Bob White

I still don't understand what you feel would be an enforcible, workable, balanced punishment for a boy or adult that was not in a complete and correct uniform. You can't fire them, you can't fine them, you can't sue them, and you can't kill them. So what are you going to do specifically on a national basis. And if the SM is the enforcer in the troop then who gets to put the whoopin on the SM? Keep in mind there is no current policy or method that allows or assigns the authority to punish a scout to anyone other than the parent or guardian (except for removing a scouts membership). Bob White

Zahnada, You sure don't leave a guy much wiggle room to answer. Actually, I don't know what is in the new JLT plan. The committee working on it for over a year have only recently finished the trial syllabus and it hasn't even been field tested yet. You have some interesting ideas that are unfortunately badly timed. There was a national discussion board open to the scouting public for the last year to collect input from scouters. Now they have taken that input, and information from others, and they have a product that they are testing. So I guess what we should be saying isn't "Here is what they should do" but "Let's wait and see what they've done". You asked that we be open-minded when we respond, would it be fair to ask you to be open minded as we wait to see what the new training program consists of? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

While the use of tour permits as a planning tool is always a good idea there are times when it is not required to file one. One example is Patrol outings. A local tour permit for a scout patrol that is biking to private property for an overnighter, is a good planning tool but it is not reqired that you file it with the Council office. Keep in mind we are talking about a single patrol with no adults and no motorized vehicles or activities that require adult supervision such as aquatics. Another example would be a den pizza party where every scout is being driven by their own parent or guardian. A third example of not needing a tour permit is if you are going to a scout camp or activity being operated by your own council within your council boundaries. Of course when in doubt call your Scout executive and ask. Bob White

In the new Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training program there is a video sequence that covers this topic and it outlines a mix of some of the points raised here. the recommended process is a monthly PLC (Patrol Leader Council) meeting where the SPL (Senior Patrol Leader) works with the PLs (Patrol Leaders) to plan next months meetings and outdoor activity, with each PL assuming program and or service responsibilities to make things happen. Then 10 minutes prior to the troop meeting opening the SPL meets with the SM (scoutmaster) the main reason is for the SPL to do a quick overview of the agenda and the SM can offer encouragement and support to the SPL. After the troop meeting the PLC meets with the SM and SPL for about 10 minutes so they can do a quick evaluation of the meeting and remind everyone of the responsibilities they agreed to for the next meeting. For those looking for a way to improve their current methods this might be a good starting point. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't mean to play with your mind dan but actually the correct terms are Troop Junior Leader Training (1 day), and Junior Leader Training (1 week). However over the years different localitities have given them different names. BW

Seldom if ever do I disagree with KoreaScouter, but I have to offer a big HUH? to a statement he shared. "The illnesses we need to cure is that the official BSA green pants are not suitable for extreme outdoor activities," I have a pretty extensive arsenal of clothing in my closet besides my scout uniform and none of them by themselves are suitable for all extremes. If the uniform pants were suitable for hot dry weather what would the scouts in Minnesnowta wear? If the were great for arctic extremes what would the Florida scouts wear? The field uniform was made for dress occassions. The handbook even says so. It was never intended to be an outdoor activity uniform let alone one good for a specific extreme. Which uniform would you wear for water skiing AND snow boarding? You are expected to dress according to the activity. When that activity is a COH, flag ceremony, moderate activity meeting, BOR, or other formal occassion that is when you wear the Field Uniform. "and that BSA does not require uniform wear" How could they? Who would police it and what would the punishment be? If you violate Youth protection you risk financial loss from law suits. If you violate Youth Protection you could be expelled from the program. If you violate the Advancement policies the scout would continue to advance. But what would you want done to punish a youth or adult not in a uniform? Whether mandated or not the only way to control uniform wear is by the integrity of the adult volunteers. Mandating uniforms will not creatye integrity. Either the person accepts the responsibility to set a good example and follow the methods of the program or they don't. It comes down to hoping that the Charter Organizations choose quality leaders. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

