Bob White

Some interesting thoughts have been brought up in other threads and I would like to look into them a little more. 1. The fact that some council and district trainers by either individual choice or committee direction alter the training syllabi contents. I am curious as to what information you add or delete and why. 2. The frequency or infrequency with which courses are offered and why. 3. How does one get to be a trainer in your District. 4. How are Pack and Troop Trainers (a committee position within the unit) used to enhance or deliver training in your district. 5. The idea of using "devil's advocate" or purposely presenting wrong information in order to spark a discussion, as an effective training tool. To get the most usefull information it is important that only Trainers respond. Their knowledge of the various training syllabi and scout traininig techniques are vital to the response. Thank you in advance for participating, Bob White

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If you would be open to a "third solution" overtrained, I would like to offer one. First I need to know how many trainers you have that you feel could present a 2 1/2 to 3 hour Cub Leader Job Specific course, keeping in mind that much of the training is on video tape. Bob White

In our council we are big on Trainer Development BSA 500. In the last year we have held 3 courses and had over 90 participants. If you want to be a trainer, RT Commissioner or staff, or Wood Badge staff you are required to complete TD/BSA 500. Bob White

Basically none, other than inputing localized information. For instance in the NLE powerpoint we have inserted a map of the Council and district service areas. When Scoutmaster training talks about JLT we add the local name Birchbark with it. Other than that we feel that we have a responsibility as trainers to follow the syllabii and training continuum as it has been designed. How can we judge effectiveness if everyone is doing a different version? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

fotoscout, Do not confuse program adaptation with leadership skill growth. You can be a poor leader as a tiger Leader and still be a poor leader in Webelos. Even though the program adapts to the scout does not mean the leader has. Jbroganjr, I would like to address each of your points from another point of view. 1. Dealing with youth according to age levels Presented and discussed in New Leader Essentials 2. Role of the adult Presented in the new Fast Start Training Videos 3. Skills - Ideally, the phrase that cubscouters do not know how to camp should not appear nor be an issue. Cubbies would welcome working with BoyScouters to learn the ropes Different program levels different methods. This information is covered for Cubs in Job Specific training courses, Webelos Leader Outdoor Training (WLOT), Pow Wow, Roundtable and other courses. For Troop Leaders in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills(IOLS), and Roundtable among other localized programs. The New WLOT training is done parallel to IOLS and the Webelos Leaders share some course segments with the Troop Leaders. 4. To present the ideal of scouting competition This I beleive is your personal opinion for it is not an ideal of scouting that I have ever seen before or can find in any scouting resource or BSA reference. 5. Where to go, project planning, etc. This is presented and discussed extensively at Scoutmaster/Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specic Training, and should be an annual topic at Roundtable. 6. Advancement - a measurement and byproduct of an effective program, not the "reason" we are here. (If a truly effective program is in place, I personally believe we will see not only more rank advancement, but greater retention of youth members) This is presented and discussed extensively at Scoutmaster/Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specic Training, and should be an annual topic at Roundtable. 7. Marketing and Image - It is up to scouters to not only put their best foot forward, but to get the message out how great this program is. Wood Badge 8. Leadership Follow Up - not presentation of new material, but application of theory and ideals to real world problems, a sharing of solutions and ideas ROUNDTABLE, So you see the points you think need to be covered are covered if the leaders attend training and the trainers follow the syllabus. With the one exception of the point you raise that is not a part of today's scouting. Hope this helps, Bob White PS EagleDad Woodbadge is not to train you how to run a troop it is to develop leadership skills. Not Scout Leadership skills. The old Cub Wood Badge was not about cub program skills. It was to develop Cub Leader Trainers. In all due respect, the proglem is not that the Wood Badge course is missing the target, The problem is you misunderstand what the target is. Experience can only build confidence if the individual has a thourough understanding of the tools and what they are supposed to be accomplishing with them. Bad experience can even help make a better leader, but only if they recognize that it was a bad experience. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Contact your Council Executive, many have tremendous resouces within the council community and additionally they have training due to the Youth Protection program on counseling refferals. I am very sorry for your loss. Bob White

Kudos Dan for understanding the reference to a Scout being clean. The BSA dress uniform is a dark blazer with a BSA dress tie or the scarf for the women. What you all are refering to is the field uniform not the dress uniform. to jbroganjr, a great outdoor skill to teach the scouts is how to do their laundry at camp. Am I getting the wrong feeling from your posts? you seem to find more things you dislike about the scouting program than you like. Bob White

Keep in mind that you can earn all the merit badges and not earn all the palms. A scout can earn all the merit badges before he completes the required 3-month tenure sequences. To my knowledge national does not track record number of Palms. I do remember a scout earning all the merit badges in the mid-80s. But what would be the point of tracking palms Vs. Merit badges? Has a scout who earned the MBs at a slower rate and received more Palms accomplised more than a scout who earned more Mrit Badges faster and got fewer Palms? I don't think the program would want to give greater attention to one than the other. Bob White

Director of marketing for an advertising specialties and promotions corporation.

