Bob White

I absolutely agree with Dan that the ASM for the New Scout Patrol should be trained. So should all scout volunteers for that matter. But I see no harm in it being the former Webelos leader as long as he/she has the skills to do the job. How good a leader is has far less to do with how long they have been scouters and more to do with following the scouting program. I've seen new leaders take to scouting like a duck to water and long time scouters who take to the program like a fish to a bicycle. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Young Blood, I apreceiate your enthusiasm for the program and I understand that you feel some of the standards are not what you want them to be. But understand that there are millions of members in the BSA and no matter what the rules, policies and methods are at any given time they will never be to everyone's liking. For the sake of the scouts you serve you will need to change if you are to be an effective leader. You cannot wait for the program to change to how you want things done. You need to follow the current program methods and policies in order for the scouts you come in contact with to have a quality scouting experience . You cannot add conditions to the requirements to advancement no matter how well intentioned they are. When it comes to Uniform, Youth Protection, and Advancement your personal opinions do not matter. You are required to follow the policies of the BSA, and you signed a written agreement on your adult application that says you will. Ed, How did the hypothetical scout manage to be able to complete all his requirements EXCEPT Scout Spirit and then leave? Was the troop's adult leadership in a hypothetical coma? Didn't any one know what this scout was doing or where he was on advancement? Did no one know anything about him as a person outside of troop meetings? Did the hypothetical leaders normally wait until the end of the eagle advancement to find out what kind of person this boy is? To say he didn't come for awhile because he didn't want to, says nothing about his use of the Oath and Law and it says a lot about the quality (or more the lack of quality) of the troop meetings. Some hypothetical leader needs to hypothetically sit down and hold a hypothetical conversation with the hypothetical scout. Hypothetically speaking, Bob White

I actually agree with Ed! BW

excellent points OGE, Red Feather and k9gold. Bob

Rumors and inuendo. I know of no such restriction. BW

Ed Your scenario tells us very little about the life of the boy and nothing about the quality of the troop or its leadership. For all we know the boy is a better scout than the Scoutmaster is. Maybe the scout was turned off by any number of things that could have happened. Maybe the SM did't trust scouts to be able to elect their own leaders. Maybe the troop committee and adult leaders created a barrage of artificial rules to run the troop. Maybe all they did was merit badge classes for troop meetings, or told scouts what merit badges they had to earn at camp. Maybe he saw scouts having to do meaningless chores as punishments instead of being lead to make decisions that developed character. Maybe the scout wanted the program that was in his handbook and wasn't getting it so he got dissappointed and quit. While gone from the troop he is a good student, volunteers at local charities, is an altar server at church, and a member of the student council. The only person who doesn't know what a good person he is is his old scoutmaster who is too busy running the troop to sit down with the scouts and learn who they are inside. Now he gets close to 18 and realizes that just because he wanted a real scouting program and wasn't getting one he shouldn't punish himself by missing an opportunity to recieve a recognition he deserved. So he goes back to the unit willing to put up with whatever program is there so that he can finish the requirements in the BSA handbook and receive the Eagle recognition. But we don't know that because the scoutmaster turns the boy away without asking about how he has lived his life according to the ideals of scouting while he was away. Why? Because all the scoutmaster is able to see is the scouts absenteeism and he puts attendance before character (dispite what the handbook says about Scout Spirit). So does the scout have scout spirit? Evidently not in your eyes. But I don't know until I have a chance to sit and talk to the scout and learn how he lives the oath an law in his everyday life (just like the handbook requires). Bob White

Here is where the canyon that separates Ed and I begins. Ed sees the act of littering the latrine as a crime, I see it as a mistake. Ed sees the scout cleaning up his own mess as punishment, I see it as an ethical decision that the scout has chosen to make. It is not a matter of symantics, it is a difference in attitude and leader method. It doesn't take leadership skills to make a boy do what you tell him to. It takes leadership skills to guide a scout to make self-determined choices based on the scouting ideals. Bob White