When in doubt check the official resource The curent Uniform Guide. I believe you will find that there are only 4 possibly 5 specific patches that go on the red Jac shirt and there specific location for display. Read further and you will find that yes indeed a scout can display activity badges on the back of the Merit Badge sash. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I believe if you check the handbook you will find that Troop Chaplin is an adult position. the youth office is Chaplain's Aide. You will find the job description in the Scoutmaster handbook as well as the Senior Patrol Leaders handbook. Since asigning troop offices is a responsibility of the SPL you shoulkd be talking to him about the selection and have him offer the position to the scout. Bob White

Faiure to file a tour permit can have serious results. While it is true that the youth accident insurance is in force whether a tour permit is filed or not, the same cannot be said for the adult leader's liability umbrella. Without a tour permit you could find yourself personally liable without the financial protection of the BSA liability insurance. That would put your personal finances and assets at risk. Also, in the case of a National Tour Permit you could find yourself turned away at the door when you get to your destination. Most State and Federal parks and facilities know that without a tour permit you are not to be allowed admittance. It is always best to file the permit (remeber also that National Permits are sent by the local council to the regiopnal service center for approval so you need to allow alot more time for processing. Bob White

As always keep in mind that unless you receive special permission from your Council's Scout Executive you are limited as to how you can market a company's product. You do not have the legal authority to associate the BSA name or emblems (uniform) with a product that is not endorsed by the Boy Scouts of America. Without specific permission from the SE you can not wear the uniform, publish, print or mention the Boy Scouts of America or your association to the Boy Scouts while publicizing, selling or delivering the brand name product. To do so would expose you personally and your charter organization to financial penalties from anyone who sued over a problem with the product whether real or imagined (as well as trdemark infringement from the BSA). In addition you have no legal authority to sign any contract on behalf of the charter organization or the BSA. I don't know how much experience you had with this sort of thing so I thought I might give you fair warning. BW

Unfortunately Laura you were given a mix of good information, bad information, and folklore. Boy Scout insurance for the most part (and there are some slight variations depending on the financial strength of your council) is a secondary accident insurance paid for either by your council or by the individual units based on the number of youth at the time of your charter renewal. By secondary insurance that means that the insurance held by the family of the injured scout is primary and the BSA insurance will pay the deductible and any charges that exceed the coverage of the family's insurance. In case the family has no insurance then the BSA insurance becomes the primary coverage. The BSA insurance is door step to door step, meaning that the youth member (or potential youth member in the case of a guest that is program eligible) is covered from the time they leave their home until the time they return. It doesn't matter what they are wearing. That is a myth that has hung around for decades. If you read the tour permits or get a copy of the insurance (available from your council office) you will find no such stipulation. It never has been a requirement. The reason you are asked for your auto policy information is to 1) make sure you are a valid licensed driver, 2) make sure you will not be trying to sue the BSA or charter organization for damage to your auto, and 3) To make sure you have the liability coverage required in your state to drive. 4) If the accident is your fault (or you violated the Guide to Safe Scouting regulations) your liability insurance would kick in before the family or BSA insurance did. Suggest to your District Training Chairman that the trainers stick to the information in the syllabus. Hope this helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

