Bob White

Mark, I think you are right about the second two points, but not all games reach a scouting purpose and not all are approprite. As far as the safety of paint ball, goggles would not be enough protection. Those projectiles can raise quite a welt depending on the distance you are shot from and where you are hit. Another point, if you look at the GTSS under the fire arms rules, scouts can only shoot at bulls-eyes. You are not allowed to shoot at human silhouettes. I would guess that if scouting doesn't want us to shoot at human likenesses then we shouldn't shoot at humans either. Bob

As with the Boy Scout Handbook Ed, you read my posts but you don't understand them. Read it again if you need to. I am all for fun for fun's sake but as a scout leader my role is to make scouting is a game with a purpose and that purpose is to achieve the mission of scouting. For the short time I get to influence the scout I believe in fun for the scout's sake. But again you and I see the program in a completely different way.

Geez you still haven't read the Boy Scout Handbook yet have you. Among all the references I gave you is the one key statement, that the best judge of a boy's Scout Spirit is the Scout himself. He knows if he has incorporated the Oath and Law into his life and can tell you how. But Ed you have to take the time to talk to the scout not just judge him by your own pet peeves. What you are doing is wrong, unscoutlike and a violation of advancemt policies. For pete's sake Ed, READ the Boy Scout Handbook sometime. (Try taking the chip off your shoulder as you read it.) Bob White

Ed I'd like to respond to your question about "how about fun just for fun", because I think it again shows just how far apart we are in how we envision our role in the scouting program. As I said in my previous post I'm all for fun. I like doing fun stuff. I think scouting done well is fun. I think scouts in a real scouting program have fun. BUT, I also believe that scouting is a game with a purpose. Why do I think that, because that is how Baden-Powell defined scouting. That is how the BSA Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and New Leader Essentials defines Scouting. Scouting has a purpose and as leaders we have the responsibility to make sure that purpose is realized. Did you know that if a scout attended every troop meeting and every campout and every summer camp for seven years as a Boy Scout we would only have him in a scouting setting for 10% ofhis available time. We have a sliver of opportunity to instill skills and ideals that could change his life. So I don't have time to be a playground monitor. The games we play need to have a purpose. He may not usually realize it. In fact the less he realizes the better job I'm doing. But my role as a leader is to make sure that everything he is exposed to at a scouting activity is helping him to grow in the mission of scouting. I like fun, I'm good at fun, and a good scout leader is good at making scouting fun. But if a scout just wants to play for playing sake he has the other 90% of his time to that in. For the 10% that scouting has him, he needs to be growing as he plays. Bob White Scouting is a game with a purpose. Lord Robert Stephenson Baden-Powell (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I did state attendance does not equal Scout Spirit. However, it is one of the compononts of Scout Spirit. And also a componont of being loyal to the Troop." Gee I'm sorry Ed, cause I've looked everywhere I can think of; the Boy Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster Handbook, The Advancement Requirements handbook, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual, The Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training syllabus, The Troop Committee Guidebook, even the Eagle Scout Application and, (I'll bet you already know where this is going) I cannot find a single reference to any of the points you made. Please help us all by identifying the BSA source (other than your opinion) where the following points are made. 1)Attendance is a component of Scout Spirit. 2)A scout must prove loyalty to his troop in order to advance. If the Boy Scout Handbook doesn't require it then you can't require it. It's just that simple. Seriously Ed, I understand that change is difficult and old habits are tough to break, but your present position on this topic would improperly interfere with a boy's advancement and it violates the policies of the BSA. For the sake of the scouts you serve you need to come into compliance with the advancement policies and the current methods of scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

