Bob White

Hi twocubdad, There are two reasons why we avoid putting ourselves into a leadership role in the unit. First is that it is not our unit and as such we have no right or authority to make decisions. It is the charter organizations responsibility to select an approve the unit leaders not the district's to insert people into them. The other reason is best exemplified in the old adage "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime." If as a commisioner(Mentor)you determine the unit does not have enough leadership then the appropriate thing to do is teach them how to recuit, because that is the real problem. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As you know acco40 being a UC for a unit in trouble takes a lot of time. I'm amazed that as a SM you would have time to help a troubled unit. One of the problems in commissioning today is that most commissioners only want their unit or healthy units and neither situation is helpful to the units that really need them. I agree that a large part of commissioning should be mentoring, but because of the current structure and attitude of many unit leaders that is not happening. BW

The policy says tobacco products. NJScouter, It would be unfortunate if a leader would choose to ignore the obvious meaning and intention of the policy in order to engage in such activities in front of the scouts. Words count, so does integrity. A leader with integrity would have no trouble understand and following the words. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

NJscouter well aren't you the selfrighteous one, I can't tell you what the current Cub Scout Leader Handbook says because at this moment I don't have one, it's on loan to one of my trainers. So get off your high horse. Unlike you I am unwilling to refer to the contents of a manual which you have already admitted is out of date. So perhaps another poster who has a current book would be willing to post the section that refers to this topic and we can all see what it says. As far as the contents of the Guide to Safe Scouting, Why are you so hung up on what you feel is ambiguous if you understand the intent and purpose of the policy? Why do you not just accept in in the terms you agree are in the best interests of the scouts? Bob White

Hi Bob 58, I'm not saying I have all the answers on this, I just know that the situation needs major work. As I would envision it a new unit would be assigned a mentor for 6 months. They would work closely with the other functions of the District to walk the new unit or new SM or CM through the program. Not making the decisions but coaching him/her on how to use the methods and resources of the program to make the right decisions. They would be there not to say "here is what I would do" but to say "here is a resource that provides a method for you to do that successfully" and "what would be a way to do that so that it relected a scouting ideal". The Mentor would personally invite the leaders to attend training or arrange for training to come to the leaders. The would be available for meetigs to shadow the new leader and give praise or counseling as needed. They would be available through e-mail or phone as questions arise. After the first 6-months the contacts could be as needed or at events like Roundtables. By having a Membership Mentor, units who were needing advice or knowledge of resources for that particular area could be sent to someone with those specific strengths. I know alot of scouters that are great at earning money and setting up budgets that have no idea how to run an advancement program. By having some mentors specialize in specific areas we could utilize the best aspect of each persons skills. I could see how a mentoring team of 12 could do more good than 36 Unit Commissioners. Some people believe you need commissioners in order to evaluate unit health. I humbly disagree. There is a detailed monthly report available to District Commissioners that gives all the info you need to see if a unit is in trouble. It has adult and youth membership numbers, boys life registartion, training info, quality unit info, add Roundtable attendance and advancement info to the and you get a good picture of the unit. What it doesn't tell you is who the culprit or culprits are when there is a problem. That would require the appropriate Mentor to discover, IF the unit agreed to accept the help. I don't want to force our way into anyones door. The unit leaders and Charter Organizations need to know that the use of the Mentor program is a choice THEY make. if they want the support we are there, and if they don't want the support, that too is a choice. My Parents taught me that no one every started smoking by accident. Everything we do is a choice. We choose to have healthy habits or we choose to have unhealthy habits. We choose to follow the program or we choose not to. Each has it's punishment or reward. Mentors would be available to those who want a good program for their kids, but it would be their choice to accept or reject. Either way we would be around to make sure the scouts are taken care of. A recent business contact of mine shared how he was starting his Eagle project when his troop folded. He never got his Eagle. His family had no idea where to turn. That should never have happened. It did because his leaders did't care and his district was not prepared for the collapse. But I guarantee you they knew it was coming. Mentors would be there to redirect families to healthy units when a collapse occured. Just my thoughts, Bob White PS. Eagle Dad, I have an entirely different view of the Webelos to Scout transition problem. If you would start a separate thread I would be glad to engage you on it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You guys want to spend time dancing with the words go ahead. If you believe that Tobacco, alchol and controlled substances should be used in view of scouts at a scouting activity then you are dangerous to the welfare of the scouts, and should have your memberships removed if you allow such behaviour to be practiced in the units you serve. That is the intention of the rule, play semantics with the phrasing to your hearts delight, just know the penalty for breaking the rule. Bob White

