Bob White

I know of nothing in the BSA that would prohibit such a fundraiser. I think it would depend largely on the community you lived in. For instance I would not be the least bit surprised if a council in the Napa Valley of California were to hold such an event, but would be very surprised to find it being done in Salt Lake City. Would I support such an activity where I live, probably not, but I try not to impose my personal choices on those in other communities without more information. BW

Whoa! Not all activities that the BSA restricts troops from using are illegal. Raffles in some states are a legal activities. The BSA does not say that raffles are inappropriate activities for others, just that the BSA does not want them used by troops in scouting's name. That does not make them illegal. Legality is determined by state and local laws not the BSA. A troop cannot sponsor a BINGO game, But several churches that sponsor scout groups use Bingo as a fund raiser. If that church gives money to the troop how in the world you you be able to determine which fundraiser that money came from and why would it matter? If you knew your neighbor went to Vegas to gamble once a year would you refuse to sell him popcorn because that money may have come from gambling? The BSA does not have the authority or the interest to tell others how to raise or spend money. Their only interest in this area is controlling how the image and name of the BSA is used for fundraising. In Upstate NY scouts in uniform pick up litter and soda cans at Saratoga Race Track, the oldest thouroughbred horse track in the country and a mainstay of the community as well as a National Historic Site. In return the track pays the various scout groups based on the amount of trash collected. Guess where the track gets that money? From thousands of people gambling. How many of you live in states that subsidize the education budget with money raised in the State Lottery. Ill gotten gains you say? Tainted by gambling is it? Then give it back and pay more in property taxes instead. Let's not be so quick to say all gambling is illegal, it's not. Whether it is moral is a personal decision. The BSA only says thet troops cannot gamble (among other activities) to raise money, not that gambling is illegal. Bob White

twin wasp The BSA DOES recognize a troop t-shirt, and allows it either as a non-uniform piece (t-shirt and shorts or jeans) or as an activity uniform piece Troop t-shirt, scout pants or scout shorts, scout belt scout socks). The field uniform comes in many varieties depending on the preferences and accomplishments of the individual. A scout who correctly displays his scout badge on his uniform shirt, with scout pants or scout shorts, scout belt and scout socks is as correctly uniformed as a Life Scout with OA flap, merit badge sash, neckerchief, Senior Patrol Leader patch, with scout pants or scout shorts, scout belt and scout socks. And both are better uniformed Than an Eagle Scout in Scout uniform shirt, Merit Badge Sash and jeans. The BSA does not regulate how much you wear, only that it is worn correctly. Scouting does not require a scout to be in uniform at all times. In fact scout leader training states that there are perfectly legitimate times to be out of uniform. What is recommended is that a scout wear as complete and correct a uniform as he has, and that the unit NOT set artificial uniform guidelines that it has no authority over. The goal should always be a complete uniform and for a troop to make artificial rules such as "we don't require scout pants" is not within the authority of the unit. Only the BSA can determine the uniform of the Boy Scouts of America. The troop can determine whatever out of uniform fashion they want. Bottom line, Jarks concern about lax uniforming on ouytings and use of a jackhammer. Can the boys decide to not wear scout uniforms on campouts? yes nowhere does the program require that scouts wweaqr uniforms to camp. Can a scout operate a jack hammer? Yes, the BSa does not prohibit the scouts who have proper training and wearing appropriate safety equipment from using this tool. The troop leadership from the information Jark has shared does not seem to have done anything wrong. Jark should have checked the rules before he complained. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Contact your Scouting headquarters at 0040-744-875-462

Not at all packsaddle. This is a matter of trademark protection that's all. If you worked for Ford Motor Company you could not go out in Ford apparel saying you were raising money as a Ford employee for a Ford project unless you had Ford's permission. Being a member of the BSA does not give you the authority to use the image and symbols of the BSA any old way you please. The BSA has no authority over other organizations. If the local Moose lodge holds a dance-a-thon and afterwards gives some the proceeds to a local scout unit that's fine. The fact that a scout unit cannot do one bar the Moose from doing so. Nor does it make their donation tainted in any way. The BSA is just protecting their image and property by limiting how it can be used in public. This extends well beyond the financial field. You cannot for instance wear the uniform while campaigning for a specific candidate running for office or a specific politaical party. To do so would suggest that the BSA endorses that candidate. You can however wear the uniform if passing out flyers urging citizens to exercise they obligation to vote in an election. This is not anything like don't ask don't tell. This is "You don't own it, so you can't use it anyway you want to." Bob White

