Bob White

Hi acco40, I appreciate that the things you read here are not always what your troop, district or council does. the important thing is that leaders know and hopefully follow the BSA program. Unfortunately due to habit, choice, or error, some people stray or ignore the current program. Nowhere in the BSA program does it say that the SM chooses the counselor. The Scout handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual says that 'the Scoutmaster makes sure the scout has a qualifeid counselor'. Also, nowhere does the program say the scout has to ask for the Scoutmasters "permission" to work on a merit badge. All the references to merit badge work says that the Scout "chooses" the merit badges he wants to work on and gets a merit badge card from the scoutmaster. The first signature from the scoutmaster aknowledges that the scout has a qualified MB counselor. The last signature on the merit badge is a signed receipt to the scout that the card has been turned back in to be recorded. It is there incase the SM or other Adult loses the card. The second signature is not required to be the scoutmaster's just a registered leader in the troop. The second signature does not approve the Merit badge. The BSA program resources are quite clear that only a MB counselor approves the award. As I said before the problems always occur when we stray from the program not from when we follow it. Bob

Merlyn, My questions, your responses and my comments, were about what you are trying to do here on this board. Based on what you said your goals were for posting here, removing government funding, no action you take posting on this board could possibly affect that outcome. If I wanted a home loan it would not be for me to decide if I qualify or not. It is the responsibility of the lending institution to determine that. Your complaint is with the government not the volunteers of the BSA. Glen says that the BSA lied when the they agreed to accept the money, Well unless Glen is psychic he will probably have a difficult time proving that. But at least his actions have a chance of affecting his goal. Had you spent some time in scouting a volunteer like those on this board would have taken time away from their own family to help you learn to set clear, manageable goals. And you would have learned the legal concept of innocent until proven guilty through the advancement program. It's often difficult to evaluate our own choices. I offer that you might want to re-evaluate your goals here in comparison to your actions, and either alter your actions to meet your goals, or alter your goals to meet your actions. There truly are no fish here, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm not trying to shut you up Merlyn, I trying to get you to see that the wheels are spinning but the car isn't moving. You write posts to people who cannot affect your goals, You call the ACLU to get them to take action for you. You collect articles about people who actually invest their time and resources in taking action. It's like the relative who sits by the scanner and listens to the police calls and imagines he is there fighting the crime with them instead of just sitting at home while the real officers do the work. I didn't say you didn't make ethical choices I said your actions will never achieve your goals. The posters on this board, whether you agree with there choice to be members of the BSA or not, invest themselves in the program. They don't just sit at home and phone it in, or post articles about other people who are out there doing the work instead of them. It's about building a personal legacy and its different for every person. But it it takes more than just having an opinion and having goals. It's about connecting the two with a plan and acting on the plan. If your plan is to topple scouting by posting articles about what other people are doing about it it's a bad plan. It will not get your goal. Even if you swayed 100 scouters a day that we could not have that money, it would take you over 33 years to persuade every one of us (including weekends and holidays) nad even then you would not have gotten to any one of the people who asked for the grant nor you would have affected the courts who make the decision. Can you hear the wheels spinning now? THERE ARE NO FISH HERE! The people you need to persuade are not the volunteers in scouting it is the courts and they are not here. Make your actions count, set goals that your actions affect, use your principles for more than phone calls and cyber posts. Do what we train scouts to do. Don't just make noise, Make a difference. Bob White

There is so much more to who we are and what we do than merit badges. Troops that use merit badge factories as their program do so because they fell they do not have the skills, knowledge or attitute to teach character and leadership. They cant teach things, they understand what they can touch. It is a crutch used not to enhance the life of the scout but to stay in the comfort zone of the adult leaders. One person alone will never change these troops. It will require the infusion of a whole new group of adults or it will simple collapse on itself since it has no real foundation or substance. Your best bet is to leave for another troop. If no other troop is near or none use the scouting program then take the time you would have spent as a leader adn spend it on outing with your son. Sit down and learn the camping skills together, borrow merit badge books from the library and use friends, relatives and community leaders as counselors. Even if your son never wears the uniform or earns a badge, he will grow to be a better more capable adult than he would of become as a member of that troop. In fact I bet that after a very short time he would ask you if a couple of his friends could sit in on your lessons together. Then they would ask if their friends could join. Before you know it you will have a ptrol and soon you will find that you are the Scoutmaster you always wanted your son to have. The strength of this program is not in the Eagle Badge it is in the shared acceptance of the ideals we gain as we take the trail of scouting. Best of Luck, Bob White