This one was in scouting magazine late 2001 or early 2002 and our council ran it our council newsletter. There ia also a manual for the Activities committee (I don't have the title in front of me) and it will be in there as well. This is a District/Council administration rule that has to be followed in events planned by the District/Council. It does not effect individualunit activities or operstions. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree with your methods shemgren, but it is impossible that every District can find one of you for every three units they serve. What happens more often then not is that one ore two scouters end up carrying all the unit commission real workload. I'd like to see us knock down a crumbling structure and rebuild. BW

I'm with you on this Twocubdad. Personally, I have never met anyone who did not understand what this policy is. So if anyone who chooses to pick on the wording agrees with the intent, why can't they just support the behaviour rather than dance with the wording? It is a mystery to me. BW

First let me state right off the bat that these are my own opinions and observations. Most have been shared with people at the national office including the director of the Boy Scout Division (who by the way has little to do with Commissioning). That is a big part of the problem there is no one person who is really responsible for commisioner service. Commisioning is the red headed strep chid of scouting. peices aree handled by different divisions with no one really at the helm. It has been this way for some time and has gotten even worse recently with reoganizations and layoffs. A bit of history. Area Commissioners were the forerunners of professional scouters. they were community volunteers who represented the Rules and regs of the BSA in local communities. They helped encourage charter organizatioons to organize troops and were basically the official scouting presence in a comminity. If you look at the commissioners badge of office you will see the wreath of service. Accept for the volunteers of commissioner service only proffessional wear that insignia. The reason is that commissioners, like professionals carry a responsibility to represent the policies of the BSA. In that lies another problem. Commissioners responsibilities have evolved to the point where a District Commissioner's job is the same as a District Executives job but without pay. Here is the Commissioning structure (and by the way these are all volunteers). There is 1 Council Commissioner who sits on the Council KEY 3 (the Council President (volunteer) and the Scout Executive (Professional) are the other two members. The Council Commissioner might have Asst. Council Commissioners to oversee specific projects such as an Asst. Council Commissioner for Roundtables, or Boy Scout, cub Scouts Venturing, etc. They coordinate the actions of the District Commissioners. There is 1 District Commissioner in each District. They in-turn might have Asst. District Commissioners (ADCs) to help oversee different areas of commissioning in the district. Then you have Roundtable Commissioners, (1 for each program) who each have Roundtable Staff Commissioners. Then you have Unit Commissioners. National wants each District to have 1 UC for every 3 uinits. I have yet to meet any District Commisions who actually have that ratio in active commissioners. In a district the size where I live we should have 34 Unit Commissioners on top of the 2 Roundtable Commissioners, plus the District Commissioner. Thats 37 commissioners NOT COUNTING the ADCs and Rountable staff. That's alot of folks for one branch of district service. So where do they come from? That is the next problem You see when Commissioner Sevice was formed they were neighborhood commissioners. Districts might have only had a couple dozen units. Today, with council and district consolidations, districts are huge and have become bohemoths to administrate. So units aren't right around the corner, Roundtable attendance in many councils suffer not just from program content but from time efficiency. We have leaders who spend 2 hours on the road for a 90 minute meeting. Back to the UC problem. Where do we get all these commissioners from. Some come from the unit they are commissioning BIG MISTAKE, you will never get an objective health report from a commissioner talking about their own unit. I can tell you that when a UC tells you his own unit is "doing just fine" start looking to rebuild because they are about to collapse. Some come from unit former leaders. Hey, there is a reason why they are FORMER. Either they weren't good at it or they burned out. Neither is going to make a very good UC. We need UC's to be cheerful communicators. They should be the human resource library of scouting. They need to understand how to spot unhealthy methods within a unit's program early and direct leaders to information source to get them back on track. It's a bog important job. So what goes wrong? Units in good shape don't need commissioners, and unit in trouble won't listen to a commissioner. Some leaders even see the UC as a District spy sent to tattle on them. Over the years the role of the Unit Commissioner has soured in the mind of many leaders. MY opinions.... Leave the District Commissioner in place as a member of the District Key 3, his/her role is to make sure that everything is done insure a quality scouting program is available to all eligible youth by being the scouting resource person for the other committees. Take Roundtables out of commissioning and put them under the training committee where they belong. Do away with Unit Commissioners and create Scouting Mentors. These Mentors would each specialize in different areas of expertise such as recruitment, fundraising, unit committee operation, new leader orientation, new unit start-ups. When a new unit started they would get a mentor for the first 6 months. If a unit had recruitment problems they could ask for a Mentor to give them some guidance. The district KEY 3 could supervise the activities of the Mentors. If a unit was in trouble we would contact the charter organization and offer our help to get then back in the scouting track. If help was refused we would work in the background to have a placement plan in effect for the scouts when the unit imploded. We waste good people trying to change bad leaders that don't want to change. I will expend any amount of time needed to help a leader who is having trouble that's wants to change. But if you are just bad at what you do and your charter organization doesn't mind, we could do more for the scout by being ready to pick him up when he gets dropped than by butting heads with a leader that does not want to honor his/her committment to follow the program. I have talked with several Dozen District Commissioners, Roundtable Commissioners and professional scouters across the country and they all agree that commissioninng is broken and needs an overhaul. BW

