Bob White

Eagle 92 is looking at some OLD progress cards. Rather than use council sites use the BSA national Web site's filestore data base. From the current Venturing Leader award. Progress card (Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award.) From the current Varsity Leader Training Award Progress Card (Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award.) The pins work better on the ribbons than the knots. They always have. I haven't tried using them on the knots in several years. One reason is they don't stay on well and two. they don't all fit on the knot. For instance I have 3 devices for the Scouters Key award (Scoutmaster, District Committee, Commissioner), and 4 devices for the Scouter's training award (Scouter, district committee, Commissioner, and Sea Scout award) and there just isn't room on the knots. So now the just sit in a box inside another box somewhere in the basement.

The big picture is that the BSA the entire movement as one continual program. It is all scouting with, Boy Scouts adresses next growth phase for cubs, Venturing adresses the next growth phase for Boy Scouts. Its all one continuous program. Because of that a Boys scout can continue untill 18 to earn the Eagle once he has completed the Basics in Boys Scouts. A Youth who joins Venturing can now earn all the recognitions and ranks in Venturing including Sea Scout ranks and recognitions, just as Sea Scouts can earn all the awards and recognitions in Venturing. One big preogram. As far as shorting the girls thats silly. As an example in our ship we have some boys who are stil working on Boy Scout advancement and we have some girls working on their Girl Scout Gold. we support their needs equally and it requires no flexing of the program at all. We wil do special Bridge of Honos for the girls just as we do for the boys who make Eagle.

"The Committee Chair is selected by the Institutional Head and/or the Charter Organization Representative." Troop Committee Guide Page 7 The charter organization Representative...Bullet #3 "Secures a troop Committee Chairperson and encourages training" "The Committee Chair selects the committee members... [and] assigns committee positions Troop Committee Guide page 14 The Committee Chair. "You can have a full committee with a reasonable amount of recruiting effort. The first five positions are essential fill them first." and Bullet 1 "Organize the committee to see that all functions are delegated, coordinate and completed." The Committee members serve at the behest of the Committee Chair and [iH]. Let's look at what the current Commissioner Fieldbook says. In Chapter 9 How to Remove a Volunteer under the sub heading "WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY" "Who has the authority to remove a volunteer? A good rule of thumb is this; The person or group with the authority to appoint a volunteer has the authority to remove and replace that volunteer." So who appoints and approves committee members??? The CR and the CC. You can see that on every adult application. There are no elections Everything in every resource of the BSA regarding committee members ay thay76are selected and approved by the CC and CR. Offer the forum any quote from any BSA resource or training syllabus saying that ANY are elected. That is the responsibility of the Committee Chair to make that decision, since it is his or her team to lead. Just as the president selects his own Cabinet , the Committee Chair selects their own committee. Your come back was to compare a business world board chairman not selecting his board. But I never used that model. I used the more appropriate model of the president and his cabinet. The President selects his committee the committee chair selects and approves his or hers. Dont believe it? Look at the adult application. Who approves all adults in the unit? I do not see how you can possibly refute that. the Charter organization which is represented by the IH, CR, and CC You already know that the CR represents the charter organization , and I have already given you the reference where the CR selects and approves the Committee chair. Well on page 8 of the troop Committee Guide it says As the troop committee works on behalf of the charter organization And who heads this group that works on behalf of the CO that is chosen by the CR and approved by the Institution head? Thats right the Committee chair. Is he or she a representative of the needs and wants of the charter organization? Yep! The CC. Does the Committee have that authority to change others positions? NO Your argument is that only the IH and CR can do that. Read the adult application. It takes the Committee Chair and either the CR or IH, not both. The only person that requires the signature of the CR and IH is the committee chair. But who are the only two members of the committee that can approve the membership? The CC and CR. You are correct there is only ONE person on the committee who can approve adult memberships, the Committee chair, and there are two people outside the committee who can approve committee members the IH and the CR. There is NO ONE ELSE in the unit with the authority to do that. "And on page 7 of the troop Committee Guide Book it says that the CR SELECTS the Committee Chair. Do you know of ANY BSA training or resource that contradicts that?" UYpou said "Actually I think it says "secures", eh? " Yes, it says secures and it does not give any responsibility regarding the chair to any other individual or group. Look again at the adult application. Who can approve the membership and selection of the Committee Chair? ONLY the IH and the CR. I never said the committee could not make suggestions but they have NO AUTHORITY in the matter.