If he is not coming to meetings then he wouldn't be expecting to advance or be passing advancement requirements. That is not what this thread is discussing. The question here is can a scout return from an absence and continue toward Eagle, and the answer is yes. If he can give examples of living by the Oath and Law in his everyday life then he passes the qualifications of Scout Spirit, because Scout Spirit does not include an attendance requirement. If you want to change the conditions of the discussion please start a new thread. Bob White

Now I think we have reached a common agreement eisely. The result of the personal conference should create one of two responses from the scout. We will reach an understanding as to why he littered the latrine and he will realize that what he did was not scout-like. When I ask him what he now thinks he should do to correct the problem HE will make the correct decision to go clean the the mess he made. That is not a punishment, that is a scout learning to make ethical decisions. The second possibillity is that the boy will refuse to clean the mess he made, in which case he is not living by the scout ideals and does not belong on a scout activity. In addition he is a health risk to the other scouts and needs to be disciplined. Since it is the parents' responsibility to discipline him, I need to get him and his parents into the same place so that they can do their job. He is going to call his parents and say that he needs to go home because he is not behaving well. The scouts learn very quickly that if you want to play with scouts- you have to play like a scout. Bob White

And if I put the two choices of having the scout clean quartermater or spending time with him discussing his behavior and the ideals of scouting on to a scale that measures constructive here is what I see. If the purpose of scouting is to have a clean QM then send the scout in to do extra work. If the purpose of scouting is the teach the scout to make ethical choices based on the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law then I sit down and talk to the scout. You can accomplish more personal growth in a 15 minute conference than in 15 hours of chores. I guess "constructive" depends on what you are trying to build. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed Until I take the time to talk with the scout I will never know. Counting Xs on an attendance chart certainly will not tell me. If he is not at meetings because he is volunteering at a shelter...A Scout is Helpful and Kind If he has been taking care of an ailing family member..A Scout pledges to help other people at all times. If he is volunteering to help with a religious education class....A Scout does his Duty to God. If it's wrestling season....A Scout keeps himself Physically Fit. If his meetings are for a merit badge class that he already has the badge for and he needs that time to study...A scout is mentallly awake. If his parents have a committment and need him to stay home and watch his siblings...A Scout is Obedient. I can see many ways that a scout can not attend your required number of activities and still be a great scout. But it requires a leader to spend time knowing the scouts rather than making artificial rules up to be "in control" of the troop. Scout Spirit is about living the Oath and Law in your every day life. No amount of circumstances you post will change what the Scout handbook says. Follow the handbook and the rules of advancement. It is far more fun to use the existing BSA program, than to make one up as you go along. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If by constructive you think having a scout who misbehaves clean a latrine, all you will gain is a clean latrine not a scout who understands how to behave correctly. If you mean have them sit in a corner, all you will have is an embarrased scout who behaves badly. We had a situation once when a SM didn't like the way a scout was treating his tent and was going to make him sleep outside in the rain. That's neglect and it's illegal. If you mean sit with the scout and ask him why he is behaving this way and find out what might be troubling him. Ask him how he feels this is in keeping with the oath he has taken. Ask him what a better way to handle the situation might be. Explain how his actions effect the patrol and troop. Explain to him that his behavior needs to follow the oath and law. Let him know you believe is a better person than what he is behaving as. Take the time to understand the scout and help the scout understand what it means to be a scout. Then I would say THAT is constructive. Constructive is ending up with a better person not a cleaner latrine. If the scout does not feel he can behave like a scout then he has no business being on a scout event and is a danger to himself and others and needs to go home. There is no punishment in this, there is a concern for the scout's development and a concern for the welfare of the boys. I am still waiting for anyone to post a reference from any BSA source that gives ideas or guidelines on punishments or Disciplining that includes anything other than involving their parents for assistance. Bob White The best way to control the group as a leader is to understand the individual scouts and be aware of whats happening around you. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eisley, I encourage you to re-read Section 1 of the Guide to Safe Scouting. Discipline is not the job of youth leadership and you will not find anything in the scouting program to my knowledge that supports your opinion. The role of the junior leader is to plan, encourage, train, communicate, set the example, represent, but nowhere is disciplining regarded as a leadership skill or responsibility for junior leaders. The guide to safe scouting clearly states that this is an adult responsibility and directs you on how it should be handled. Bob White