First of all Ryon there is no method of scouting that includes punishing anybody. Here are a few tips that might help you. Whether your troop is 7 or 70 your job as SPL is to work with the Patrol Leaders. So if you have 1 patrol in your troop you should be working with one scout. Lets say you had 40 scouts (5 patrols) you would work with 5 Patrol Leaders. Each of those Patrol Leaders in turn are responsible to work with their own Patrol members. Lets look at the campout you described. Think of how the outcome would have been different if. At the PLC you and the Patrol Leaders reviewed the rules of the campout. Everyone agreed on a 10 PM alls quiet. When 9 PM rolls around you remind your patrol leaders that they need their patrols settled down and all quiet in one hour. After 10 PM there are some scouts in the Raccoon patrol that are still too loud. You go to the Patrol Leaders tent (wake him if you need to) and remind him of the time. Let him know you depend on him to follow the rule and lead his patrol. Ask him to speak to the scouts and remind them of the same thing. It wouldnt hurt to bring up a scout is courteous and obedient. If the scouts dont settle down go back to the Patrol Leader. Remind him you depend on each other to lead the troop. Let him know that it is neither your job or his to punish scouts, that job belongs to the troop committee and the parents of the scout. Ask him to remind the noisy scout of that and that if he is unable to behave as a scout then the committee and his parents will have the opportunity to come up with a solution. Your primary job is to help Patrol Leaders succeed. Ask for things to be done dont tell people what to do. Focus on your relationship with the Patrol Leaders. Remind them that their role is to get things done in their own patrol by building teamwork and mutual respect not bossing people around. Finally ask your Scoutmaster to buy you the NEW Senior Patrol Leaders Handbook it will give you more information on your responsibilities and how to do them. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ryon, Consider a different approach. If you take the game away from the scouts they will just look for an activity on the meeting night where thay can have some fun. In addition it is not your place as the SPL to affect the manpower of the patrol. They already have a patrol leader. Let's look at a way that allows everyone to play, rewards the the scouts that wear the uniform and encourages others to improve. How about monthly or weekly door prize. They can be scout posters, flashlights, patches, a handbook etc. For every uniform piece that a scout wears correctly they get to put their name in the drawing. A scout with a proper shirt gets their name in once. Shirt and uniform pants or uniform shorts..twice. Uniform shirt, uniform pants, uniform belt...three times. Uniform Shirt Uniform pants, uniform belt uniform socks...5 times. You could even count grooming for a one as well. That way everyone has a chance to play and the ones who wear the most complete uniform are rewarded with a greater opportunity to succeed. Think about it, Bob White

What you describe sounds alot like the New Scout Patrol program. Keep the new scouts together with a mature Troop Guide and an Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols. It's great to hear a troop use the program. I am curious, how many of your new scouts reach First Class around the end of their first year? Bob White

Woodbadge was just reworked and released late last year as "Woodbadge for the 21st Century". It does not teach a specific position in scouting but an understanding and use of leadership skills. These skills are effective and beneficial regardless of your leadership position in or out of scouting. We do agree that JLT and JLTC need to be different from Woodbadge in order for it to be more useful in a strictly troop setting. It will need to be a mix of scout skill, leadership skills and troop administration. Woodbadge has a fairly equal history as JLT. Both began in England under BP. Both were at their conception based almost entirely on outdoor skills. Each have evolved since then and gone through various developmental stages. Junior Leader Training has changed more frequently than Woodbadge and has far more variations. I am curious about the posters who say that leadership training should begin in the troop early on, when in fact that has been the program for over ten years. New Scout Patrol members are to rotate leadership every 30 days to let every scout attend a Patrol Leaders Council meeting in the first 12-months. Then as they are elected or appointed to a troop or patrol position they have an 'Introduction to Leadership Conference'. following that they attent the troop PLC meetings which should include a brief leadership training and then attend the troop level Junior Leader Training Conference that is a packaged training program to be led by the Scoutmaster. After that the scout could attend a council Junior Leader Training and if selected by the council for staff could attend the National Junior Leader Training Instructors Camp at Philmont. So the majority of development has always been in the troop, unfortunately it is under used by the local leaders. It seems that what is needed more than revamping what we have is using what we have. At one time there was a course called Junior Leader Orientation (Jello) which was done as a one day course on the district level by the district Training Teams and selected junior Leaders. It was used to supplement the unit training. Perhaps that needs to return. The root problems continues to follow us though. no matter how well the junior leaders are trained, if the Scoutmaster does not follow the patrol method and allow the boy to lead than the scouts will not enjoy the leadership growth promised in their handbook. Bob White