The Scoutparents initiative officially rolls out in September. Patience is a virtue.

Mike As long as you are sure that either your council pays for accident insurance for the units or that your unit has purchased accident insurance through the council then your guests will have accident insurance. Beavah...oh my beavah...It is silly to suggest that a person needs a law degree to understand insurance. I would bet that every single person on this forum has insurance even if they are not a lawyer. What kind of personal insurance each member carries is totally irrelevant to what the BSA liability protection is and what it isn't and the same for the BSA accident insurance. It will affect the payment but it does not effect what the policies are. In this case the BSA says that their liability protection is for REGISTERED adults and COS only. And that if the loss is caused during the commission of a crime or while willfully violaatig a BSA safety policy you might lose that protection. A little common sense scenario. A person we will call Beav who has a liability policy breaks into another persons home causing property damage. The Homeowners insurance company subrogates the Beav's insurance company for the loss. Do you believe that Beav's insurance company is going to pay? Not if he has the same liability policy that I have from the worlds largest insurance company. It specifically states that it will not cover losses accrued during the commission of a crime. So does the BSA's. "generally speakin' a finding of negligence and violatin' some rule, guideline, law, or regulation go hand in hand, eh?" So you are suggesting that insurance would be useless because most accidents happen while breaking the law??? That's silly.

Here is one problem that persists Beavah. The reason that you won't find some of the things you attribute to me as saying is because I didn't say it. You have a habit of taking what I say and 'tossin' a liitle Beavah twist' on it and then attributing it to me. Not a fair way to discuss the topic. At no time did I say the committee could not recommend people for adult membership. But who are the only two members of the committtee that can approve the membership? The CC and CR. The rest of the committee can certainly help identify poeople. But only the CC and CR can approve them and place them in a position. Lynns question unless she has a new one now was abloiut electing the CC, And on page 7 og the troop Committee Guide Book it says that the CR SELECTS the Committee Chair. Do you know of ANY BSA training or resource that contradicts that? I didn't think so. So who does the BSA says assigns committee responsibilities???? page 14...The Committee Chairperson Under the CR on page 7 it says he or she "Maintains a close relationship with the committee chair and Scoutmaster". Under the The Chairpersons responsibility it says that he or she "Maintains a close relationship with the CR and Scoutmaster". In The Scoutmaster/assistant Scpoutmaster training it tells of the need for the Scoutmaster, committee chair and CRE to work cloely together. So you see that is not something I invented. You asked "Can a CO choose to structure and run a committee as you suggest? It is not what I suggest it is what the BSA recommends and supports through its training and resources. Its not a matter of "can a unit do" it is a matter of "this is how the unit should do it" in order to provide the best possible scouting program. As I have asked several times in the past please stop rephrasing what I post, you give a very twisted impression of things.

What you describe would be serving actively for 6 months within a period of 18 months. That is not what the requirements says. Take for instance the requirement for the Scoutermaster's Key. "Complete at least 3 years of registered tenure as a Scoutmaster within a 5-year period. this would allow a person to be a scoutmaster for a year take a year off, be scoutmaster again, take a year off and be scoutmaster again. 3 years in a 5 year period. But the Eagle requiremenst says to serve in one or more offices for a 6-month period, not for 6-months within a (fill in the blank)_____-month period. This is not a secret code, there is nothing confusing, it is a period of time that is 6 moths from beginning to end.

