Bob White

"Every scout deserves a trained leader" Lord Baden-Powell The question isn't, is the course worth it or is the time worth it. The question is, do you feel the scouts are worth it? BW

Perhaps taking a look from a different angle will help. The flag is nylon, an all weather all purpose, washable material. Make a good crrying sleeve to help protect in and it should last many, many years. As far as the handling and the weight the problem is likely the pole and not the flag. If typical you have a hard wood plag pole wich even by itself is very weighty for a young scout. Consider swithing to a lighter material such as aluminum. I bet that would solve the problem. BW

It seems clear that the council advancement committee could ask anyone except the scout to make the contacts. Remember the instructions read The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between the persons listed as references and the council service center." Bob White

I would sit down with the scouts and the parents and have each boy tell you what the problem is. Then I would have both stand and recite the scout oath together. Then sit and go around the table and have each scout and parent say something nice about the other scout. When that is through I would read them the section of the Youth Protection Policies from the Guide to Safe Scouting that talks about no physical or mental abuse, no fights, no insults, no name calling. Read them the part where they will both be removed from scouting and tell them you are serious. Finally offer them the chance to shake hands and end the trouble, or have them and their parents brought before the troop committee. Then let the boys and the parents end it or go escalate it. Bob White

shemgren has the correct reference. For as long as I have been an adult scotuer (mid 70s) it has been the council advancement committee or it's designees contacting the references. In almost every case that designee has been the troop committee advancement chair. It has never been the scout's responsibility to do anything other than supply names and addresses for as long as I know. Bob

Well since you asked.... I can see where there ia an apprporiate time for each action, and a good leader will know when to escalte to the next level. I would always try to solve behavioral problems with the scout first. There are a lot of ways to do that, Scoutmaster Conferences, counseling, training, encoraging and rewarding proper behaviour. If that didn't work I would involve the parent and mor often than not I would talk to the parent and the boy together. Only if that did not work and the behavior was such that it caused a danger to the boy or to others would I go to the step required by the BSA youth protection program for safety matters and have a confernce between the parents and the troop committee. Nowhere in this process do I as the scout leader punish the scout. That is not my responsibility or training, and I do not volunteer my time to punish other peoples children, (you would have to pay me and pay me well to do that). Punishment is the parent's task not mine. Thanks for listening, Bob White

Read the recipe for a meal and have the scouts guess the name of the dish. Name a food and have them determine if you bake, fry, boil, steam, or eat the food raw. Put a different spice or herb in each of 12 lunch bags. The scouts must use sight and smell only to identify the contents. How many in a? How many pints in a quart? Quarts in a gallon, cups in a quart? ounces in a pound? doughnuts in a dozen? you get the idea? Match food items to food groups. The price is right. Show a food items and see which patrol gets closest to the actual cost.

The current structure recommended for a scout troop is for for three types of patrols. > New Scout Patrols, for scouts in there first year of scouting until they earn First Class > Regular Patrols for boys first class and over > Venture patrols for boys 14 years and up looking for high adventure activities Venture patrol is about having an advanced outdoor skill program for older scouts. All patrols have the same leadership opportunity except that New Scouts ahave a co leader in the office of Troop Guide and positions change monthly rather than on a recommended 6-9 month basis. The current program recommends that the SPL and ASPLs not be part of patrols. See the SM handbook, SPL handbook and SM Leader Specific training. Bob White

packsaddle writes "A simple majority of a small number of persons require our public silence on disagreements with BSA." And that is close. Actually a small representative group of the the organizations that use scouting, in compliance with a Congressional Charter, are responsible for approving program elements and policies as recommended by subcommittees made up of volunteer scouters and youth members of the BSA. They set the rules and methods for a private organization that we are not required to join. So since they are operating well within the rules, laws and guidelines of such an organization, and have been for decades, it is our choice to be members and work within those rules or to not be members. There is no law or civil right that allows you membership in an organization just because you want in, or that allows you to stay just because you want to stay. To say "I'm going to stay and fight against the practices of my own program" is not your choice. Once you become a nuisance and distraction to the mission of the program you will likely be removed from the membership. There is no professional or volunteer whose job is to listen to members publicly denounce the BSA. We all have better things to do, namely serving the youth and adult members who accept the mission and the methods of the BSA. If the rule was the reverse the reaction would be the same. If the BSA allowed homosexuals and you decided as a member to publicly denounce that membership practice then the BSA would remove your membership. You are not required to belong to a private organization that you disagree with, and the BSA is not required to retain you as a member. Bob White