hi Eagledad, The problems are too numerous to go into here it is way off the topic and should have its own thread. So give me a few minutes and I'll originate one. BW

This has come up a few times on this board. Every Counci's Scout Executive should have a copy of the BSA Rules and Regulations manual. i'm sure they would be glad to let you come tke a look at it and copy whatever section you need info from. As I have related before any information that is useful to units has been reprinteed in other unit resources. The bulk of the Rules and regs has to do with Council and District administration, how they are to be structured, how to nominate and elect Council and District committee mambers committee responsibilities etc. Advancement rules, safety rules, unit committee structure and responsibilitites, membership guidelines are all reprinted in unit resources. Is there a particular question you had in mind? Perhaps the posters here could direct you to a resource you might already have to get your answer. Bob White

So Evmori, If you think it is a good rule but you feel the language can be interpreted in different ways WHY do you not interpret it in the most positive way (which you say you support) that has the greatest benefit to the youth. Why do you choose to dance with words and give less experienced leaders the wrong impression of your position? Why do you choose to poison the well? This is not about the wording of the policy, this is about your personal choice in insert controversy, rather than protect the scouts through supporting what you know is the intent of the rule. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I think there is a huge misunderstanding of the camping policy that took effect at the beginning of 2002. There are various versions of what people think it is and what it applies to. Essentially, National has said that EXCEPT for individual troop activities where a troop has inveitd a Webelos Den to participate as a potential recruitment tool, Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are to have separate campsite areas and that Council, District and National activities (where both programs are present) must have separate activity elements that are program appropriate for the two different groups. To put a large number of Cub Scouts amid a large number of boy scouts has proven to be a safety hazard mostly for the younger scouts. To have both program participating in the same event usually means the the event has to be scaled back to accomodate the Cubs, thereby lessening the quality and challenge of the event to the Boy Scout. In some cases the level of program is kept at the Boy Scout Level and the Cub is either unable to compete, or risks injury due to his abilities at that age. So the rule makes good sense. If you have both groups present then have two activity courses, one for Cubs and one for Boy Scouts. If they are camping then have two campsite areas. If a troop wants to bring a bunch of Webelos with them on a Troop outing they are more than welcome to. I hope you can see the purpose and the logic in this, Bob White

One last bit of info scoutldr that you requested in your original post. The scout executive answers to two bodies. The Council executive board made of local volunteers and the Regional Director of the BSA, another BSA professional. BW

so evmori, Are you saying that prohibiting the use of alcohol, tobacco and controlled substances in front of scouts on a scouting activity is a good rule or a bad rule? BW