I will invite Mike to address his questions to the risk management department at the BSA headquarters. Risk management handles among other items the BSA liability protaection program. The Health and Safety department would handle the accident insurance questions. You can e-mail either of them at this link. http://www.scouting.org/Applications/hsquestions.aspx It is an uunfortunate way to discuss a topic when you make a statement and then avaoid giving any evidence to support it. "There are all kinds of reasons for why what you propose would be completely ridiculous in ways that would make BSA insurance of no benefit whatsoever to units or COs, but I'll leave those as an exercise for the reader." First, I did not propose it I shared what we were told by the heads of the Health and Seafty and the Risk Management departments in paerson during a training conference at Philmont. And you knowledge come from where Beavah? Secondly, you suggested the exercise, why don't you start us off by suggesting a scenario where the indidual committing a crime could not have their liabilty protection withdrawn. While I agree it is not worth worrying about ist is worth knowing. For instance not every council supplies the accident insurance to units at no cost, although it is true of the vast majority of councils. In some councils however the unit still needs to purchase accident insurance. If they choose not to then they have no accident insurance. the BSA does not provide it, it must be purchased by the council or by the unit from an outside vendor. You write with great enthusiasm and a cute accent but you are incorrect in your opinion.

Sorry Beavah but your opinion doee not match the facts shared by the head of BSA Risk Managenment at his PTC presentation a few weeks ago. Liability protection is only given to registered adult volunteers in the BSA and COs. Everyone on a BSA unit activity has accident insurance providing it was either provided by the council to the unit or purchased through the council. In almost every case the accident insurance is secondary and not primary as you suggested. Also, the liability protection can be abandoned if the Scouter is in the commission of ANY crime during the incident. It does not have to be related to harming a child. It is also jeopardized if you are taking part in an activity that has been prohibited by the BSA . Your opionion may differ, but those are the policies of the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Your edition will do jsut fine ScoutNut. read what you posted again... Where does it say a period of 6 months??? Right where you copied your post from!The Boy Scout Handbook. REQUIREMENT 4. While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility. List only those positions served after Life board of review date."

I do not believe Beavah that I have posted anywhewre that the responsibility of the committee was not to work together to help the unit succeed. Have I? What was being discussed waswho had authority over the selection and approval of the members and the Committee chair, and the fact that it did not rest with the committee. Nor does the selection and approval of the CR. The Committees role is not to run the scouting program for the IH but to support the program needs of the unit. The BSA is not structured for the Committee to operate by majority rule. It is designed to have committee members carry out the assignments from the Chair. There are three cooks at the adult level to a scout unit's program recipe; the CR, the CC, and the unit's program leader. What would probably help lynn07 (and others with committee problems) the most is not a variety of ways committes are run but in how they are meant to be structured so that they operate the way they are supposed to. So should they have elections? NO Does the Committee have that authority to change others positions? NO Who does? The IH, CR and CC. That is the scouting structure, not by my opinion, but by the training and resources of the BSA and Beavah I invite you to show any BSA resource that says otherwise.

I am sure that if you asked enough people, even professionals, that eventually you could find someone to be as wrong as you need them or want them to be. That does not make you right. There is nothing unclear in the statements that the BSA has made regarding tenure for these recognitions. Finding someone else to agree with you will not make the statements on the requirements incorrect. it will just make the two of you wrong together.

Since the activity took place at the crew level the Crew President or Advisor would be the most likely to sign it. In the Ship I serve the Skipper or select Mates sign the Boy Scout advancement requirements that Scout completes during ship activities. Remember that the Scout must be 1st Class before doing this, So most the requirements from Star, Life, and eagle are merit badges related and ared signed by an approved and registered counselor and not by the Troop, Crew, or Ship. The balance certifies there leadership role, their membership activity, and their personal growth and either unit can sign those off. Since the Eagle project approved by the District, and is not a unit activity, it does not matter which unit the scout has the approval done through.