Zahnada, You raise some good points however you have overlooked some as well. Yes, all training in scouting should ultimately help the youth. But you need to remember that not all youth are Boy scouts and not all leaders are scoutmasters. Woodbadge does not include JLTC instructions because all volunteers regardless of program or position attend the same Woodbadge. Woodbadge teaches advanced leadership skills that help any adult in any administrative position in scouting. You are right on that we need a tool to teach SMs how to do leadership training in the troop, but I think that equally important is coming up with a device to get the SM to take the training. You are also correct that adults and youth learn differently. that is why the new Trainer Development/BSA 500 spends time explaining that difference. The BSA has worked for the past year to make improvements in the junior leader training process and is now in the process of developing the pilot staffs to field test the new program this summer. The new Junior Leader handbooks that came out last spring are excellent and I am sure that some of that content is reflected in the new training. I look forward to seeing what has been developed. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

littlebillie, You raise a good point, however it would be more appropriate if we were a democracy. We are in fact a Republic ("and to the republic for which it stands") and as such we are not majority rule. We make decisions based on elected representatives. Those representatives are chosen by those who participate in the process. In the case of the government they are politicians elected not by a majority of citizens and in some cases such as the presidential elections not by the majority of voters. In scouting the decisions are made by representatives of our chartering organizations that use the program. Not by a vocal minority whether in or outside of the program. The reason our founding fathers chose to rule by a republic was for the very reason we are experiencing in scouting. A true democracy that rules by majority would have no stability in their decisions. Laws would change as the winds of public opinion ebbed and flowed. The goal of the BSA is not to reflect whatever the current political mood is but to advance the mission of scouting. Bob White

You always had to record earning the Scout Badge with council. Just like with the Bob Cat in cubbing you cannot begin earning ranks until after you have shown you meet the joining requirements. BW

Zahnada, There was no attack intended. You addressed me and I wrote back. You mentioned that you felt I was saying you wanted the downfall of scouting and that is not true. You brought up numbers first and used them to show the faltering program. I responded with the current numbers to show that if that is your barometer then we are fine. I think the problem is you are buying into a scenario created by outside organizations who do want scoutings downfall. They manufacturer and exaggerate problems that do not exist, but they are able to convince some that they do. You say that we have not grown or advanced. We improved training techniques, adventure elements, learning opportunities through changes in the advancement program, the new venture program, ScoutReach. Just look at all the program changes we have gone through in the last 9 decades. We created cub scouts, explorers, varsity and venturing. We expanded opportunities to female adult and youth members, constantly added and updated Merit Badges. We developed High Adventure bases, COPE, and inner city scouting. 75% of Rhodes Scholars are scouts, 75% of all graduates from US military academies are scouts, over 70% of FBI agents are scouts, nearly every man that walked on the Moon was an Eagle Scout.There are over 30 Eagle Scouts in Congress today. Is this a program in jeopardy? The only thing you can sight in your argument is that some media and a couple small political action groups don't like our membership rules and some United Ways have shifted their budgeting emphasis away from the BSA and other similar organizations. I think it's great that you are an Eagle Scout. Be brave. Don't worry about what the media says, worry about your next troop meeting. Controversy comes and goes. Any organization that has been around as long as the BSA will from time to time be the target of others. That is no reason to change who we are or what we do. Respectfully submitted, Bob White

Here is my personal concern about leaving the bulk of the patrol method training to the troop leaders. Far too many troops don't use the patrol method or have leaders who are not trained and don't even know of the patrol method. I'm not saying that the troop level isn't where the training should be taking place. It absolutely is. The problem is it's not getting done now so what can we do to change it? So, if the troops are going to continue to be the place where Patrol Method training takes place then we need to make it a packaged, structured, canned program that is easy enough for a new SM or one with little or no training skills can deliver flawlessly. Then we need a tool that will encourage even the most tyrannical SM to deliver the training to the junior leaders. Lastly, I would make (as part of the training kit) a 20 minute video overview of the patrol method to be viewed by the parents of the junior leaders so that they would understand how we do what we do with their sons. I will have a better understanding of what is actually being tested later in the year (about Fall). I do know that many scout leaders throughout the country were asked for input and were listened to. I also know from past experience that no matter how good the new program is it won't please everyone. You just can't please a million plus volunteers. So whatever the new program is I hope we will all take a deep breath and rather than say "this is what I like and this is what I don't like", let's say "this is what the program is today and I will do my best to follow it". Bob White