Although I agree your quote came from the G2SS it is specific in its coverage. Chainsaws and mechanical log splitters may be authorized for use only by trained individuals over the age of 18, using proper protective gear in accordance with local laws. Even Webelos scouts use powered tools in their advancement program. The key is that all applicable laws be followed, that proper training be given prior to use, That all applicable safety devices and personal protection equipment be used and adult supervision be present. My son started using power tools in 7th grade at school with less supervision then he gets when scouting. If you use good leadership skills and follow the rules you do not need to worry about liability. It's poor leadership that causes accidents and injuries, let the basd leaders worry. Bob White

KNOT TRIVIA FROM THE MOVIES In the original film JAWS, Robert Shaw as the skipper of the Orca throws Richard Dreyfuss a length of line and barks at him to tie a Sheepshank knot. Dreyfuss ties the knot and throws it back to Shaw who looks at it and grudgingly accepts it. The problem? Dreyfuss did not tie a Sheepshank. What knot did he tie? Get those VCRs rolling and let us know what you see. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Boy scouts are allowed to operate liquid fuel stoves providing the youth and the adult leaders follow the regulations regarding the use of these appliances as stated in the Guide to Safe Scouting. In addition the property you are operating the appliance on must allow liquid fuel uasage. As far as the liability issue, it does not require a lawyer to explain the BSA policy. If a any registered adult knowing allows the policies of the G2SS to be ignored, they can have their BSA membership permanently revoked and be subject to criminal and civil charges as a result of any injuries resulting from the improper activity. The adult would not have the benefit of the legal protection from the BSA and would not receive the benefits of the national adult leader liability protection coverage. Any youth injured would however be covered by the youth accident insurance protection. (not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn) Bob White

And there are many other fundraisers that a charter organizations and any other organization can do, none of which are controlled by the BSA, UNLESS whoever is raising the money represents themselves as raising the money using the trade mark emblems of the BSA. I have sold raffle tickets for my son's school without wearing my scout uniform and the fact that I am a scouter is not relevant to the fundraising. Other non-scouters took part in the fund raiser as well. The raffle was just part of the over all event non of which had anything to do with scouts but had scouts and scouters involed as members of the school. The PTO that sponsored the event gave some funds that year to the pack. was that money raised in the raffle? Maybe, but who can tell it all went into one pot. was it raised using scouting's name or emblems? No, did scouting care the event took place? No. Should we have refused the money from our charter organization? Of course not. Bob White

Teaching an adult leader how to use liquid fuel CAN'T be more dangerous than handing a teenager a loaded weapon! Which adult, which teenager. If that adult causes a fire on property where the use of liquid fuels is prohibited then the loss caused by that fire would not be insured and could cause be financially devastating to the council. If the section on liquid fuels is being taught as part of a scout leader training session then the staff needs to adapt the same way a troop would if they wanted to teach a scout how to use a liquid fuel stove (as required in the advancement program). That is, they need to be on property where the use of fuel is allowed, or only do as much of the training as the conditions allow and then complete the training on property that allows the use of liquid fuels. This is not an issue of council property, it is an issue of following the rules for whatever property you are on. Not all scout camps have this restriction and not all properties that have this restriction are scout camps. Bob White

One of the best residual benefits of scouting is that it promotes learning in allits forms. We should not care if a Cub or Boy Scout learns at a scout activity, home, school, or where ever. what is important is that he learns and that he receives positive reinforcement for learning so that he is motivated to learn more. There is nothing in the scouting program that prohibits activities done outside of the den or pack activities from being accepted for advancement, providing it meets the requirement criteria written in the boy's handbook. Be careful not to confuse personal opinions with scouting methods. Bob White