hops_scout, it is important to read the Guide to Safe Scouting for yourself. It is very specifc in its reference to war games as paint ball or projectiles with paint and dye. Nowhere does it equate capture the flag with war games. The best way to judge what games to play is 1) is it safe. 2) how does it teach or practice a scouting skill. We get very little time overall in a boys life to teach the lessons of scouting. Good Scout leaders make sure that everything they do has a purpose. When capture the flag first got introduced it had a purpose. Scouts were taught silent signals, teamwork as a patrol, and tracking skills. Capture the flag gave them a practical application to practice those skills. Often now when I see troops play capture the flag, they divide into two teams completing foregoing the patrol method. No signalling skills are taught or practiced. The scouts just run around hollering in the dark. If that were the troop I served I would work with the SPL and PLC to either pick a game with a purpose or learn skills applicable to the game. Kids can play games without scouting. They are in scouting to learn while they play. So although Laser Tag is not prohibited, and I agree sounds like a blast, I need to ask units that play it "what scouting skill is learned or practiced in the playing"? I am by no means opposed to boys playing games for fun and I think that laser tag would make a great patrol activity. But when the troop is involved I prefer a fun with a purpose. my two cents, Bob White

Units chartered by the LDS Church are not the only ones who have a difficult time doing two-night campouts. There are other religions as well, some who celebrate a Friday Sabbath, who would have difficulty with two nighters due to religious obligations. Let's remember that a scout is reverent and takes an Oath to Duty to God, and not be hasty to refer to their one night outings as a waste of time. Any time spent outdoors in the spirit of scouting is time well spent. my humble opinion, BW

So far Ed you have written the situation I am refering to is 100 % hypothetical. and Oh, by the way, you still haven't answered my question about why you think this hypothetical situation is real? and And my Scoutmaster(me)has no hang-ups except the ones you seem to think I have So what is the deal Ed? You keep changing things on us, is this about a "Hypothetical Situation" or is this you and a scout in the unit you serve? Also you wrote, I know attendance does not equal Scout Spirit and How is a Scout loyal to the Troop by being absent witout a good reason for an etended period of time? Well Ed, if attendance does not equal Scout Spirit, then lack of attendance cannot equal lack of Scout Spirit. Either they are related or they are not, and everyone seems to agree with your statement that they are not. How does the scout use loyal in his everyday life if you aren't seeing it in his scouting attendance. That's a fair question for you to ask. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I think your observations are true for most the Venturing program nationwide. In the grand scheme of things this is still a a program in it's infancy. I think the real measure of the program viability is another 5 years down the road. Our council is just developing a long term plan for venturing that includes special activities such a a venturing week at sumer camp. We have held and are continueing to develop a sort of Venture camporee we cal the Venture Adventure. I think this can be a very effective program it will be a matter of finding the right people to lead it and the financial support to help. High adventure equipment and activities often carry a higher price tag. BW

Many troops only do one night campouts mostly due to rligious worship responsibilities. Many however do two nights it really depends on the needs of the troop at any given period of time. Just as clarification there is no scouting recommendation to go camping once a month. That is a common but icorrect notion. The guidelines for outdoor activity is that the troop has an outdoor activity once a month. No where does it say that activity must be an over nighter. The Quality Unit Award asks for 10 days and nights including a scout long term camp such as summer camp. A can camp one night every other month and do summer camp and earn quality unit award and a scout in that troop could earn Camping MB in two years. Keep in mind also that your son is not limited to troop campouts if your SM follows the scouting program and has patrol aactivities as well as troop ones. Good Luck BW

There are other training courses that would do a better job of getting the units up and functioning than roundtable. Roundtable is supplemental training. It sounds like your troops need some basic training first. The best thing RT could do is help promote their participation in training and give them opportunities to practice and share what they learn. Get them NLE, Scoutmaster/Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specific, Introduction to Outdoor Skills and look into a new program called among other things Super Scouter Weekend. You will find information on them in Council/District Training Committee manual. Good Luck BW

Bob58 That is a question best asked of a CPA or tax lawyer than a scouter. I know scouters who deduct the entire cost of an awrds banquet and that is a legal no no. Some milage can be counted and some can't. if you really think there are enough deductions to make a difference talk to a pro in the area of taxes would be my advice. The other Bob

