Bob White

I am all for junior leaders attenting Roundtable. I think it helps to provide supplemental training to the adults and the youth. The purpose of Roundtable is to provide the "will to do" and the "skill to do" good scouting within the troop. The more people that are trained and motivated the better the program the troop can offer. There should be nothing taking place or being discussed at roundtables that a youth should not be able to hear see or do at a troop meeting. Bob White

Chucklehead, A couple things that need to be clarified. We are not talking outr opinion we are talking the contents of the scouting program as developed over 90 years by the volunteers of the Boy Scouts of America and represented in the training and program resources of the BSA. Secondly the Eagle rank is not the goal of scouting. It is the highest achievable rank for a youth to achieve but nowhere in the scouting program is it represented as the goal. In fact the only advancement goal mentioned is First Class around the end of your first year. If Eagle were the goal then we haven't done to well. Currently the national average is 5% of scouts achieve Eagle and that is the highest average we have ever had in our history. And No, not everyone gets the same Board of Review, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Each board progresses according to the charactersistics brought to it by the individual eagle candidate. I realize that what you are doing is working for you, but I am concerned by the number of things you believe to be true about the scouting program that are greatly in error. Not in my opinion but in the program and policies of the BSA. I am especially concered by your thoughts on the purpose of scouting. Check your Handbook and see how much of what you have written is actually supported by the Handbook. The BSA handbook is not just a list of advancement requirements or a camping book. It has far more information on scouting than that. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

To answer your last question first the only way a troop, scout, or scouter could raise money in uniform for say the Red Cross would be if the National council of the BSA approved it. That's not to say you couldn't encourage your scouts to do the same thing as cicitizens and not as representatives of the BSA. The other alternative is do something other than fundraising. for instance during World War II Scouting was greatly involved in the Victory Gardens program and in promoting the purchase of War Bonds. They also did volunteer work for families whose mothers and fathers were involved in the war effort. I think giving aide to families and to children whose parents are overseas would be a greatly appreciated service. Bob W.

I think if I were in this position I would seek a meeting of the Cubmaster, Webelos Leader, Scoutmaster and parents to determine what was in the best interest of the boy. Perhaps a period of time in Webelos to better evaluate the scout's abilities and then place him in the program that would meet him at his present stage of development and help him to reach his potential. Which unit and program would best serve him will be largely dependent on the skills and comfort levels of the leaders who will be directly working with him. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

mk9750, I just wanted to make sure you understood that it was your choice and not something other people were forcing you to do, or saying you should do. It's OK to disagree with the uniform policy but understand that the policy exisited before you sewed that first patch on. I would bet that you chose to display your patches that way because you saw someone else do it and it looked cool (and I agree it does look cool). But that just exemplifies the power of 'setting the example'. The important thing is that whatever you do you don't do with anger or resentment, but because it was the ethical choice to make based on the Oath and Law. Are there worse things we can do wrong as leaders than have too many patches on our jacket? Of course there are. But scouts watch everything we do as leaders and so we need to be thoughtful of all our choices. Thanks for listening, Bob

I certainly did not want to sound like I was ripping on your SM. As you correctly point out alot of leaders do it that way. The debate that is wgaed here is that majority or plurality does not always make it right. You need to realize that part of the purpose of this board is to discuss that very point and to offer differing views as to what makes a good program. Bob White