Merlyn, Well now we are getting somewhere. Lets not even dwell on the all-white thing because there are hundreds of thousands of scouts and scouters in this nation that are not Caucasian. Lets stick to your goal. Everyone in life chooses a set of principles to live by. They are the constant unalterable truths we choose to govern every decision we make. For those of us who are scouts and scouters and even for many who aren't we accept the ideals of the scout oath and law to be those principles. That is neither right nor wrong that is just personal choice. Your life is governed by the principles you have selected. Principles are used to drive actions. I choose to be active in my church because I am driven by my belief that I have a duty to God and that I should be reverent in my actions. My goal in doing this is to live a life that respects the world I live in and the people that I believe God created. Whether or not you believe in God I hope you could agree that by following the principles of the 10 commandments one would do no harm to others and would probably make life pleasant for those around them. So my principles drive actions toward a specific goal that I can achieve by my actions. This is what I'm getting to Merlyn, you are letting others live your life and achieve your goals instead of you. Really stop to think about what you have said here. Your principles have determined that scouting is bad, we are liars, we discriminate, we break laws. So those principles have led you to the action of posting on this board. Your goal is to remove government funding from the BSA. Now be honest Merlyn, who on this board has that power? Who on this board by reading your posts will help you achieve your goals? Look at Glen Goodwin a person who probably shares many of the same principles you do and who has the same goals you have. Glen is taking actions that actually move toward his goal. Maybe he will succeed and maybe he won't. But he is doing something, he is taking action that could truly affect the outcome. Glen could have a legacy of being the person that took government funding from scouting and took government support from scouting. Your goals Merlyn. And what part of that legacy will you own? Do you think Glen will ever say, "Boy if Merlyn hadnt been writing to all those people who have nothing to do with changing the law I could never have done this!". The mission of scouting is to give young people the tools to make ethical decisions for their lifetime based on the principles found in the scout Oath and Law. We teach them to set goals and to take actions to meet those goals. The very thing lacking in your life could have been gained as a scout. My purpose in asking for you goals was two fold. That everyone here understood that there was nothing positive or productive in your actions, but secondly and most importantly was to help you understand that you owe it to yourself to do something with the principles you hold and the goals you hope to attain. Your current actions will never bring you the legacy you want. A man once sat down in an ice fishing shed and cut a whole in the ice. He dropped in his line in the hopes of catching fish for dinner. Suddenly a voice boomed "THERE ARE NO FISH HERE". The man raced out of the shed and looked around and saw no one. Returning to his fishing whole he again heard "THERE ARE NO FISH HERE" Racing back onto the open ice and seeing no one he dropped to his knees and said, "is that you God?"...."NO" said the voice. "IT"S THE ICE RINK MANAGER AND THERE ARE NO FISH HERE"! Merlyn the power you seek to achieve your goals are in the courts with people like Glen Goodwin. If you really believe what you say you do then put your beliefs to actions that might really count, because Merlyn "THERE ARE NO FISH HERE"! Make something happen with your life, Bob White

pfann, Youre partially correct. The National Office of the BSA determines the program elements and methods, and publishes policies and guidelines as you say. We as a volunteers signed an oath to follow the BSA program. Your Charter Organization Head signs a contract each year promising that you will follow the program. The policies are not there for us to implement as we like. Policies are the hard fast rules that you must follow in order to avoid criminal and civil charges and revocation of your membership. Guidelines can be altered but not policies. Advancement, Uniforming and Safety are all controlled by policy. The methods of each program are the parts we promised to follow when we joined. They are governed only by your strength of, or lack of, personal principles. The scouts know what is written in their handbooks, they rely on us to follow the program promised in those books. How can that be done if we don't follow the program. Every unit might have different features and calendars but think of how much stronger our organization could be if we could get every unit leader to deliver the same scouting program that we promised. Food for thought, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn, again you share your motive but not your goal. I understand your principles although I do not not share them. Priciples determine actions, achieve goals. You have shared your principles, we have witnessed your actions you post pending lawsuits. All I'm asking is what are your goals, what do hope to accomplish. There is a reason behind all this that actually is in your benefit. If you would identify the goals it would allow both of us to learn something. Bob White