"If a Scout doesn't attend Troop meetings becuase he feels he doesn't need to, how is that showing Scout Spirit?" Doesn't need to because the SM is doing all the leading? Doesn't need to because the meetings aren't organized and nothing gets done? Doesn't need to because they are doing a merit badge as a program for the month and he already has, or isn't interested in, that merit badge. Doesn't need to because the Scoumaster doesn't follow the Scout Handbook or the scouting program so why go? Doesn't need to because he is not valued as a member? The bottom line is that nowhere in the advancement program is a unit allowed to add in mandatory attendance unless it specifically states it in the advancement requirement. The Scout Spirit requirement is explained in multiple locations in the Boy Scout Handbook and NONE of them include attendance. It is about how you incorporate the Oath and Law into your everyday life. Read the book. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

By talking to the scout. Ask them for specific examples. "if I spoke to the minister at your church, how would they say you were reverent?" "If I talked to your parents what would they say about being helpful?" "You took an oath to help other people at all times tell us how you fulfill that promise." "What part of the law means the most to you and why." "Tell us about your attendance at scout events and how a scout is trustworthy." Notice that the emphasis isn't on statistics it's on character. At the end of a scouts time in the troop I could not care less about his attendance. I care about his character.

Hi Laura, There is a great book available at your council service center with pioneering activities for the scouts to do that will allow them to build som really fun, cool, stuff. It's written by John Sweet. The secret to getting scouts to do these things is to give them an adventure that requires them to use the skills you want them to practice. Hand them a piece of rope and tell them to tie an assigned knot....then listen to them snore. Give them some spars and offer an incentive to the first patrol that can get a patrol member 10 feet off the ground and you have adventure. Bob White

Read the handbook Ed! Scout Spirit is about who you are not how good your attendance is. Give us a BSA reference that says otherwise. Scouting is what the BSA says it is not what individuals 'think' or 'feel' it should be. The Boy Scout Handbook is the study guide we give to the boys. It says that Scout Spirit is about living the Oath and Law in your everyday life. You have a responsibility to stick to the information in the handbook. Good attendance is a result of good program. Meet the needs and characteristics of scouts and they will will come. If you have to use artificial rules to make scouts show-up then scouting spirit is not your biggest problem. if you need to have rules to get kids to play the game of scouting it would be like hanging a bone around an ugly kids neck in order to get the dog to play with him (old joke). Even if the dog cooperates it's still an ugly kid. If the troop program is so weak that you need attendance rules to get scouts to show-up you may get better attendance but you still have a weak program. Voluntary participation is a good gauge of program. Scout-like behavior at school, work, home and community is how we measure Scout Spirit. It's in the handbook. Bob White

Evmori, Read the top box on page 47 of the Boy Scout Handbook, requirement 9 on page 108, requirement 10 on page 164, and all of page 170. Every one of these sections say that scout spirit is about how a scout lives the elements of the Oath and Law in his everyday life. Scout spirit is about living the Oath and Law, and has nothing to do with attendance. Can you site anything other than your personal opinion that says otherwise? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

One of the things you will need to accept as a new leader in the BSA Youngblood is that the scouting program is determined by the BSA and not by the personal opinions of any of us as volunteers. It is important that leaders follow the rules and not what they "feel" the rules ought to be. Bob White