So in basically you are saying they changed the uniform about 4 years ago when the current handbook came out? Sorry I had no idea it was "one of those exagerations". I thought you meant that everything had changed. I see now that they made some changes in the uniform. Is this the first time the uniforms changed in Sea Scouting over the last 90 plus years, or had they changed before? Based on a display on unforms I saw once it appears it has changed a few times, not unlike other BSA uniforms...is that correct?

What is ambiguous about the following quotes from the Tenure section on these training awards? From the Commissioners Arrowhead and Commissioners Key Awards Tenure for one award cannot be used for other training awards. From the Cub Scouters Award (Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award.) From the Venturing Leaders Award (Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award.) Sure there are some training chairs that you will be able to convince to do things wrong, and obviously there are scout volunteers willing to let them in order to get a knot for their uniofrm, but is that really how you want to earn these recognitions. I would hope that most scouting volunteers have more personal integrity than that.

In my conversations with members of the National Advancement committee and with the information in the Boy Scout Handbook, this is not the case. The requirement clearly states "serve actively" not "hold an office". The Scout is expected to particpate in the responsibilities of the office. Where units get in trouble is when they fail to train scouts in those responsibilities or do not help the scouts set measuable goals. But if the scout accepts a role and then does not particpate in that role to activiely serve then the requirement is not met. What the BSA does not allow is for the troop to set attendance requirements. The purpose of the requirement is to develop leadership not to force attendance.

Hi GNX If you notice on the Cub tracking card it says that the dates of service cannot be used for "ANY other key or award award", not just ones in the same unit or program...ANY other. If you look at the Commissioner awards you will see the same quote that the dates used cannot be used for ANY other Key or award. You will find the same quote on the Venturing Leader award. The end result is that the dates of service on the training awards CANNOT Be shared with any other keys or awards regardless of what program they are in when it has this quote in the Teure section. You are correct that the restriction does not appear on every award. I said that in two of my posts..."It is on nearly every training award". On the Scoutermaster's Key it says... "Complete at least 3 years of registered tenure as a Scoutmaster within a 5-year period (can include the tenure used to earn the Scouters Award). But it does not allow the years spent earning other keays or awards to be applied, only the dates used for the Scouter's Award.

I do not believe you are correct about that Pete. The requirement says it has to be within "a six month period". It can be in different positions, such as a scout who earns his Life as a Patrol Leader and then a month later gets elected to SPL. Then in 5 more months he would have completed the requirement. Or a scout who has been a life for a year and then gets elected to patrol leader, serves for 4 months and gets elected to SPL. After 2 months as SPL he could complete the requirement. But the requirement specifically states that it must be done "during a 6 month period".

Actually Uncas your nominations would have, or should have, gone through either the District or Council Advancement committee or Training committee depending on the award. For instance; training awards go through the District Training Committe, the District Award of Merit through the District Advancement Committee, and the Silver Beacer through the Council Advancement Committee. District or Council Commissioners would only be involved for the various commissioner awards, other than that they are pretty insulated from the awards process.

You are free to add whatever questions you would like, but do not assume that your questions will have their answers in the same three resources I used for my questions. Since this is an insurance question it would not be covered in the Boy Scout Handbook, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, or the Unit Money Earning Application which I used for my questions. This is a risk management question. My source on this comes from my training experiences at Philmont Training Center working with members of the BSA Risk Management staff and other BSA supplemental training courses I have been involved in over the years. The place for you to start would be with your local council office. They will have a person there trained in the BSA Insurance coverages and know how the accident insurance is being handled in your council. Or you can e-mail the BSA Risk Management office and ask them questions directly.

Under TENURE on nearly every current training award pocket score score card it says..."(Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award.)"