Hi Marty, If I can toss in my two cents. You can't worry about how other adults will feel if you start following the program. If they had followed the program you wouldn't have to make waves now. You must keep your focus on who you are there to serve. You have a responsibility to give the boys currently in the unit the best possible scouting experience you can. Start by making sure all meetings are fun and hands on. Don't let Pack meetings be announcements to parents, that is what newsletters, e-mail and telephones are for. Then make sure the other volunteers know how much they are appreciated and make sure they have the resources and tools they need to do thier jobs. Work with other active parents to find a good Committee Chair and Charter Organization Representative. Get them started doing two things, 1)repairing the relationship with the Charter Organization and 2)holding monthly meetings to help plan and support the program. Don't forget the resources of the local District to help you get on the scouting track, especially the training staff. Best of Luck, Bob White

Hi packsaddle, I don't recall anyone telling Merlyn leRoy that he could not post here. This ia a question that goes back for months. The founders of this Board ste the purpose for it's existence as.. "a grass root resource to equip Scout leaders with the tools to fulfill their responsibilities... as leaders, as parents and as mentors." I see all of the posters on this board fullfilling this mission through their obvious interest and participation in the program, with one exception. Merlyn is not a participant in the program. His participation does not reflect the goals this baord was created for. His goal for being here has never been explained and I think he should be honest about his presence so that those who read his posts fully understand what he hope to accomplish. Merlyn has continually avoided answering this very straightforward question. BW

I think what you might be is confused about the purpose and methods of the program. The fact that the boys decided on it does not make it right. What if the boys decided that kids with lisps couldn't join. Would you accept that since it was the boys vote. I would wager the boys felt they needed to develop a negative outcome plan either by adult influence of from experience in other avenues of their life such as home or sports. Nowhere in the methods of scouting is punishment taught, suggested or exemplified, unless it involves the direct participation of the parents and committee in specific behavorial situations explained in the Youth Protection program and the Guide to Safe Scouting. This program has always employed positive tools to achieve the behaviour and skills expected from a scout. I don't know if it is hazing, but if a parent wanted to test it in a court of law and the BSA was asked to testify if the methods you describe are a part or method of the scouting program the answer would be a resounding NO. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

When in doubt read the BSA materials. The first paragraph of the National Tour Permit reads in part...."A National Tour Permit is required for all groups traveling 500 miles or more one way from home area (local council camp excepted), or crossing national boundaries into the territories of other nations." BW

You misunderstand EagleDad. My council does indeed track the number of Eagles in order to recognize them at a special Eagle event. But no where has the BSA ever used the number of Eagles as a measure of a units program. the eagle is an individual choice and is not the goal of scouting. if it were then we would be doing a terrible job of achieving our mission since only 5% of scouts achieve the eagle rank. "Oh well, I guess the farther away you are from the scouts, the harder it is to find common successes to praise." You'll need to explain to me what you mean by that. If you are suggesting that I have little contact with scouts, that's not the case. I am a unit leader and have a son finishing work on his Life rank. First Class in the First Year is more that a suggestion to Scoutmasters. It is part of the promise made to scouts in the first few pages of every Boy Scout handbook. Actually the ideal troop size I believe is said to be about 30 to 60. The reason is that at thirty there are enough scouts to have 4 patrols a a full compliment of Junior Leaders as well as a deep enough adult resource pool to have a sufficient number of leaders and committee members. The reason they suggest 60as a maximum is because with 8 patrols you have 8 patrol leaders. The BSA suggests patrols be limited in size to around 8 because that is a manageable number for a boy leader and still a natural size social group for a boy to operate in. So 8 patrol leaders is about all an SPL can handle effectively. There is truly a method to what some see as madness in the program. I was not criticizing what the troop was doing. I was trying to shaow that the method of dealing with new scouts that the unit developed was in fact the New Scout program that the BSA organized years ago. And I expect if you checked your advancement records you would discover that most the boys achieved First Class around there first year anniversarry. Another part of the advancement method. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is hwy it is important for everyone to follow the advancement procedures. A scout is not required to use any specific MB counselor as long as the counselor he uses is registered, qualified and approved to do that Merit Badge. It is unfortunate that units create this sort of abuse. Your scout needs to find another qualified counselor who will do the job correctly and get them registered and approved with the council. This would normally be the responsibility of others to do, but in this case I would get it done yourself. Good Luck, Bob White