No Ed, The BSA does not prohibit the Chartered Organization from using raffles. If an individual sells raffles for the charter organization and the organization gives the money to it's youth organization(s) then the BSA has no problem with that. What you cannot do is imply that the BSA is supporting the raffle. The BSA does not prohibit you as an individual from selling raffle tickets. It prohibits scout units, and scout members from using the name and images of scouting when selling raffle tickets. There is a big difference. By the way when someone asks where the money came from you tell them the truth "it was given to us by the Charter Organization." Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Uniforms I understand where twin wasp is coming from in his explaination of 4 levels of the scout uniform, unfortunately it is not supported in any resource or training of the BSA. In the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs there are two conditions of uniforming; in uniform, and out of uniform. There are three uniforms; the field uniform, the activity uniform, and the dress uniform. Class A's and B's are remnants of military terms and are not used in any official way by the BSA. The option offered of a troop shirt is not a uniform, it is simply wearing a troop shirt. Wearing it with scout pants or shorts, scout belt and scout socks would make it a BSA activity uniform. Just as wearing a scout shirt with blue jeans is no closer to being in the scout uniform than wearing a western style shirt and scout pants would be. The scout uniform is not just the shirt you wear. Power Tools Just as military terms and misconceptions have worked their way into scouting so have terms and misconceptions from other governmental agencies. Power tool rules is a good example. There are all kinds of jack hammers and many scouts, with proper training and wearing the appropriate personal protection equipment (PPEs), would be perfectly capable to operate. As pointed out there are very few tools that scouts are prohited to use. So where did this idea that you had to be 18 come from? The business community, specifically OSHA and State Child Labor Laws. The thing to remember is that those rules do not apply to any non-employees. They are there to prohibit and punish abuse by employers. You could not operate a troop and follow OSHA guidelines or the Child Labor Laws. You cannot operate scouting by the concepts of other organizations. We are different, and for scouts to get the most out of the program it is important that leaders attend training, read the program resources and understand those differences. White finger or HAVS as it is called today (Hand Arm Vibration Syndrome) is a result of operating vibrating tools on a regular basis and almost always takes years of exposure to contract. The other injuries mentioned can be easily avoided by proper training and operation while wearing the recommended PPEs. Hope this helps, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

packsaddle to say that the rule is bad because there is always someone who will ignore it is what separates good people from bad. Certainly you do not suggest that making it illegal to steal or kill is pointless because there are always those who will do it anyway? Civilized sosciety is build on those that follow the rules whether they agree with them or not simply because they benit the welfare of those around us if not us directly. The rule on liquid fuel is made not by the council but by the insurance company, it is publicized and enforced by the council. YES, national will remove the liability protection from leaders who ignore a policy that then results in an injury. BW

Here is another way to look at a couple of the frustrations raised in these discussions. First the easy one, use of liquid fuels on BSA council properties. Just as some campgrounds prohibit the use of liquid fuels so do some council properties. Why does it vary from council to council? Because each council is a separate corporate entity and is responsible for their individual property management and insurance protection. The ban against liquid fuels is generated by the conditions of the property insurance carrier. There are strict guideleines for the storage of liquid fuels and most scout units do not follow them. In order to insure the council properties and satisfy the insuarance provider those councils have no choice but to prohibit the use of liquid fuels. Uniforms. OGE correctly states that the uniform is a method of scouting but not a requirement of scouting. But that is true of every method of our program. Scouts are not required to elect leaders or face punishment. They are not required to to use the patrol method or facce punishment, they are not required to go outdoors or face punishment. The methods of scouting are not about what the boy is supposed to do, they are about the tools we as adults are supposed to use to reach the aims, and achieve the methods of the scouting program. We are supposed to encourage, inspire and motivate the scout into the wearing of the uniform because it helps promote the aims of the program. The uniform develops a sense of belonging to a community (citizenship), it allows people to see past personal prejudice based on income, age, fashion, etc and see a fellow scout (character). The uniform correctly worn gives a scout a personal sense of accomplishment and self-worth (mental fitness). It develops a sense of personal image and good groomong (physical fitness). So you see wearing the uniform, and wearing it correctly, needs to be a personal choice not a mandate. It reflects the youth's (and the adult's)ability to make an ethical decision based on the the scout law (trustworthy, loyal, obedient, clean). It is not about looking like a scout, it is about living like a scout. By the way the advancement policy does state that a scout appearing for a Board of Reveiw should wear as complete a uniform as he can. Hope this helps to bring a new vantage point to this. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just be sure that the troop and the BSA are not mentioned in the advertising, promotion or sale of the raffle tickets. That would be a violation of the fundraising policies. Bob White