I see a pandoras box being opened once a program with as many members as we have of differing attitudes and backgrounds are given permission to punish children. The BSA does not train leaders on how to punish or discipline for a very good reason...that is not what we are about. If you have a scouts who don't want to cook you are going to have a very angry patrol on your hands. They are going to be hungry. I would teach the Patrol Leader to remind the two scouts that a scout is helpful and they need to do their part of the duties. I would have the patrol leader ask why they would not help. Perhaps there was a reasonably explaination for the disharmony. If the scouts simply refused to help for no reason other than they didn't want to help, I would call their parents and have them taken home until they could participate according to the Oath and Law. It's sort of a method of show me some character or take a car ride. Let the parents be the disciplinarians, you be a scout leader. If I do nothing tempers will build and mischief will follow, possibly even a fight. It is a recipe for injury. Having boys behave this way is unsafe, they need to go home. Give them an opportunity to behave in a scout like way or leave. It's the best motivator in the world...if you want to do scout stuff ,you have to behave like a scout. There is more the rules of punishment than just the one about not using corporal punishment. I've seen all sorts of humiliation done to scouts who misbehave. It is demeaning to the scout and to scouting. The most appropriate thing to do is leave punishment to parents and you focus on training junior leaders. Bob White

Define "deal with". There are too many variations to deal with effectively and secure the safety and welfare of the scout. Not to mention keep in the the rules of Youth Protection. Our purpose is to teach ethical decision making and leadership to scouts. Not to punish children who do not act like scouts. A scout who makes a bad decision to not act in a scout like manner needs to be returned to his parents or guardians until he feels he can act like a scout. BW

I guess I see it differently. Leaders earn respect by the way they lead. Scouts should cooperate because they took an Oath to be trustworthy, helpful, friendly and courteous. The behaviour we seek needs to come from inside the character of the scout not by the authority of the other person. my humble opinion, BW

"One area that is lacking in todays BSA materal is down to earth suggestions for controlling behavoir." I don't see it lacking at all. I see the entire scouting program as a method to control behavior. It just doesn't have options for punishment. We have over 1.3 million leaders. If you set any methods for punishment it would be abused. Heck its abused already. The only rule needed is in the Guide to Safe Scouting. 1. You have a responsibility to protect scouts from harming themselves and others. 2. A Scout who needs to be punished should be brought to the unit committee with his parents or guardians to find a resolution to the behavior. If needed the chartering organization can remove his membership from the troop. If you learned anything else in Scout Leader Training then shame on the trainers for not following the syllabus, and the methods of scouting. There has NEVER been any scout leader training that included ANYTHING on how to punish other peoples children. Make sure they have an active hands on program, train junior leaders, and let everyone know that each person is expected to behave like a scout to be around scouts. Read section one of the Guide to Safe Scouting titled Members Responsibilities. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is no such thing as a born leader. leadership is a skill that is learned. In the BSA it is the SM's job to teach it. Like any skills that children try to learn there will be mistakes made. As an adult I did not give the scout the leadership position, the other scouts did. If they want to re-elect a new leader that is their right as the voters, just as adults can re-call an elected official. Remember scouting is a reflection of adult responsibilities and civics for young people to learn from. I always tell scouts as they join that they are expected to live by the Oath and Law at all times in order to participate. If you do not behave in a scout-like manner you will be sent home and are free to return whenever you feel you are ready to behave according to the Oath and Law. I tell them they will be sent home not as a punishment to them but because of my responsibility to protect the scouts in the troop. A scout who does not follow the Oath and Law will cause an accident that will in some way injure themselves or others and I do not want that to happen. As soon as they are ready to behave in a manner that does not endanger anyone they are welcome to return. I would never volunteer my time to punish other peoples children, and the BSA neither teaches or expects you to do that. Bob White

Barry, I always enjoy your posts and often agree with what you have to say, but where in the leadership training of the scouting program do we teach adults or youth how or when to 'punish' scouts. The rules of the Youth Protection are clear on this. Punishment is the responsibility of the unit committee and onlywith the direct involvement of the parents or guardians. Unless you know of any material in the BSA program that supports other actions your advice could cause the adult or junior leader to forfeit their membership in the unit and possibly in the BSA. I understand the emotion to want to discipline the scout as you would a parent with a child however you are not their parent, they are not your child. If their behavior requires punishment then send them home to those responsible for that aspect of their development. If the lesson you want to teach cannot be learned without punishment then it is not a lesson you should be teaching. Bob White