Thanks Rooster, Maybe we have a civics teacher out there that can help. I checked a couple web sites and did find that some states have different methods of selecting the members of the college, but once they are selected they seem to operate the voting process the same. I also found this. "Most of the time, electors cast their votes for the candidate who has received the most votes in that particular state. However, there have been times when electors have voted contrary to the people's decision, which is entirely legal." Here is one of the sites I found. http://www.howstuffworks.com/electoral-college1.htm BW

Ogghall, Two things, you need to read the actual tour permits. The overviews are just that. Don't expect to get all the details from an overview. Second, you never have to worry about losing the troop liability coverage, because there isn't any. There is accident coverage on the youth members, and liability coverage on the registered adults. There is also liability protection for the chartered organization. But there is no troop liability. The BSA covers the youth regardless of any administrative or supervisor errors made by the unit leaders. The only thing that is ever at risk is your liability protection as a registered leader. If a scout is injured and the family sues you the BSA will provide your legal defense and pay any fines determined by the court should you be found at fault. BUT ONLY...if you have followed the program, its rules and policies. So for instance you are on a campout and you allow the scouts to perform an initiation stunt on some new scouts and one gets injured. Let's say the family sues you for allowing the act to take place. The BSA will not protect you. You have violated a policy of the Youth Protection program. You will have to pay for your own defense and you face severe personal financial loss when you pay the court ordered fines. As an extra added attraction it is likely that for allowing the hazing to take place you and the other adults on the trip will have their BSA memberships permanently revoked. I hope this helps clarify things, BW

All I can say twocubdad is that if you read the opening the opening paragraph of the local tour permit it specifically exempts locally owned counil camps. BW

merlyn The search feature on the board does not seem to be working, once it is I will be happy to post examples of your lack of knowledge of the BSA . Until then.. I've stated before, I consider the BSA to be a dishonest organization that fraudulently uses public money to further their private discrimination. I totally understand your opinion and motive. BUT, You keep avoiding the question. What is your goal here. "They lied about the use of this money," that is a personal opinion and not a legal fact. The courts have not ruled on this and since the question seems to be over whether or not the BSA practices "illegal discrimination" and the Supreme Court has has already ruled that the membership practices are not illegal then it is highly likely that Mr. Goodwin's personal opinion will remain just that and not a legal triumph. But I leave that determination in the hands of the court. I for one am willing to wait for the court to decide if the BSA was given the grant inappropriately and fully expect the BSA to follow the court's decision no matter which way it goes. I fully expect Mr. Goodwin and you to continue your crusade if the court finds in favor of the BSA. Filing a law suit does not mean you are right and defending yourself in a law suit does not make you wrong. I would think by now you understood that both parties enter the court on even ground and it is the Court that determines the rest. Why not just share when a decision is made not just when someday shouts foul. And yes you presented this as 'look what horrible people you are' when in fact it is just an opinion with no verified evidence and no ruling. If you are so confident that the BSA is guilty then you should be willing to wait for the justice system to support you.