Allow me to take some bandwidth to promote Philmont Training Center. I would encourage each of you to give serious consideration to attending a seminar in an area of scouting that brings you the greatewst joy. It might be the volunteer role you have now, or one you want to fill someday. Philmont is 137,000 acres of beautiful country in North east new Mexico. While you attend a week of seminars with some of the most dedicated scout volunteers from around the coiuntry (and beyond) your family will be busy taking part in staffed programs that they will remember for years to come. After just one vist my son at 11 years ols said he wouldn't ask to go to Disney World ever again if he could go back to Philmont. There are activities for every member of the family young or old alike. My wife after having down a week of museums and hikes now enjoys sighting in the garden near the beautiful Villa Philmonte with a camera in hand, a comfy chair and a good book. She gets wonderful wildlife shots and comes hope more relaxed than from any other vacation we go on. The cost for a family is incredibly inexpensive when you realize that the cost covers a wide variety activities, food and shelter. You'll enjoy seeing the scouts arrive and leave daily by the hundreds as they hike the web of trails of the Sangre de Cristo mountains. You'll learn, share, recharge, reconnect and celebrate the greatness of this program. Ask you District Executive about the course available this summer at Philmont Training Center. See you there, BW

As a unit volunteer you are a spkesman for no one but yourself. you are not a spokesman for your chartering organization and you are not authorized to express views or comment on behalf of the Boy Scouts of America. Aas long as you make that clear you are free to speek your mind, just know that if your opinion conflicts with poicies and mision of the BSA you may find your membership revoked. The only local persons authorized to speak on the behalf of the BSA is the Council Scout Executive or his/her assigned spokesperson. Believe me it can be very frustrating. Often times I have heard the BSA misrepresented on a radio talk show and was sorely tempted to call in...but is not my place to to that. Is Roundtable the place to discuss this? Who at Roundatble can change a policy. We are required to dicuss this with the SE or the National Scout Office. Anywhere else in public is not productive and could lead to loss of membership if you are in disagreement with the policies of the BSA. Besides debate is not the purpose of Roundtable. Training? The purpose of training is to learn what scouting is not argue what it should be in someone's opinion. An internet Bulletin Board? The path we were given was SE or National office. This Board is neither. If you want to post your name and speak against the BSA policies you risk your membership and rightly so. Eat the apple like a worm from the inside or an adult from the outside. An underpaid SE? Good Luck finding one of those. If you believe that the big bucks Friends of Scouting get listened to more than you try increasing your pledge, it could be an interesting experiment. :) And really the BSA isn't being any of the monkeys. They are saying if you don't agree with the program be the monkey with his mouth covered because they are looking, and they are watching, and if you say or do anything to damage the program on this topic they will help you resign. By the way, no one said it was one CO one vote. It is not. Organizations that have more charters have more votes (before you say A HA see the LDS has the most units so they control the decisions, HORSE HOCKEY. They may be the largest CO but they do not have anywhere near the majority of the votes so sit back down.). I give the people on the executive board credit for understanding why we do what we do better than most unit leaders. We often get caught up in the "what we do" and never even learn the "how" or the "why". If unit leaders voted on every decision we would veer back and forth like a sail boat without a rudder traveling only where the strongest wind of opinion blows with no real course to follow. BW

NJ, Yo be precise, you said "this is really about reps of one group of religions imposing their religious beliefs on others". nnd that NJ is your personal opinion and has no basis in any fact. You want every location of ebery organization to be able to determine what the program is and that is not going to happen. Anyone can see the chaos that would follow that. The representatives of the chartering organizations have determined the mininum requirements of the membership in order to be in keeping with the mission of the program. They have told the individual charter holders that they can be more restrictive but not less restrictive, not unlike the relationship between the federal government and state government when it comes to many of our laws. If the BSA changes it will be rational dialogue with the people who make that decision not from disgruntled volunteers who malign the values of the program they claim to lead. If you really disagree with the policy tell national but why tell us? We do not make the change, and I have only met a few scouters who want that change to be made. Again I return to a day back in the 70s when I was invited to join a local Moose lodge. After being selected the class representative and going through the initiation ceremony for my fellow inductees we attended a very nice reception. I was asked to be on the membership committee and after suggesting some mixwer type activities where we could meet potential members I was cautioned that we had to be careful how we invited people since we did not allow black members. I was appalled and immediately resigned from the group, took my fiance by the hand and left. I have never looked back. The Moose have since changed there membership rules. I guess I could have put my principles aside and waited for the day when they agreed with me, but I left. I also told every one I knew of there policy and I know I cost them some members and attendance at dances and such. I could not imagine being a member of an organization whose values differed so much from my own. Nor could I be a member of a group and criticize it so vehemently either. So I made a decision based on my principles and left. That is what I learned in scouting as a boy and practice as an adult. Bob White