I don't see where anyone has said you cannot wear your jackets mk9750 or petal_ms_scouter. We simply stated that the BSA has guidelines for certain uniform pieces and that the red wool BSA Jacket-shirt is one of those item. In my years is scouting I have never met a member of the ficticious uniform police. I have never witnessed anyone being told to change their uniform. The BSA relies on the integrity of each individual leader to follow the rules of the program just as I would hope you would expect scouts to follow all the rules of their troop and community, and not pick and choose which ones they personally like or dislike to follow or ignore as they please. It's a personal choice. Whether you hang up your jacket forever, change it to follow the uniform policies, or wear it as is, is up to you. The rules won't change no matter what you do, what is affected is the personal example you choose to set for other as a leader. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Lets look at the steps Chucklehead provided on how his troop runs and compare it to the method of operation taught in the Scoutmaster Handbook, the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook and other BSA training and program resources. Lines in italics are from Chucklehead's post, bold are scouting methods. I.Scoutmaster Scoutmaster A. tells SPL once to get job done Trains Junior Leaders, and learns the needs and characteristics of all youth members II. SPL SPL A. Gets jobs done that the Scoutmaster has designated Chairs the Patrol Leaders Council that determines Troop activities. b. Gets calls out to patrol leaders about important info Meets monthly with the elected Patrol Leaders (at the Patrol Leaders Council meeting) to review upcoming activities and coordinate patrol assignments with the patrol leaders, and to evaluate past activities to learn how to improve. C. runs meetings based on neede reqs and events that are approaching Oversees troop meetings and troop activity operations through the positive motivation of, and cooperation of, the Patrol Leaders who manage their own patrol. The Scoutmaster's role is not to tell the SPL what to do but to teach him the leadership skills needed to lead the patrol leaders. The elected patrol leaders as representatives of their patrols determine the activities and through their own choice support those decisions. The SPL is not the boss of the troop but more the mentor of the Patrol Leaders who are each responsible for mentoring their patrols. The Boy Scout program has never been about adults telling boys what to do but about training young people to make their own decisions and the opportunity to learn from those decisions. Let's keep in mind that Chucklehead is the scout and not the scoutmaster. He can only practice the kind of scouting that his Scoutmaster employs. Which has been a re-occurring theme in so many threads. Scouting is much more than just doing things in a scout uniform. It is doing things in the scouting methods to achieve the aims and mission of the program. I apologize if any of these posts have angered Chucklehead and wish him well as he approaches his Eagle Scout rank. Yours in Scouting, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

We can't, but your Charter Organization can. They will have the documentation you are being asked for, if they are a non-profit group such as a school, church, civic organization etc., . The bank wants to make sure this is a legitimate untaxable account and not someone sheltering money using a non-profits name. Also don't forget the BSA recommends two signatures on the checks. Bob White

Hi chucklehead, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. But you have to remember that you are seeing the program from a different vantage point. There are some things about the program that you have not yet learned or been exposed to. Let me try to explain. The patrol method is not mini troops. The patrol is a small natural size group for a boy to lead. Tthink about the number of friends you hang with. Most boys have 4 or 5 good friends, and theyy take turns leading depending on the situation. A troop is not divideed into patrols, Patrols gather to form troops. Baden-Powell said that the patrol method is not one way to run a troop it is the only way to run a troop. the patrol method is what allows everyone to have a specific responsibility and for elected patrol leaders to form a leader council to plan and carry out the scouts chosen activities. It is not the committee's job to plan the program and never has been. it is the committee's job to support the decisions of the patrol Leaders council. That has been what separates scouting from every other youth activity for the last 92 years. If you think about it the patrol method uses exactly the same amount of equipment as no patrols. It takes 12 two-man tents to haouse 24 scouts regardless of the number of patrols. 24 people need 24 plates any way you look at it. But the patrol method allows for scouts to elect leaders and lead scouts. Imagine the NFL trying to organize activities and games if there was just one big team instead of smaller groups. You said "Bob White:If OGE's troop was older would that automatically establish that it has a better program? Me: Yes it would because, that just shows its methods of doing things withstood the test of time. That might be true if it was always the same program and always the same leader. But it's not. In the decades your troop has existed it has had several leaders and each was different in addition the scouting program has evolved over time. The skills you learn today are not the skills that existed just a few years back. Even the ranks have changed. For years Eagle wasn't even a rank and Life Scout came before Star. So the only thing proven by a long lived troop is the committment of the charter organization and the scouting community to keep it the troop going. What is the goal of scouting. You said "to teach new skills and divide the CREAM OF THE CROP with the garbage I'm sorry but if that is what your leaders have lead you to believe then the program has failed you. The mission of scouting is to give young people the skills they need to make ethical decisions throughout their life based on the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law. The leaders on this thread have meant you no harm. Their concern is that every youth in scouting has the opportunity to experience a real scouting program. Their was no intent to upset you or insult your unit or leaders. Some of the things you wrote however sent up some red flags due to our experience. We genuinely want you to have a great scouting experience. Our frustration is not with you for not understanding or using the methods of scouting, but with adult leaders who do not help scouts understand and use them. A friend in Scouting, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just a quick reminder, Scout is not a Rank. Tenderfoot is the first rank, Scout Badge is presented to show that the boy has met the joining requirements. BW