Zahnada, I do not perceive you as wanting the the downfall of scouting, but I see your attitude as self defeating. How could you possibly hope to win a horse race if you truly believe you are riding on a dying nag. Also you seem to let numbers dictate the quality or success of the program. If you were a BSA professional it may dictate your employment status, but as a volunteer the only thing that matters is the quality of your next troop meeting and the adventure of your next outing. Rather than worry about the registration numbers on a national level, I would recommend focussing on the membership numbers of your unit (or if a District volunteer within your district). The program is not dying. There are political groups that want you and other grass root volunteers to buy into that vision, but the fact is thats just not true. I suggest we focus on what is, not what might be, and worry more about the scouts that you chose to serve not the small numbers of youth and adults that shout about not being able to join because they don't beleive in our principles. I agree with a couple of other recent posters about the real problems that face scouting today. > Troops as a whole do a poor job of recruiting Webelos > Too many boys leave the first year because many trops do not use the First Class emphasis program, and too many troops have boring outings. > There are too many untrained volunteers and leaders who run "their" program rather than the scouting program. > Scoutmasters who try to "run" a troop rather than train junior leaders. Look at the problems that are discussed on this board outside of Issues & Politics. You will see that scoutings problems seem to be who we let in, not who we keep out. This is not to say that this program does not have tens of thousands of quality volunteers because it certainly does. But it also has thousands of adults that are looking for a piece of life where they can be "in charge" and do things their way. They do more harm to the Scouting program and to the youth they say come first then is done by all the hype about our membership rules. Just my opinion, Bob White

Hi OGE, I happen to know that the pilot program for the new JLT is being tested this summer in at least one location in the mid-west. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Well said Eagledad, Another important part of proper uniforming is the lessons it teaches on good grooming and importance of proper attire to fit the proper occasion. Scouts neea to learn that to dress properly whether for work, play or socila situations that you have to think about how you look and what you wear from head to toe. A scout field uniform shirt with soccer shorts to a Court of Honor is no more a more appropriate than wearing a suit jacket and swim trunks to a job interview. These are lessens that they will use throughout their life, but it needs to be taught with adults setting a positive example and with respect for the boys you are teaching. Harsh words and punishments for poor uniforming will not motivate a scout to do the right thing. Bob White

Hi Craig, Sorry it took so long to see this post. My family and I are driving out to Philmont from Illinois for the fourth year in a row. We take a different path each year. If however I was going with a trek crew I would definitely take the train. Amtrak has group rates to Philmont. You end up at the station in raton and the camp has a bus that brings you the rest of the way. It is the easiest and probably the most time efficient and cost effective way to get there as a group. Bob White

The Freedom of Information Act does not apply since the BSA is not a government agency. There is no secret about the Rules and Regs manual. Every Council has one. It's just that imascouter's office can't find it. As I said before, it doesn't get a lot of use. It exists because by law as a coporation it has to exist. It describes the legalities of being a non-profit organization defines how councils and districts are established, the authorities of various council bodies, how elections must be held, what records are to be kept and by whom. There is really very little regarding unit operations that is not already available in more pertinent publications such as Guide to Safe Scouting, The Committee Handbook, The Cub Leader and the Scoutmaster Handbooks, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, the Insignia Guide and Tour permits. The BSA does try to limit the circulation only because if there were updates it would very difficult and expensive to administrate. Use the resources at your disposal. The local Scout Executive has these books, call and ask to come see them. Copy the parts you are interested in. Good leaders need to be good communicators. whispering fears of conspiracy or calling for openeness when you haven't taken the time to ask the right person the right question is not the kind of leadership we are trying to develop in our scouts. Let's not model that kind of behaviour as leaders. Bob White