Hi OGE, The current Guide to Safe Scouting includes a list of restricted or prohibited activities for scouts to participate in. That list includes "war Games" wher participants shoot projectiles made of paint or dye at each other. It does not however list Laser Tag as a restricted or prohibited activity. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The siver Arrowhead Award is a commissioner service recognition and can only be worn on a commisioner uniform (one that displays a commisioner position of responsibility). BW Send your District Award of Merit nomination to the Advanncement Committee along with a detailed explaination of the window of opportunity for the presentation. Ask them if they feel his record merits the award and if they feel that it does, request it be presented outside the normal timeframe. Each district is limited to the number of DAMs they can present in a calendar year but they are not required to present them all at the same time. Hope this helps, BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi scoutldr, Please allow me to respond to some of the points you made. Understand I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion bu maybe I can offer a different vantage point for you to consider. Thanks in advance for your consideration. By the way I also joined scouting in 1962. 1)Everyone does have the same opportunity for the things you listed, there are of course more opportunities for youth than adults because it is their program. But as far as adult participation there are a lot of opportunities. I would not say there is a Good ol Boy network as much as there is a philosophy of "stick with what works". As you serve on District and council events you develop a reputation of strengths and weaknesses. As regional and national opportunities happen your reputation can open opportunities for different ways to serve as an adult. If you do a good job then you get remembered and the next time an opportunity opens up you are called again. Just like in other areas of life scouting wants to do a good job and will go back dip in the same well where the water was good before. 2) At some point every scout leader was fresh off the streets. Everone has to have their first position in scouting somewhere along the line. If you are looking at commissioners as the expert advice in scouting then you have been mislead as to their purpose. Unit commissioners are the walking resource library of scouting. They don't have to have all the answers, they need to know where scouting has published the answer. A good commisioner doesn't need experience if he/she is saying here is the scouting method of doing that, you can find it in the ___________resource, they need training like any other volunteer. 3) Costs of everything in and out of scouting go up every year. In addition Corporate and community funding vary with the economy. You cannot ease up on funding and insure the growth and health of the program in the furure. As far as family FOS regardless of the out of pocket money I have spent on the unit I serve in I always suppot FOS because I was a scout and my son is a scout and I hope he will someday have a son that is a scout. I know what scouting has done for me, my family and my community. I understand the value that this program has een to the american society for nearly 100 years. I feel priviledged to help make sure it will be here for a hundred more. I think most tfamilies given the opportunity to learn how important their contribution is to the quality of the program their children get are happy to participate in FOS. 4)Actual that is not the job of a professional scouter. 5)I was in scouts as a youth for recreation. As an adult I travel, garden and play with computers for recreation. I am a scouter as a personal mission. My parents (scout leaders) taght us to believe that God has a personal mission for each person. Every mission in some way helps others to better appreciate the unique opportunity we have been given in this life as a creation of God. Two of my brothers are Police officers serving their community, my youngest brother is a teacher, my oldest brother and I are scout leaders. It is in our hearts a personal mission. I know there are other scouters who feel this way, and I know some, who like you, do it for recreation both are fine. Both are needed. But don't make the assumption that all volunteers look at scouting as something fun to do with their free time. To many scouters it is something far more personal. 6) I agree this is a family organization, and if there were more healthy family units there would be less need for the scouting program. We originated because of the need for boys to have positive role models that were not available or not existing at home. This is staill a big reason for the popularity and success of scouting. 7)I agree that meetings need to be well planned and the agenda followed. But the only meeting that the DE is responsible for is the Key-3 meeting. Everything else is the responsibility of volunteers. Remember that volunteers come from every walk of life and many have never been in a management or supervisory position outside of scouting. They do they best they caqn with the experience and trainin they have and the infrequent times they get to practice it as adults. 8)Remember again this is usually done by a volunteer. One of those folks you pointed out do this in their precious spare time. Webmaster is a very time consuming job and scouting events change constantly. It's a very tough assignment to take. 9)See the section on fundraising. Local scout shops have to buy supplies of National Distribution. A healthier financial status will help you have a better stocked store. 10)Agreed, but don't take no one at all and turn away someone who can be developed over time. If we never bring in inexperienced adults, the program will collapse when us old fogeys die away. Happy Scouting, Bob White

