Bob White

Wouldn't it be more prudent and more tactfull if the nominator did not reveal the nomination to the potential recipient until AFTER the recognition was approved? Let the nominator break the bad news if they chose to spill the beans ahead of time. I do not see how this is "the council's" responsibility. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Whether the parents or the committee or the sub committees is of no matter. Nowhere does the program instruct or support the conmmitee members being elected. If it does then share with us where you find it. The committee is selected and approved by two of three people, and nothing in the BSA program says anything else. While the committee or others can "suggest" whatever they want they have no authority. Only the IH CR and CC do. While I understand you "feel" differently you have no evidence that the BSA program says anything different that what I have posted. Lynn's unit would serve the scouts best by learning what the BSA supports and following that rather than the hearsay of other units whose success and quality of program are totally unkown to them. Why any scout leader would object to having units follow the Scouting program is a mystery. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Isn't whether or not he is effective or capable of doing these jobs a decision for the folks who supervise those positions to make and no one else? I am not saying that it's a good idea to have so many hats on one hat rack, but why worry about him if he is not yours to supervise? Every job he has was given to him by another operson who supervises that position, if they don't have a problem with him then why would another volunteer worry about it. No one is forced have to deal with him. You do not have to be in the unit he is in, you do not have to be on any of his committees. It seems a lot of the conflicts at the unit and Council/district levels comes from folks worrying more about other peoples job performance rather than just their own. I am not suggesting that vcrew66 isn't doing his or her job, only that they worry too much about this other fellow when that is not vcrew66's job responsibility.

I don't think anyone or anything in the process suggests you are not doing a good job, only that you might not yet be meeting the requirements.

If he is a CR and CC let the Institutional Head worry about him. If he is a District Commissioner let the Council Commissioner worry about him. If he is a district committee member then let the District Chairman worry about him. Join a unit that he is not in and then even with all his positions he would have no authority over you at all and you can focus on what your responsibilities are and forget about him.

There could be another reason as well. Here are the requirements, 1. Be a currently registered Scoutmaster who has served in that position for at least 18 months. 2. Have achieved the Quality Unit Award at least once during the period of service. 3. Have completed Boy Scout Leader Fast Start Orientation, New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. 4. Have a record of proper use of the Boy Scout advancement program, resulting in a majority of Boy Scouts in the troop attaining the First Class rank. 5. Have a record of Development of youth leadership through the patrol method Positive relations with the troops chartered organization An extensive outdoor program including strong summer camp attendance A positive image of Scouting in the community A troop operation that attracts and retains Boy Scouts As you se some of the requirements are objects and some are subjective. If the local Scout executive or council commissioner feel that you have not met the requirements in section 5 then you r appication will likelly not be sent to NESA..

Beavah, I do not understand why you cannot discuss something without needing to twist other peoples words around. This is not a problem caused by the adults in the troop not understanding the program of the charter organization. This is about the adults not understanding how the scouting program is structured. Lynns questions is Do troop committee's hold an election every year and get to vote for the person that they feel would be the best for the position? asks the wrong question. What other units do is not important. What other units whose program quality is unknown to you is even more unimportant. Whats important Is what troops should do in order to deliver a quality Scouting program. The closer you follow the BSA program the better the program you will have, Nowhere does the BSA program recommend or support parents electing ANY committee position. If they did where is the evidence. We kind find in several references where the committee members are selected, approved, and assigned responsibilities by the IH the CR and the CC. The parents of the Scouts are not given the responsibility or authority to select or approve ANY adult member of the unit by any element of the BSA program. Thats no accident. The parents are the consumers of the program, not the owners of it. As consumers they are welcome to give feedback on their likes and dislikes, but it is not their unit to control. They have the powers of a consumer. If they do not like the product they can choice to use another. But as the consumer they do not get to choose the employees or assign them duties. The unit is owned and operated by the Charter Organization, not the parents. This should not be about operating the unit Beavahs way, or Lynns way, or my way. It should be about following the Scouting program. And the program does not support the election of committee members. If anyone can find any BSA reference that supports electing committee members then I urge them to produce it. Otherwise I urge Lynn to encourage the adults in the troop to learn and follow the BSA program.

Perhaps if that was the basis for how units, districts and councils selected volunteers the we would have that kind of a volunteer population in youthe programs. But it's not. You need to realize that with 1.2 million adult voliunters you will get people from all walks of life, with a wide variety of characteristics. Not every one is motivated the same way, not everyone will have the same need or desire for recognition. Why people want or don't want recognition is unrelated to why others give recognition. Recognitions are usually given for very positive reasons. Because of that fact alone there is no reason to view and accept them in a positive manner. Just as some scouts will try to achieve so will some adults. That in itself is not a bad thing. It is only when the reward becomes more important than the actions that earn it does a person cross the line of mature behavior, and acts more like a child seeking attention just for attentions sake. It's been my experience that a very small percentage of scouters act in that manner.

It would indeed be nice if all adults would do that, unfortunately that is not always the case. That is why "obedient" is another part of the law to keep in mind. Rather than dong what one person or another says is right, just follow the rules. Rules and procedures are great equalizers. They help bring structure to situations such as this, and they keep the decision making from being based on personal opinion and instead allows everyone to follow a single objective source of authority and expertise. In a Scoutng situation, that authority is the policies and procedures of the BSA programs.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Since when did I become the topic of the thread, and what exactly did I ever say to or about you or any of your posts Rhythos that would cause to to join in the sophomoric feeding frensy of personal attacks toward me?