Good one acco40:) KS, It would not surprise me if we were in agreement, we usually are. I am confused though (OK everybody stop laughing). You said you felt one of the problems we have is that uniform are not mandatory. That we leaveme to think that you think they should be. I'm not sure that is the problem. I think the root of the evil is that many leaders due to personal bias over what they view as shortcomings in the uniform do not support the method. We don't need more rules or stricter rules, we need leaders who deliver the entire program. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

EagleDad, I understand what you are saying...but, returninbg to my question..what percentage of your new scouts complete first class in about the first year. No part of the BSA program measures success by the number of Eagle Scouts. But there is an advancement gaol of first Class in the first year. BE

What is your point Merlyn? You haven't proven that the BSA did anything wgong. The courts haven't determined that hte BSA did anything wrong. All you have is 'Hey look! This guy says the BSA lied!' So he is welcome to his opinion, but filing a suit doesn't mean he is right. It means he thinks the BSA is wroong and wants the court to make a determination. Your acting as if the a judgment was passed. That's the thing with law suits. Anybody can sue anybody over anything, that doesn't mean they are right. By the way when last we chatted we were waiting for you to answer a question. As a non-member of the BSA what do you hope to accomplish by posting here? You have shown you have little to no knowledge of our mission, aims and methods and you have shown an alarming lack of knowledge on the volunteer and professional structure of the organization. You post lawsuits as if they were court decisions. What is your goal? I'm not saying you don't have a right to, I'm just curious as to why you choose to. Bob White PS as far as Baldy, I would not be surprised if the courts say that the law says you cannot illegally discriminate and that since the Supreme court of US has determined that the BSA membership rules are legal, they will dismiss the case. Let's wait and see what happens.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Littlebillie, You raise some very good points about role models. Oh, by the way the Electoral College is not bound by the popular vote of their State. They are free to vote their conscience. The difference between a democracy and a republic is an important thing to know and a good civics lesson to explain the importance of the PLC and the responsibility of representing all the needs and characteristics of your Patrol members not just how the majority feel. There is a reason why in the pledge we do not say "and to the democracy for which we stand". To ignore it denies an important element of our legacy as a society. BW

kwc57, Another way to look at the problem is rather than have pants in more styles and cuts what we need to do is grow scouts that are all standard sizes. The problem is we deal with millions of kids in a wide variety of lengths and widths. For years we had problems buying pants for my son. Regular cut was too wide, slims were too slim, and thats in civilian clothes. The scout uniform with the elastic waist was one of the few things that actual fit. Yes there are some boys who shapes do not conform to the uniform cut but kids outside the program have the same problem. the diference is the kids outside scouting have thousands of styles and manufactureres to select from and Boy scouts do not. but it is not practical to have thousands of vendors of scouting materials. in addition the majority of what you buy at the clothing stores are imported, the BSA uniform is all American made, which limits our selection even more. I understand the frustrations that some have over some features of the uniform. I wish the patch pockets were pleated and more functional, but they are not, and no matter how many times I wish they were different they don't change. (Wish in one hand, spit in the other and see which fills up first) I know that if the pockets ever changed, no matter what was changed about them, there would be a percentage of members who did not like the change. This is a battle the BSA will never win. There are just too many members with too many differing opinions. The uniform is what it is, it has changed in the past and it will change in the future and at no point will everyone be even close to satisfied. Here is the challenge for anyone to take up. design a scouting uniform or uniforms that.... >is American made >fits every body shape and size >will be flexible to every indoor and outdoor activity in every weather condition >that doesn't imitate the military >that will last a scout or adult about 3 years > is durable but formal but casual enough > washes well and dries quickly > that has pockets that can hold anything and everything anybody wants to put in their pockets >that can be worn by any sex of any age > that can be purchased by anyone regardless of budget (free would be preferred) > and you must guarantee that everyone will like it. The line forms on the right. Bob White

"Exclusion from meetings and activities, with a national compulsory uniform wear policy, seems to me to be the best and maybe the only way to enforce it, if you choose to. You could do other things, too, such as making full uniform a joining requirement, or advancement requirement." As I see it, the character growth does not come from wearing the uniform because you have to, but from wearing the uniform because you choose to. BE

Hi OGE I appreciate that you and many others would have been positve participants. Much of what has been written on this thread appeared in other peoples comments in the discussion. The internet bulletin board had a public and private side. I don't know how it was publicized but it had a number of adult and youth participants. The private side was by invitation and it had about 4 dozen scouters or more who are heavily involved in training at national., council and district levels. Before anyone screams that this was clandestine, it was not. The realistic fact is there are over a million scouters and everyone has an opinion. It is not practical to try to filter all that information without trimming it down to a workable size. Bob White

Thanks acco40(This message has been edited by Bob White)