Acco40, You need to know that the BSA has established and practiced a policy that says that an avowed homosexual or athiest may not hold membership in the BSA. In addition a member or who publicly supports these interests or publicly speaks out against the BSa on these membership policies can (and have had) their memberships revoked. The BSA recognizes the constitutional right of citizens to free speech. They inturn want you to know they have the right and will excercise the right to free association and can choose who may and who may not hold membership. The BSA in keeping with the ideals established in the scout law, specifically 'obedient' have said that if you want to voice your opinion on this matter it is to be done through contact within the scouting channels to your SE or the National Executive Board. IF YOU GO PUBLIC you can, and likely will have your membership revoked. So they are saying if this is what you choose for your legacy then resign from the program you disagree with, if you feel the need to publicly criticize it. If you want to be obedient and seek change then take action that might actually cause change. Tell the national office how you feel. There will be no repercussions for having an opinion even if it is not one they share. They insist however to be a member in good standing that you not work against your own program in public. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You raise interesting points NJ unfortunately they are not supported by any actual facts or process of the BSA as you represent them. Basically the points you raised were untrue at the very least and fear mongering at the worst. There is no single religion conspiracy. There are membership requirements. The voices of the charter organization representatives on the Executive Committee do matter. This is all alot of spitting in the wind. You wear the uniform and bask in the name and heritage of a group who's principles you do not except. That's inane. We teach young people to make ethical choices throughout their lives. Why not make an ethical choice. Is it ethical to wear the uniform of an organization whose principles you do not share? I hold no malice to those who choose to leave the BSA because of their chosen principles, or to those who stay because they share the principles of others in the group. But I worry that my son or grandson would end up with a leader who could not make such a simple decision based on principles, because how then would they make the difficult decisions when it mattered most. Bob White

I don't think you will like my response rockymtnscouter. Your problem as I see it through the filter of my experience is not that you have two militant committee members. The problem is that the Scoutmaster and the Committee Chair are married to each other. This is a bad situation and rarely works. As the committee chair you need to be able to look objectively at the scouting program in your organization. Remember you don't work for the SM, you work for the Chartered Organization. I'm sorry but as Husband and wife, Mother/son, Brother/brother, whatever the family relationship exists between the scoutmaster and committee chair it is a bad one. You cannot serve two masters. If the committee members think that the boys are not getting an opportunity to lead have you been able to objectively look at and see they might be right. If they are so frustrated that they have tried to do junior leading training themselves, could it be they have a real reason to be frustrated. You are just to close to the situation and it puts so much control under one roof that it is bound to cause conflict in the unit. You are right in the belief that the biggest problem in unit sscouting is often the ability of adults to play nice together. But it may not be that these two committee members are the ones not playing nice. Consider going to the charter organization and admitting that having the two positions in one family may not be in the best interest of the unit and ask that they select a new committee chair. You can be just as valuable in a different committee role. (by the way stay away from being the treasurer that puts you right back into the conflict). Food for thought, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

