. It has been my experience that most of the volunteers and professionals I have worked with feel the same. My questions were not meant to be taken as a personal attack of any sort. I feel if you want people to be part of the research they should be allowed to ask questions about the purpose. As I said before I was not trying to stop you from your project, just to clarify it. Bob White

So Merlyn is it your contention that the BSA is wrong because you think the organization is bigoted or because it is bigoted toward athiests. And what is your definition of bigotry? Bob White

"Uh, no. That particular clause was strictly about nondiscrimination," No it's not. Here read it again.. 4.5.4.1. that the FECBSA and the USAGSO-WP will not: permit unlawful discrimination in their membership based on race, color, religion, or national origin. It does not say that the BSA will not discriminate. It says very specifically that it will not unlawfully discriminate. And the courts agree that the BSA in not unlawfull in its actions. Your personal disagreement with the supreme court decision does not change the fact that the BSA does not engage in unlawfull discrimination. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)