Hi Chucklehead, Should OGE decide to answer your question I would like you to consider something as you judge his answer. Nowhere in the scouting program is the quality of a troop measured by its age or the number of Eagle Scouts that have passed through their door. Think about it. If OGE's troop was older would that automatically establish that it has a better program? If your troop was older would it? All tenure proves is your Chartered Organizations dedication to the use of the scouting program. The Eagle Award is a testament to the scout not necessarily the scout troop. So if not age and Eagles how is a scout program evaluated? By the use of the methods of scouting. Since everyone in your troop has been to training you will not need them to be listed here. I'm sure you remember that one that was stressed was the Patrol Method. As a scouting volunteer I have two concerns. The first that you enjoy your time in scouting and it sounds like you really do. I am very glad to hear that. My next, and equally important concern is that you received a true scouting experience, and I don't know how that can happen without the Patrol Method. Best Wishes, Bob White

I guess you have to ask the Big Picture question. Is the goal to model correct uniforming or be in identical garb. Since Woodbadge staff can be made of members from various programs just as the participants, I would think that correct uniforms were more important than identical uniforms. Since the jacket is an optional uniform piece I would not require it to be worn. BUT since it is a controlled uniform piece, I would require that anyone who wore it wear it correctly. My 2 cents, Bob White

SamEagle, No one has said that you cannot wear your uniform for a car wash (although there is probably more appropriate attire available). A car wash does not support a brand name and it returns a service for the money, so that would qualify to promote as a troop fundraiser. You could not however have a Turtle Wax carwash in uniform or using the scouting name, that would be a misuse of the BSA trademark as you do not have the authority to give scoutings approval to a brand name product or service. Just as you can have a pancake breakfast as a Scouting fundraiser but you could not have a Pillsbury Pancake breakfast. I hope this clarifies things, Bob White

Hi jamiemauro, In response to your original inquiry, "I really would like to know your opinen about someone not beliving in God but still wants to be a good boy scout." My opinion is they are welcome to their belief and to their wants. But that one does not entitle you to the other. You are free to choose whether or not you want to swim. But you cannot chhose to not swim and then want to be a lifeguard and expect it to happen. In scouting, you cannot choose to forgo your "duty to God" and also expect to be a member of the Boy Scouts. We believe that a acceptance and responsibility to a supreme power is required in order to form a complete oral foundation. I realize that some people do not accept the exisense of God by whatever name you choose to use. I understand a boy wanting to be in scouting. But they need to realize that scouting is more than wearing a uniform and going camping, hiking canoeing etc. It is an education system based on character, citizenship and fitness, and that character includes an active duty to God. Hope this helps you to explain why atheism and scouting have mutually excluding goals. A good question for you to pursue in your paper is why would an atheist want to be a member of a faith based organization, when as atheists they have chosen to reject the possibility of the existense of God? You don't see them wanting to join other religious based organizations. Bob White

The Red Wool Jack-shirt is an official uniform piece regulated by the uniform policies of the BSA. To find out which uniform pieces are controled and what the regulations are, you need to ferference the BSA Uniform Guide for 2002-2204. The manual is available at your local concil service center. Bob White

