Bob White

Hi Greyfox, I would agree that wearing one jacket patch from a High Adventure Base on the back of the Red Jac-shirt would seem to be in the spirit if not the letter of the rule. Mainly because the Philmont High adventure patch is approved and on a later age it says the Florida High Adventure Base Conch-shell patch is approved. As far as how to approach repairing past uniform misunderstandings use your resources. "Hey, I just found out there is a manual for proper uniforming called the Insignia Guide 2002-2004. This has some interesting stuff in it. Did you know that........." Hope this helps, Bob

$210 in our council. Still cheap at four times the price. If you have ever taken a corporate management course you may know that it is not unusual for it to cost over $200 each day not including lodging and food. Remember this is not a money maker for council or national. We pay a copyright fee to the main author (Ken Blanchard author of the One-Minute Manager series) for every manual and every person that takes the course. But once you remove the cost of facilities, food and equipment you will see that it is only a few dollars per person. Prices vary by council due to local costs of food and facilities. But as it was pointed out, for as much as participants pay, the staff pays even more, and happily for the pleasure of sharing the program with others. BW

This is a good example of when to bring in your local DE for assistance. As long as he or she understands the membership requirement let tham run interference for you. Bob

Got to agree with OGE, how busy a MB counselor wants to be is his or her own choice. Just to clarify a point another poster made, MBC lists are kept by Council and District but all adult volunteers including MBCs are registered with the National office. Nothing wrong with troops having multiple counselors available to them on a single topic. Some may only have time to help scouts in their own unit, some may be willing to serve other units as well. some might only be available during certain seasons or have limited availability , so having some choices for the scouts is a good thing. Bob White

Mike, The program is Council specific to allow the program to be customized to reflect the appropriate stae and local laws and local council contact information. You will need to contact your local council to see if they have theoir version on line yet. At the end of the training an email with your test score is sent to the local council contact (PART OF THE PERSONALIZATION REQUIRED) and you are send a pocket certificate to record your completion. So you would not be able to use 'overtrained's' link since it is only applicable to scouters in his council. Bob

Silver-shark The chartered organizition is not a branch of the unit and is not refered to as one in any portion of scouting. The policy is how a unit or council can raise money while affiliating itself with scouting. the BSA has no authority to set fundraising rules for non-scout units. The rule we have discussed, or tried to discuss through this entire string does not reach beyond two entities, the Council and the Unit. It is not binding on the charter organization or any other group although you continually try to make such connection. Bob White

The differnece being that the restaurant that franchises the Mcdonalds food franchise is exclusive to the Mcdonalds business. A charter organization does, and is, alot of other things that are tatally sparate of scouting. And THAT is the point of the policy. As long as you keep Scouting separate then the rules of scouting do not apply. They apply only to the scout unit functions. So no, Troop 50 sponsored by 1st Presbyterian Church cannot raffle a computer for a fundraiser using the name and uniforms of the BSA. But 1st Presbyterian church can raffle a computer and use the proceeds to fund their youth programs including thier scout Troop as long as they do not mention scouting in the advertising or sales of the ticket sales. That may not sit well with you personally silver-shark, but it is consistent with the fundraising and trademark policies of the BSA. Bob White

Silver-shark, If you were responding to the original post may I point out it was not even a Boy Scout activity so my guess is there were no Boy Scouts present. One of the reasons we are able to provide scouting on the unit level is because of the major fundraising done at the district and council level. I can tell you exactly what happens at these events. Business leaders reminisce about their days as scouts and about the fun their kids are having in scouts and they write big donations to the council. And you should be grateful that they do. You would do well to climb of the horse named 'holier than thou' and realize that for scouting to succeed it takes adults at all levels of scouting and they all have the good of the boys at heart. And yes it is a youth organization but while the youth are in school, doing homework and in bed asleep there are thousands of District, Council and National volunteers and professionals working to keep the scouting movement growing and financially feasible. Just because you are not familiar with how that happens does not give you the right to decide that what you do is any more important or morally righteous than what they do. Good Night, Bob White

Whoever said scouts would be present? I don't know how much experience you have in major fundraising for Scout Councils silver-shark but it is obviously limited. There are a number of corporate fundraising activities that go on all the time to support scouting that do not have youth present. Some do not even involve unit volunteers. Without these events most councils would not be able to deliver anything near the current level of scouting they presently offer. A council with a healthy financial plan uses a mix of fundraising tools to achieve its goals. Some are completely youth oriented such as Popcorn sales. Some events are adult youth mixed and some are all professional adults. You seem to be viewing fundraising through a very narrow vision. Bob White

Again you misrepresent the rule silver-shark. The aims and methods are not even referenced in this policy. Yes, the ideals are specified but not in relation to the stigma of gambling but in the second qualification that the event be in keeping with the mission, and ideals of the BSA. To clarify it for you, the ideals of scouting refers to the Oath, Law, Slogan and Motto. Any scouting event should be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, Etc., it should develop duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to Self. It should require the participants to be prepared. It should help develop critical decision making based on the Oath and Law. But that's only if it is a SCOUTING event. Now keep in mind this rule is specifically for Scout Units and Councils planning a fundraising event. This rule has NO authority over any other organization. You keep trying to force this rule onto outside organizations. A PTO is not required to follow the rules of scouting if it is not using scoutings name or image. And it is not required to have followed these rules in order to give money to it's scout unit. This policy is only about the use of the name and image of the BSA. I don't understand why this is so difficult to keep in perspective. The phrase that "unit events should be free from the stigma of gambling" means that in no way should it appear or be inferred that the BSA is doing the gambling. It does not mean that a churches womens group can not hold a raffle in their own name and donate the proceeds to whoever they want afterwards. They just can't use the name of the BSA, the scout unit or scouting in promoting the event. And again you have misrepresented the facts because the Troop Committee Guidebook does indeed refer to the Charter Organization giving financial support to the unit. It is not called a donation because it is the charter organization's unit. They are not donating to themselves, they are funding their own program. I have no problem with you turning away whatever donation you want. That is a choice for each unit to make. But you misrepresent the policies of the BSA when you say that scout units cannot accept money raised by outside organizations depending on how it was raised. Bob White