You are correct that it is a NESA recognition, and it does not mention concurrent ledership at all. The nomination actually comes from the troop committee chairperson, on behalf of the troop committee and PLC.

The Sea Scout Bronze award can be earned by any Venturer, It has the same requirements as a the rank of Ordinary.

update: I had to redo my six. It turns out the Arrow of Light is not worn on the Sea Scout uniform. The only Scout Ranks you can represent as knots on the Sea Scout uniofrm is Eagle, Quartermaster. So the 6 that I chose to wear on my dress uniforms are: Scoutermasters Key (could wear three devices but I don't use them) District Award of Merit (one) Silver Beaver Distinguished Commissioner Venturing Leadership Award W.D Boyce Unit Organizer

A leader can finish under whatever progress card he or she began with as long as they can complete all the requiremennts on the card.

Hi BadenP Perhaps at the council that once employed you that would be true. But as someone who used to be a professional for almost 5 years you must know that not all councils follow the same procedures. According to the BSA application form two signatures are required for every adul;t application. I can tell you from my 'brief' experience as a unit, district and council volunteer that in the councils I have lived in the only exception was CR whose application only requires the IH's signature. When the CR is also the Committee Chair then the IH and CR sign the other applications for all other adults. Following the correct application approval process is one of the safeguards in the BSA youth Protection program, but as someone who was a professional for almost 5 years you already know that I'm sure.

My mistake, The Rank Patch would be worn on the Venturing Youth Uniform, the knot or medal on the Sea SCout Uniform

Nothing in the isignia guide designates how the uniform element must be attached. The only caution is that the uniform should be neat in appearance.

Your pleas must have moved them, for while they must still attend Ship activities, the new revised Adcvancement Committee Policies and Procedures now says that a Venturer can earn the QM Award.

It wouldn't.

In Sea Scouts there is an actual attendance percentage that a Sea Scout must meet to advance, This is not the case in Boy Scouting. The easist way to measue this activity in Boy Scouting is by the use of the Troop Leadership traioing program. Each scout recieves a job description card during the training,. By the end of the training he has had a personal conference with either the adult or an older scoutwho will be his coach and memntor. Together they determine 3 golals that the scout will accomplish while in office, and they document them on the back of the job description card. The Scout now has a written plan for completing this requirement and specific measuarable goals to meet to show that he has served actively in the unit. There is a reason that the BSa provides these tools in the program for you to use. The more you follow the program, the easier the program is to lead.

My point of non-issue was addressing some posters concerns that scouts working on Boy Scout Ranks in crew or Ships was in some way a burden on the program, or gave more attention to male than female scouts and that is just not true. In the unit I serve every dual registered scout has finished or is finishing their Eagle through the Ship. (We have way cooler ceremonies than the troops). Not that it matters to us. We just encourage the scouts to work on their goals and leave the choice to them as to what they wwant to do. We would celbrate their achievement just the same way whether they finished throuth the Ship or the Troop.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Brian As a Commissioner, what do you see as the real problem here? What is your understanding of the purpose of Den Chiefs? What is the benefit to a Pack and what is the benefit to a Troop. When you say "they meet the same night as the Protestant Troop" who are "they"? BW

"If they were youth members in the BSA (Venture??), they of course would wear their Eagle Badges." If they were 18 and 19 they could not have been Boy Scout Youth, they are too old and should wear the knot or medal. If they are Venturers they would wear the knot or medal. The same for Sea Scouts. The patch is for Youth Boy Scouts Only.

"Yah, da problem with the "one big program" notion is the contradictions, eh? Venturers cannot earn Sea Scout Quartermaster, so why should Sea Scouts be allowed to earn Venturing Ranger (or any of the other specialty Venturing unit awards)? They are different programs. And what's sauce for da goose.... The problem with that is that you are incorrect in your premise. Venturers can indeed earn the Quartermaster Award. Similarly, Boy Scouts are not allowed to continue working on Arrow of Light until they graduate from 5th grade or turn 11.5. Once a boy joins a Boy Scout troop, Cub Scout advancement to Cub Scouting's capstone award is closed off. So if Boy Scouts are not allowed to earn the Arrow of Light, why should Venturers and Sea Scouts be allowed to earn Eagle? They are different programs. A Boy Scout earns the Scout Badge which has the same requirements as the AOL. It's an extremely small number of Cubs who go on to Boy Scouts without the AOL having been earned, so it is not something that effects many scouts. There is nothing a crew or ship has to alter in their program for the scout to earn Eagle. Remember that he has First Class Before he joins Venturing. So the majoity of work that is left is merit badges and they are done outside of the unit activities. All he really does in the crew or ship is his leaderhip time and that doesn't negatively effect the units service to other and it doesn't keep females in the unit from having an equal amount of participation. Anyone who has dealt with this at a crew or ship level understands what a non-issue this is. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The fact that the CR can choose to be the CC does not change any of the facts, the Committee members still have no authority in the matter and voting for the CC is stiil not a power of the committee, The CR selects the Committee chair and can even pick themselves for that position. Certainly after almost 5 years of having once been a professional scouter you are aware of who signs adult appications?