It's a typo scoutldr. If you look at page 15 in the description of the JASM it says that upon turning 18 he will be eligible to become an Assistant Scoutmaster. As stated in another post the only office that an 18to 20 year old can hold is ASM. All other adult positions require you to be at least 21 years of age. Bob White

Selling popcorn IS about money. How WE teach them to sell, and how WE explain to them why we sell it, will determine if they learn any values or not. BW

grogaardk, There are millions of eligible scouts and adult volunteers and there is a limited program area. Over 50,0000 participants will be at Jamboree 2005. That's the capacity of the area. It will make that army base one of the 10 largest cities in the state during that week. We would need a program area the size of Kansas City if it was open to everyone. There are still plenty of opportunities for your son to go, just sign him up with your council. National even offers every council some camperships (I think it's one per contigent troop) that pays the national fee (about $595) for scouts who need financial assistance. It's not that the program is not for everyone, but there are some real-life factors like geographic limits that have to be considered. Bob White

A friend of mine was one of the American volunteers selected to go to Russia to train the new Scout leaders. His stories are far to numerous to share here, but I will share one. The Russians biggest hurdle was to understand the concept of volunteerism. In fact they had no word in their vocabulary to express volunteerism. The thought of spending time and energy for the sole good of others was as foriegn to them as a dutch oven. (by the way it took them days to find a chicken and three fresh vegetables to cook.) When my friend left the oven behind as a gift it brought the new leaders to tears. Bob White

Ed Thanks for the clarification. As I said I didn't think it applied to scouts since it didn't apply to churches. Do the ADA laws only apply to government funded concerns? BW

"The simple fact is that you pay more for the product because there is a built-in additional mark-up - a donation - over and above the product suppliers profit margin, for funding of BSA and local unit activities. The cost of the popcorn is in reality the cost of the product (with profit margin for the supplier) + a donation to BSA + a donation to local unit." I think that is a genuine concern with many people Eagle74. But how does that differ from any other products by the time they get to the consumer? As the end user you pay for the cost of the raw material+profit, the cost of manufacturing+profit, the cost of distribution+profit, the cost of retailing+profit. Trails End is manufacturer, the council is the distributor, and the unit is the retailer. Heck a Bic pen that retails for $ .39 only costs Bic about .07. As you say profit is not a bad thing. As far as those who feel you are strong-arming family and friends, an easy solution is.... don't. There are lots of others out there who really enjoy the product and enjoy supporting the program, perhaps sell to them. The main point I wanted to make is that it is important that we give a product or service in return during our fundraising efforts. BW

Bob White, once again you misrepresent my post in order to prove your point. Powerful words Zahnada, but grossly misdirected. My posts in this thread responded first to kwc57, then to nldscout, then Eagle74. So until now I have not commented on a post from you in this thread. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not believe that ADA covers having interpreters. A church for instance is not mandated to provide sign language interpreters for their activities, but some do as a service to their congregation. ADA requires that structural accomodations be met and that special needs resources be allowed to be used, but it does not mandate that the resources be provided. A good example would be if a corporation has a sight impaired employee, they must allow the individual to use their guide dog but they are not required to supply the guide dog. The camp must allow the use of the interpreter but they are not required by law to supply the interpreter. I would hope however knowing the needs of these scouts the council would exhaust their community resources looking for a couple volunteer interpreters. Bob White

Millions of customers have no problem with Boy Scout Popcorn Eagle74, why do you? It is a quality product, it has reusable canisters, and people buying it knowing full well that the scouting program benefits from the product. Do you have a problem with Girl Scout cookies? Bought any bottled water lately? Talk about a huge markup! It is no coincidence that Evian is naive spelled backwards. Did you know that most furniture has a 400% mark-up. Scouting popcorn is what funds the entire annual program for most units. The scouts work for their prizes and money, and the public gets a quality product. I see nothing wrong here. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)