I don't think there should be more adult recognitions at a troop Court of Honor, but I have always made it a point to include one or two adult recognitions. It's important for that parents, committee members and adult leaders be recognized for their efforts. Scouts feel a sense of pride and common bond with a parent that gets praised for their work. Volunteers need an occassional public thank you to keep them motivated, Parents need to know that leaders take additional time to develop their scouting skills in order to give the scouts a better program. So go ahead and include the adults that help make your unit go they earned it and it's good for the future of the unit. Bob White

Everyone who understands that requirement #2 does not include the word commitment raise your right hand in the scout sign. Good! except for one it appears unanimous. Anyone who read any post in this thread saying that the scout should just be signed off and not have to fulfill requirement #2 drop your arm. GOOD! All hands still raised in the scout sign. So Ed what is your point, and is this hypothetical or not, you seem to flip flop back and forth. Bob White Sorry everyone, you can put your hands down now.

I have been involved with WB presentations in three councils. In each we left the where and when up to the recipient. We had a scripted ceremony that was followed. Like with the boys we sometimes presented the beads more than once to the same person. Rountables, Camporee campfires, WB dinners, District Dinners, Council Dinners, Troop Court of Honors, Blue and Gold Banquets, all were used for WB presentations.

jbroganjr brings up a very good question. Roundtable is supplemental training. For Roundtable to be effective the leaders first need a good foundation to build on. Have the leaders watched Fast Start? Have they attended New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and the Introduction to Outdoor Skills program yet? Roundtable attendance is a good idea and I even like to see Junior Leaders there, but is should not be used as the primary source to learn basic skills. Roundtable is a good place to gain practice, learn advanced techniques, keep up on program changes and get tips from other leaders and recharge your batteries. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As Eamonn and I pointed out the Training Knots are in the Training manual but not all the adult awards as was asked for in the initial post. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mia Culpa, The version I grabbed a look at on the internet looked like it had a flame. OGE raises a good point agout the gas exhaust. BW

With the release of the NEW Cub Leader manual late in 2000, the previously recommended method of two committees was changed to a combined committee. It caught me by surprise too. BW

DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!! You absolutely can not use a heater in a tent. In the scouting program any flame whether open or enclosed cannot be in any tent during a scouting activity. How we choose to endager our lives outside of scouting is up to us, BUT you cannot use any flame in a tent in scouting. READ THE GUIDE TO SAFE SCOUTING and the instructions to your tent. Bob White

Off the top of my head I don't know of one publication that carries them all. The reason is that they are not all related to the same program level or have the same purpose. Some awards are only related to Cubbing, Some Troop Scouting, Commissioner service, Reilion, Community service, reaternal organizations, Labor, Training etc. etc.. So what you will find are the awards that are related to your job in scouting will be in that particular Leader's manual. Awards related to training are in the appropriate leader manual and the training manual. Service awards are in the Advancemt Policies and Procedures manual and so on. Hope this answers your question. BW

What makes for a great district or council? My opinion is, in no particular order. 1. 100% of our volunteers trained and following the scouting program. 2. 100% unit participation in Friends of Scouting campaign. 3. Professional staff responsive to the program and support needs of the youth in the community. 4. District and council activities that are age appropriate and aimed at the interests of the youth not the adult voulnteers. 5. Financially responsible professionals and volunteers that are focused on the financial health of the council this year and 20 years down the road. 6. Key Troop and Pack volunteers that cooperate to see that 100% of Webelos spend at least one year in a troop. 7. No children are harmed. 8. All adult volunteers proudly wear a complete uniform. 9. Local Concil Camp facilities that would make any any scout say WOW! 10. A level of community service that makes the community talk in a positive way about scouting.