Always good to welcome another Bobwhite into the world. Congrats! Bob White

This is a fairly well known typo. A scoutmaster must be at least 21 years of age, an Asst. Sm. must be at least 18 years of age. BW

packsadlle, As I have explained numerous times this is a property management issue not a scout activity issue. It does not exist in all councils, only those whose insurance coverage does not allow the storage and use of liquid fuels. The BSA regulates the use of liquid and pressurized gas fuels and fuel burning appliances by scouts but does not prohibit their use as long as all the safety rules are followed and you use them in an appropriate location. Any campground, whether owned by a scout council or not, thatprohibits liquid fuels is not an appropriate location for scout members to use this type of fuel or appliance.

Ed just wondering...do you ever go back and read your own posts and feel profoundly embarrassed? Bob White

That is correct and it is what everyone has said on the subject of the unit holding a raffle. But you and silver-shark have expanded that to include organizations outside of scouting. The BSA does not attempt to regulate the legal activities of other organizations and if a group that does not affiliate the raffle with scouting wants to donate money from it to the Scouts the BSA does not prohibit or even discourage it. You are welcome to choose not to accept the funds but there is no BSA policy requiring that you refuse them. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That's fine Ed, Now tell us what your opinion has to do with what the policies of the BSA are? The original post asked for the rules not for individal opinions. We have witnessed on this board in the past that most problems are caused by units operating according to opinions rather than the scouting program. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

OK OGE but RJ Reynolds also makes crackers and cheese. If the Pres wanted to do a craker barrel at $50 bucks a head are you going to refuse the money since they also make cigarettes? Will you refuse to sell popcorn or take FOS pledges from RJ Reynolds employees because they help to manufacture cigarettes and the money they use comes from the sales of tobacco products? Bob

Consider this then OGE A printed invitation sent to business leaders in the community that says Smith Winery of Napa Ca. invites you to attend an evening of music and wine tasting at the Smith residence on El Rancho Rd. Formal Dress is recommended. Cost is $250 per couple. All proceeeds benefit the scouting program of the ABC Valley Council of the Boy Scouts of America. Hiriam Smith, Chairman and CEO of Smith Wines and a long time member of the ABC Valley Council Executive Committee will be your host.

Silver-shark, Again you have misrepresented what was said. The original post says that the church wanted to give the computer to the troop to raffle. That would be a violation of the BSA money earning policies. However if the Church wanted to give a cash donation to the troop the BSA does not care how the church chooses to legally raise their own money. They just can't use the name and image of scouting to do it. You are welcome to your opinion but don't confuse it with the policies of the BSA. Bob White Just as a point of interest in evmori's first post he agreed that the CO could do the raffle and give the money to the unit (see the first few posts) and then after I posted he completely reversed his opinion. What's up with that Ed? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"BSA has stood up and said that, gambling, of any type is inconsistent with the Aims and Methods of Scouting,"

I am fascinated by how people know where the money comes from. I donate to several charities and have for years. No one has ever asked what I did to raise the money. I have done over a hundred FOS presentations at troops that raised over $4000 in pledges at a single presentation, and not once has anyone ever said "you know I got that money gambling". I have never even considered asking a $250 donor "now you don't gamble or sell drugs do you?" Businesses donate tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to our council and I know for a fact they have never been questioned as to how the funds were obtained, and I'll bet you don't ask either. If a school PTO does numerous fundraisings over the years and all the money goes into one checking account, just how in the world do you determine which dollars in the check they gave your scout unit came from the raffle, and which came from refreshment sales at the open house? I know of a police department that used confiscated drug money, given them by the court, to purchase bullet proof vests for their police officers. Do you really see that as tainted? You think churches in Vegas question each donor as to how that dollar in the collection basket came about? Shouldn't we be more concerned about how the money is used and how we earned it, not how the people donating earned it. Who on your committee has the truly awful job of following up on the source of all your donors income? Bob White

fbouseau I think we would all agree that in Webelos the Leader or their assisigned agent signs the requirements. That does not prohibit the leader from accepting schoolwork if it meets the requirement in the handbook. It would not make sense that schoolwork was acceptable for all ranks in cubs and scouts except for Webelos. Bob White

Well now we are in trouble. The local United Way recieved donations from the proceeeds of a beer and wine tasting event. Now I guess the Scout council has to refuse this year's United Way support. BW

Not next to me matuawarrior, but they are close at hand. My computer is in my scout room at home and I have the basic handbooks there. Since I'm heavily involved in training I have a pretty complete library of scout resource materials and training course materials in my garage. Plus I've been doing this for awhile and I try to stay current with the program. Bob

Actually it says " The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members." An adult activity off of council property would not be in violation of the BSA policies. BW