kwc57 raises a good point in many ways. Could a scouter who is divorced or considered an adulterer be refused membership as a unit leader? How about an overwieght scouter? How about one who has excessive parking fines? The Answer to each of these is YES. The Chartered Organizations are allowed to be be even stricter than the BSA in approving unit volunteers that they feel are fit (physically mentally and emeotionally) to represent their organization and be a role model for their scouts. It would be nice if more Charter Organizations spent more time exercising that control. The National BSA membership rules are also set by the chartering organizations that use scouting. They feel the the mission of scouting (not the physical skills of scouting) cannot be met without the scout and scouter possessing, or at at least being open, to specific principles held by those organizations. As unit volunteers it is not our program or our decision. The ownership of the program is represented by the heads of the charter organizations and their representatives on the National Executive Committee as they have been for over 90 years. As volunteers we agreed to follow the BSA program not to determine it. Look at the mission, there is no possible way to deny a duty to God and be able to achieve the mission. As far as homosexuality, that is the decision of the National Committee based on the values of a majority of it's members. That's how governing in the US works. It's the system we teach in patrol and troop elections and in our advancement program. Why is anyone surprised by this method. One member of this board chose to leave the program because he could not support this policy. I admire him for living his principles. In my opinion, to belong to a group whose principles you cannot accept is being dishonest to yourself. The BSAs decision in this issue is truly 'We won't ask, you don't tell'. Just follow the rules and program, and support the mission. The BSA doesn't distinguish between an avowed homosexual and a person who speaks out against the BSA. They both are counterproductive to the mission. It's a private organization, the BSA can choose to say "if you don't share our opinion then leave" and they have the force of the US Supreme Court and the US Constitution to support them. Each of us has the right to make that decision. But (again in my opinion) to stay and to berate the program that you volunteered to join is immature. You become the worm, eating the apple from the inside out. If you must protest the policies of the BSA, do so as an adult and bite at the apple from the outside. Live your conviction and stop representing an organization whose principles you cannot accept. Respectfully submitted, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi OGE, I don't think anyone means to overlook the sacrifices made by our military. In Fact I'm sure more of us have a family member in the armed force than we have in the astronaut program. There is just something so romantic to the human spirit about space travel and reaching beyond or planetary limits that captures our imagination and attention. Does that make sense? BW

Actually Roundtables have two equally important goals. It is to give unit volunteers THE WILL TO DO and THE SKILL TO DO a quality scouting program in the unit they serve. The use of monthly themes is one vehicle used to accomplish those goals, but to share the theme is not the purpose of Roundtable. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

raynari, I have several MBs from that era that I would give your Eagle scout. Private message me and we can work out what badges he needs. Bob White

I believe that the one great spirit gave each of us all the holes we require. If anyone one chooses to add more then that is an issue between him(her) and the creator. You need to make your own decisions about your own body, the trouble comes when you try to make decisons about someone elses. BW

Here again is another way to look at things twocubdad. As the old commercial said "it's not nice to fool mother nature". Being mindful of the needs and characteristics of New Scouts is just part of the socialization battle. You must also be aware of the characteristics and needs of the older scouts. Keep in mind some of the older guys were just new scouts themselves a few months earlier. They don't want to relive that time, they have their basic skills now and they are anxious to run with the big dogs. One of the main elements of the New scout patrol is that the programs are kept separate for the most part during the first year, especially early on. Bring the new scouts in with the other patrols for opening and closing periods and inter-patrol games. Other than that, run a separate program foucused on the fundamentals of scouting and Tenderfoot to First Class advancement. As the year progresses you can introduce the New Scouts into more activities with the regular patrols. This allows both groups time to acclimate to each other. Remember the younger ones don't have the skills or strength to keep up with many of the older scouts, and the older scouts don't want to feel anchored down by the younger less skilled scouts. One year makes a huge difference in the maturity level of both groups. Once the New scouts can hold ther own on an outing and have gotten a little stronger, and the older ones have had a chance to be introduced to the new guys, the two groups will socialize much smoother. Don't try to force either group into a social situation that neither want or are prepared for. There is definite method to what some see as scouting's madness. The New Patrol System works when we use it. Good Luck, Bob White

What I have found works on a consistant basis is you tell the parents ahead of time (by the way if your troop has waited until a couple of months before crossover to look make a relationship with a Webelos Den you are at least 10 months too late) and let them know that if their son comes to their first meeting with the Parents section Child Abuse done they will receive their Scout Badge. We then introduce them to the Troop Guide who spends the next 40 minutes teaching and testing them on the scout Badge requirements. Then the SM comes in and has a fire side chat sort of SM minute welcoming them to the troop answering quaestions and learning about their hobbies and interests. That night they leave the first meeting with their first badge and they are fired-up. I've done it this way for many years and it works great. But then it's the program that is succeeding it's nothing I made up. BW