Like most professions as you move up the hierarchy you can in pay, the scouting profession is no exception. No matter what your title at the district level the work that needs to be done remains the same but with time and experience you should get better at it. That improved skill and tenure gains you higher job titles. BW

The specific responsibilities vary in each council. In general it is the professional's responsibility to organize, and develop volunteer committees at the council and district level to support the scouting efforts of Charter Organizations and their unit volunteers in order to bring all eligible youth a quality scouting experience. The specific areas the professional staffs are evaluated on are financial growth, adult volunteer recruitment for district and council operations, and youth membership recuitment along with unit growth. The council office is also responsible for all record keeping of membership and advancement and training. The District and council volunteers are responsible for unit support including training, activities, membership growth, fundraising, advancement, public relations and promotion, property management and deveolpment, communications, commissioner service, and more. Your local district professional is a good place to start with questions because they are responsible for knowing the various resources available to you through the district and council. often they will not be the ones to help you with your spefic situation but they will be able to direct you to the person or persons who can help.

There is no denying that boy lead has its own set of problems when you do not follow the program. For some boy lead means abdicating the aadult responsibilities and that is not the scouting program. Probably the simpliest way to describe it is train the scouts how to do and decide, then never do anything that a boy can do or decide on his own. Now there are many nuances that allow this learning process to take place AND THAT is what the methods of scouting are all about. It can be done by anyone and yet is not used by so many. The real scouting program is quite elegant in its execution since it uses the social and emotional characteristics of boys at various ages as the structure for its activities and methods. Because of that, following the scouting methods is natural to the youth. The hitch is since it is based on how a youth is built it is unnatural to the adult leader. So the result is that many leaders try to change the program to meet the adult needs and characteristics and try to get the boy to fit the wrong mold. Then others try to change themselves to fit the youth's characteristics and that is not the correct method either. The scouters who are the most effective and reflective of the scouting movement accept that youth are different and need time to grow to adult character traits, so they have the scouts operate the activities at the scouts own levels. Then in the background, they interact with the scouts through individual and group counseling and leadership training with as adult role models. The third way requires the adult to accept the scouts characteristics and needs while encouraging them toward the principles of character and purpose modeled in the scout Oath and Law. BW

If you have not checked the news yet, the space shuttle and all aboard have been lost on re-entry. The cause of the massive explosion is not unknown at this time. Debris is falling on the Texas region. Our thanks to the brave men and women of the space program and we give our prayers to the families of those who died. Proud of what we as a race can accomplish and sad for the price we pay, as a nation, and personally by those who take the risks.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bob58, Major problems to your points are that In most of the BSA Unit Commissioning is broken. It has been broken for decades, (Many at the National level know it they just don't know how to fix it) but thats another thread. In addition the role of the District and Council committees do not allow them to go in and fix units that operate outside the spirit and mission of scouting, we can only interceed when policies are violated. Until then we can teach proper methods to those who attend training and Roundtables, we can counsel through the few active commissioners there are. We can create circumstances and events where they can see units that are scouting correctly. But by and large we must rely on the character and honor of the volunteers that the Charter Organizations select to be the leaders to follow the actual program that is in the handbooks and not create their own personal version of the program. The scouting method is hard work. It is hard to teach scouts how to plan menus, shop, plan gear, make and agenda as to when to cook and who does what. It is easy for the adults to plan a meal shop, collsct the money an tell the scouts who will help the adults cook for the whole troop. We all see these kinds of troops at one event or another. But which way develops the skills and character of the scouts. The problem is once a bunch of adults develop the easy way, habits get formed. So that even when the leadership changes as new people join they follow the easy way beacause that's how they do it in this troop and hey, it's so easy. Merit Badge factories are easy. You don't have to consider the individual interests of the boy, you don't have to mess with kids coming up all the time asking for diffent books or different blue cards. You know every month which merit badge will be earned so ordering awards is a breeze.And if you need to know if you are delivering the scouting promise you don't need to take time to look into the heart of the scout, all you need to do is look at the eagle tote board to know if YOU are a success. The Eagle award was designed as a personal challege for a scout to see the mountain top and choose his own trail to the top. It was not designed for him to follow bread crumbs up a path that the adults cleared for him themselves. Sure either way the view is the same, but the strength gained by the climb is different. We are supposed to be teachers and counselors not tour guides. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ranks would not be the correct term. they are job titles. A Scout Executive oversees a council. The Field Director works for the Scout Executive and oversees the District Executives. There are other Council administrative positions as well that may exist depending on the size and financial strength of the council. Within adistrict administartion, again depending on the size of the district and the finances of the council you could have a District Director that overseea Senior District executives that work with district Executives. All of whom would answewr to the Field Director or (depending on the size of the council)to the Assistant Scout Executive, or the Scout Executive themselves. Everything depends on the size, needs and finances of the individual council. There are maximum limits as to the number of professionals a council can have depending on the conditions I described. It is important to know that how many professional are working in your council was determined by the volunteer executive committee in your council not the scouting profession. Bob White