There is nothing requiring the scouts to advance in one program or the other. A scout who is dusal registered can use the activities of each program toward his advancement. The key word is "his". it is the Scouts advancement not the troop, crew, or ships advancement. The way the advancement program is currently set-up a scout can advance in Boy Scout Ranks as a Sea Scout, But cannot advance in his Sea Scout Ranks through a Troop. He can however use his skills activity in a troop toward his Sea Scout Ranks. Here is what I mean. A dual registered scout in a troop and crew can use his leadership office in the crew toward his Boy Scout Rank advancement as a Venturer or as a Boy Scout/Venturer dual membership. A s a dual membership he can go before a Troop board of review and use his Venturing leadership toward his rank. Or he can go before a board at the Crew level and use his time as an SPL in the troop for his Boy Scout Rank. Nothing requires that he do all the advancement through one program or another. That's why a higher level of communication is need between the advisor and the SM in these cases.

First, if a scout asks you how do adults advance you can explain to them that they don't. There are various recognitions and awards that Scouters can either earn or be selected to recieve, but there is not advancement program. A trained scoutmaster or assistant scoutmaster is considered to have the skills of a First Class Scout, but there is no adult advancement program. As for tenure, NO. For most recocognitions that require tenure such as the various training awards you are prohinited from using the same period of time for tenure that is being applied toward another training award. So if a person is an assistant scoutmaster and a den leader they can apply their tenure to one award or the other but not both. Once the tenure has been completed in one position then time can begin being accumulated for the other. If you feel tha there are individuals worthy of special awrds such as Silver Beaver, District Award of Merit, and others then by all means nominate them. Hope this helps, BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It sounds as if the problem isn't that a Venturing program is being started within the CO but that it is being started badly. It also sounds like the adults invoplved in starting the crew do not play well together with the adults in the troop. What is need here is some communication and some gropundrules. There is nothing wrong with a CO using more than one of the Scouting programs, but they should be set up as mutually beneficial not as prgram competitors. I ahve a suspicion that the adults trying to start the Crew do not feel that the older scouts in the troop are satisified with the program that is currently offered through the troop and are looking to be able to offer them a higher activity level. If this is true then a little communication and some alteration of the Troop program might be enough to improve the situation and the neeed for the crew would go away. As for the advancement there are no ranks in Venturing in a Crew program which is why advancement is not a Method in that program. But a Scout who is First Class at the time he enters Venturing maty continue his advancement to Eagle as a dual registered scout OR only registered in Venturing, If dual registered the Crew Advisor and the SCoutmaster need to be in communication so to avaid personal conflicts that could affect the scouts efforts in a negative way. What is important is what the scout learns and not who gets the credit for signing the advancement. Remember that when a scout advances (no matter what the rank) it is not to the unit's credit that he did so, it is to the youths credit. The advancement belongs to thm and not to anyone else.

Depending on what he has left to do it is possible that he could finish the camping merit badge in time. That is his responsibility however and not anyone elses. Is everyone sure that the Scout did not complete requirement 4...to actively serve in one of the specified leadership positions for 6 months after becoming a Life Scot. Three years is a lot of time and if he had done it early on some folks might not remember. If indeed this requirement has not been done then he has no chance of completeing all of his Eagle requirements in 6 weeks. I suggest that the Scoutmaster sit done with the Scout and review the Eagle requirements to verify if what you believe is true. If you have heard correctly then the scoutmaster or you can simply explain to the scout that with the limited time left he will be unable to complete all the Eagle requirements. I hope the troop leadership will remember (and remind the Scout) that there is nothing wrong with completing your youth career in Scouting have achieved the Life Rank. That in itself is a very high accomplishment. Also remind him that Eagle Scout is not the goal of Scouting. The goal is that the young man leave with the skills and values from his scouting experiences to be able to make good decisions throughout his life. Eagle Scout is the highest rank, it is not the goal or purpose of Scouting, nor does not achieving eagle diminish a persons other accomplishments. (This message has been edited by Bob White)