But you know Barry, national statistics do not support what you are seeing locally. Overall the retention of cub scouts throughout the tenure of the program is excellent. There is no argument that a weakness in packs is the ability to effectively recruit adults, but I see that as a separate issue to Webelos transition. And although I understand your point about Cub Leaders needing to know about the scout program I respectfully offer that cub leaders need to know the cub program. The smooth transition to the scouting methods of a troop and patrol is built into the New Scout Patrol it is just underutilized by Scoutmasters. A scout who has genuinely earned the Arrow of Light is ready to get his Scout Badge and start Boy Scouts. If the Webelos leader has been conscientious about following the Webelos program then the boy will have everything he needs to go to a real troop. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

twocubdad What do you think happens more often...a cub leader contacts a scoutmaster and asks for a den chief, and then the sm asks if anyone is interested. OR A scoutmaster evaluates scouts as they grow and identifies those he/she thinks would be good Den Chiefs, prepares them for the job and then offers their services to local packs? Which process do you see being used the most frequently and which do you think would be most effective? BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is a different way to look at this. Webelos to Scout Transition is totally different activity then recruitment, and is more important to the growth of a troop. We at the troop level need to stop looking at Webelos as new recruits and view them as what they really are, individuals on a continuing trek through scouting. These are not NEW scouts they are changing as scouts. We don't go out to specifically recruit Webelos, they transition to the Webelos program. We are not two organizations, we are one oganization serving different age groups. we need to mentally and physically bridge the gap. My own scouting background as a youth and as leader has been in both programs, but the majority of my time has been spent in the Troop level. I have the greatest respect for Cub Leaders, especially for den leaders who stay with the den from Tigers to Webelos II. They have kept a den intact for 4 1/2 years, a feat rarely duplicated by patrols in a troop. They see nearly 90% of their Webelos to Arrow of Light in 18 months. Many troops are unable to do that with First Class. These are leaders who did the job they were asked to do. So when I see the horrible number of Webelos who cross over and the even worse numbers of those that stay the first year. My experience tells me where the problem is. It is with the scout troops. We, as a program, do not do as good a job as the packs do. Its not unusual for packs to bring in a dozen or more new boys (who have never been in scouting before) each and every year, and not just Tigers. How many troops can do that? Here we have boys who have stayed in a program for 4 1/2 years and we cannot get them into troops and keep them for 12 months. Why? Here are the problems I notice. 1) Boring troop meetings. If you have to put on a special program on nights when Webelos visit, then you have a program that is boring your own scouts the rest of the time. Every meeting should be one where Webelos can come and see the real BSA program in action. 2) The troop has not developed a relationship with a pack or packs. This is the troop's responsibility. The Packs already have the boys, the troops are the ones who need and want them. 3) The Patrol Method and the New Patrol system is underused or ignored by many troops. I cannot stress the importance and effectiveness of this program. The Patrol Method is what makes this program unique and is the vehicle for all other scouting methods. New Scout Patrol is vital for socializing a boy into the troop. This paired with the First Class Emphasis program is what keeps scouts in the troop that fragile first year. There will be those scoutmasters (some on this board) who will loudly disagree with New Patrol and First Class emphasis, but when you ask what their drop rate is among New Scouts they will, and have already, answered "Only 40 to 50%". That is a very sad condition to accept so lightly. When we lose a sscout in lesss than 12 months we disgrace the efforts of our Cub leaders who kept them for over four years. 4)We didn't "Keep the Promise". Read the first few pages of the Boy scout Handbook where we promise the scout what to expect. How many of those things did you do last week? Last maonth? Last Year? EVER? 5)The Master of Scouts vs. a Master of scouting. Too mant troop leaders think they are "in charge of the troop" rather than responsible for training junior leaders. The 'in charge guys have their plates too full to do what they need to do so they alter the program in order to feel successful. Here is a good self examination when choosing a troop to join. Does the Scoutmaster say "My troop" or do they say "in the troop that I serve". because in no way does the adult volunteer hold the deed to the troop. The Charter Organization head can say "my troop" the members of the CO can say "our troop" the youth members of the troop can say "my troop". But the Adult leaders do not join the troop as the youth do. They volunteer to serve the troop as leaders not as owners. Follow Me Boy's was a cute movie, a fun movie, but it is not good scouting and should not be looked as as a training film. A good Scoutmaster never walks in front of the boys. So if you want Webelos to cross over to your troop and stay. You need be be a real scouting program. You need to actually use the methods of scouting, be the servant not the served, and be the ones to extend your hand to the cub packs. My suggestion to packs is to have a webelos transition person who knows and understands good boy scouting. have them visit the troops and evaluate the programs. Then hold those troop leaders to the quality of program your Webeols deserve in a troop. Let the SM know that if you are going to bring your Webelos to visit and join you expect the New Scout patrol sytem to be used, that you expect a Troop guide and ASSt. SM dedicated to First Class emphasis. That you expect them to "keep the promise". The problem in keeping youth in scouts is not the quality or content of the program, but the consistency with which it is delivered. Bob White