TwoCubDad, You might be interested in knowing that except for the addition of the New Scout Patrol Method some 10 to 15 years ago (not positive on the date) the boy leader emphasis known as the Patrol Method has existed virtually unchanged since BP created it 92 years ago. I was a scout in the 60s in a boy lead troop. We had monthly Patrol Leader Council meetings, bi-monthly patrol meetings, boy lead troop meetings, patrol hikes and campouts, when the troop camped each patrol had their own separate campsite and all the adults camped in their own site. Our patrol and others in the troop had remained intact for over 25 years continious years. So there is nothing unique about it and I can guarantee you it existed in the 70s when you were a scout because I was a unit leader at the time and we used it then. Your experience just proves that for as long as there has been a patrol method there have been troop leaders that did not use it. As far as why some of us dislike the use of merit badge courses as a troop meetings..its because the scouting program that we agreed to learn and follow says that it is not what troop meetings are for and not how merit badges are supposed to be earned. See the section on group instruction of Merit Badges pages 27,28 of the Advancement Committee policies and procedures manual#33088D. There are two divergent philosophies at work and only one follows the methods and mission of scouting. You can drive scouts to Eagle assuming that with advancement will come character growth. Units that do this usually focus on only two methods of the Boy Scout program, Advancement and Uniform. Or you can focus on character growth as a stimulus encourage scouts to learn the skills that will create advancement. Leaders that follow this track tend to use a balance of all the methods of Boy Scouting; Advancement, uniform, the outdoors, the patrol method, adult association, scouting ideals,personal growth, and leader development. So it's important to understand that the people who are dissing the use of troop meeting as merit badge factories are actually following the program as it is supposed to be. This is a great topic and needs to be aired out so that new leaders can understand the importance of going to training and following the BSA program rather than create a train ride to Eagle. I would our program and efforts be measured by a First Class scout who had principles based on the Oath and Law, than I would by an Eagle who who had the badges but not the values of the scouting program to guide his decisions in life. Bob White

Actually what the current Guide to Safe Scouting, section IV, says is "The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members." "Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants." Now keep in mind that Bold type means it is unalterable policy and that violation of policy can lead to permanent revocation of your adult membership and exposure to financial loss from civil lawsuits. There has been some discussion on this board and others as to whether "may not" means shouldn't or can't. In talking to the powers that be at national due to a local situation I can tell you what I was told. The BSA has no power to punish adults who are not registered members of the BSA , but if a leader uses drugs, alcohol, tobacco or misuses controlled substance in front of scouts at a youth activity they can expect to get a warning to stop and on the next offense have their membership revoked. An adult member that allows other adults to use the above named products in front of scouts at a scout activity will be warned and then on the next offense have their membership revoked. I think that makes the rule clear for everyone who might want to dance with semantics in order to these habits to youth. Bob White

Scouting's birthday is February 8th each year. Scout week always runs on the calendar week Sunday to Saturday of the week containing the 8th. Most religions celebrate either Sunday or Saturday as their Holy Day of the week. In some religions the traditional week runs Friday evening to Saturday evening in which case Saturday is called the Sabbath. So scout week always has two scout worship days the Sunday at the beginning and the Saturday at the end. BW