Insurance BSA Youth accident insurance is very simple in coverage. A scout receives the benefits of the policy if he is injured during actvivities that he is participating in as a scout. There are no exceptions based on the appropriateness of the activity, that is the responsibility of the adults who are leading the activity. If the activity is not monitored and managed in accordance with the policies and procedures as published by the BSA then the adult will lose the protection of the BSA liability protection and be exposed to possible losses through civil suits leveled by the families of the injured parties or by the scouting organization. Uniforms You will find the best description of the various official uniforms in the BSA's insignia Guide. It is available at you local council service center. BW

I agree that practice is a big factor. There are different ways to practice knots from the "here tie a bowlinr for me" to "you need to hang a bear bag using these lines, have at it" the latter being my favorite. Too often I see scout activities being dry and lacking in challenge or adventure. I continually see that the scouts learn more from a practice or testing experience that requires them to put the skill to use in a practical application. my 2 cents, BW

imascouter, Your original post actual refers to two myths one is that you must wear a Class A uniform when traveling, and two that there is somrthing in Boy Scouting called a Class A uniform (a term which does not exist in the official resources of the BSA. Nowhere does the BSA require that a scout be in uniform to be covered by the BSA supplied accident insurance. The uniforms of the BSa include the Field uniform, the Activity uniform, and the dress uniform. No A, B, or C uniform is described or identified by the BSA. Hope this helps, Bob White

The patrol method is designed to make use of the natural needs and characteristics of boys. It is natural for a boy to have 4 to 5 good friends, hence the size of a patrol. It is natural for boys to want to associate with others of their own age and interests, that's where the patrol make up comes from. Those 18 new scouts should be 3 Patrols each with an elected patrol leader that rotates monthly and an older Troop Guide. At least one Assistant Scoutmaster needs to oversee the New Scout patrol program, preferably with one ASM for each patrol. Scouts need to choose their own patrols and patrol leaders. Who chose your friends when you were their age? Who decided who the dominant person in the group would be? The patrol method works best when adults do the least. Let the boys choose the group, the group identity, the group leader, the group interests. The role of the adult is to train the elected leader in two things; 1. how to get the job done and 2. how to keep the group together. Be careful not to confuse boy lead, with scout mastering. When an adult masters the methods of scouting by subtly training and developing boys to exercise leadership skills the boys will be able to look back at your leadership and say "I did myself". Let the boys choose. Use the methods of scouting found in the Scout Handbook, Scoutmasters Handbook and at leadership training. You can't go wrong folowing the program. Bob White

Actually, I think the "see ya later" method although allowed is not the easy way. It leaves a lot of rumors and innuendo in its wake. A better way (an easier way if you will) is for the COR to have a quiet face to face meeting and explain what the conflicting behaviour is, what the required behaviour is, and ask for cooperation from the individual or individuals to perpetuate change to resolve the problem. If the person or persons refuse to behave as requested then they have basically resigned. You save them alot of anxiety, and the scout unit a lot of discord. Good Luck, Bob White

Applications for Jamboree staff are now available at http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/forms.html Bob White

Question Mk950, How can the SPL and ASPL who lead the Patrol Leaders be in a Patrol being lead by someone they lead? Bob White

Actually the BSA program uses an age/ability based patrol method. New Scout Patrols- beginning skill and abilility level- under First Class- normally under 12 years old and under- under joint leadership of elected peer scout, experienced assigned scout, and single adult leader supervision. Experienced Patrols- Moderate to experienced skills- 11 1/2 years to 13 years of age- Elected peer scout leadership-elected Senior Patrol Leader supervision, Venture Scout Patrol- 13 to 18 years old- experienced scout-elected peer scout leadership, elected Senior Patrol Leader supervision, Adult leader supervision. These peer patrols are grouped by general age and ability level. Each patrol type has unique program features that take into consideration skill levels and learning goals. Bob White

The Pastor of the church is also the troop Chaplain has completed basic scout leader training and wears a complete uniform. BW