There should only be a second if there is a first, that is the point of two deep leadership. it is not because the boys require two adults to help them but to make sure that no adult is ever alone with the boys. The point of the patrol method is that there is no need for the first adult to be there. Patrols do not need to have adults to meet and under the correct circumstances do not require adults when hiking, camping, or doing other day or overnight activities. Bob White

And thats just the point KS if you are a Scoutmaster who does vilunteer time for the District committee then use your Wood Badge training to be a better leader in that as well. But if you are a SM who volunteers time as a sunday school teacher and a Red Cross volunteer it is not Wood Badge's purpose, or the intention of the the BSA, to make you do work on behalf of the District or Council in order to show you you are a good leader. We each have our own mission and legacy to fulfill. It is not Wood Badges goal to force us all into the same mold, but to give us the tools and motivation to be successful in our own unique ways. Plus, no one needs to be made a hat rack. There are plenty of jobs and plenty of people for each to do one job in scouting well and not try to do multiple positions. Bob White

It was either Confucious or perhaps Julia Roberts who said it best..."it's the thought that counts." The Flag represents our country, and the patch repesents our Flag. The fact that the embroiderer is unable to accomodate all the features within the small patch does not alter or lessen what it stands for. No disrespect is meant when using it as a focal point for saying the pledge and so I see nothing wrong with it. If someone is uncomfortable doing that then they shouldn't do it. Bob White

I would ask one question of the troop committee, Chairman and COR. "Will everyone here promise to follow the scouting program as designed and supported by the Boy Scouts of America?" Then make your decision based on their responses. Bob White

Actually silver-shark I believe you will find that the BSA course put on in the troop is Troop Junior Leader Training (TLJT) and is found in the Scoutmaster's Junior Leader Training Kit available through the local Council Service Center. JLT or Junior Leader Training is a one-week course offered by the Council Training Committee. To further confuse things many councils (with national's approval) rename JLT to give it more of a local identity, so it is not called JLT in all Council's. Here for instance it is known as Birchbark. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Patrols are not required to have two deep leadership present for meetings. Patrols are boy lead and do not have the same regulations as a troop. Remember a troop is not divided intop patrols, patrols gather to form troops. It is only during those gatherings that two deep leadership is required. Patrols may also go on overnights and hikes without adults present under specific conditions. bob white(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The purpose of Wood badge is not to make you a great Scoutmaster or Den Leader or District Chairman. The purpose is to give you the tools necessary to lead others and to see the possibilities of have more than just goals. Woodbage helps you to see a life mission and leave a legacy. No matter what you do in the community, at work, within your family, Wood Badge can give you tools to do it in a deeper more meaningful way. Your ticket should not force you to serve in any specific areas as in the past. But your ticket is about YOU doing what is meaningful to YOU in the most effective way. Bob White

The more I read of Eamonn's post the more I respect him. I think the one of the biggest fallacies is that with tenure comes skill. I have seen many a volunteer (and pro for that matter) that never get any better than their second or third year (some just do their first year over and over and over again. The best leaders, in scouting or in the private sector are those that know their industry, know their job, know their strengths and weaknesses, know their end user. Leadership is a living thing, and like any living thing you either grow or you die. I'm very sorry that jbroganjr didn't get what he wanted out of the Wood Badge course he attended. It appears his training staff did not understand or chose not to follow the program. By the way Wood Badge is not based on One-Minute Manager. It had as its core writer the author of One-Minute Manager, Ken Blanchard. The course segment on styles of leadership is based on Blanchard's philosophy of situational management. But other segments of course were developed by a 50-person team of scouting volunteers from across the country. Bob White

We run them as written, as separate courses, and it has worked quite well. In the last 12 months we have had 92 participants attend Cub Leader Job Specific courses in our District. Bob White

Believe be dsteele my comment was in no way meant to demean the fine folks at dickies. Bob

What a great opportunity we have for a shift in how we view the gap between red Cross and the BSA program. The Boy Scouts of America and the RED Cross have signed a cooperative agreement to share services, training and resources that will benefit both agencies. See the press release at www.scouting.org. This is no longer and them vs. us issue. Both organizations have for decades been concerned about the ability of the general public to respond to the emergency medical needs of the public. We have always had more in common than we had in differences. Even the Red Cross Lifeguard training program was written by the same person who authored the BSA lifeguard, Swimming MB, and the BSA water safety policies. Details on how the two programs will be teamed up are still being prepared and volunteers in both organizations will need to cooperate with these new concepts in order for the community to fully benefit. But we need to end this Them vs. Us attitude. Bob White

johnsed raises some excellent points. Although he refers to Boy Scout Roundtable features rather than Cub Scout Roundtable (which I assume 4theboys was referring to due to the title of the section) they share some similar elements and keys to success. I especially agree that attendance at events for adults is primarily driven by program quality just as is attendance by youth members at unit meetings. But I think another element has comes into play. Due to district and council consolidations some districts have grown to geographic proportions that make single location Roundtables inefficient and inconvenient in many Districts throughout the BSA. I think we need to be more out of the box in our view of Roundtable service and when geographic conditions require we need to establish multiple monthly Rundtables in a district. Many adults today no not have time to spend two hours on the road for a 90-minute meeting. I believe that If you want leaders to attend your Roundtable you need to be within a 30 minute driving range of their home. It is a great plan to have Boy Scout Roundtables model a top-notch troop meeting agenda and that has always been my goal as well as a RT Commissioner. But Cub Roundtables are different in many ways and do not lend themselves as easily to that format. But I agree with johnsned that there should be a pre-opening or gathering activity, the meeting should start and stop on time, it needs to be an interactive, hands-on program. It should address all levels of cubbing (preferably with the use of break-out sessions), announcements should be at a minimum (5-minutes or less), there should be good use of ceremonies and participants should leave with all kinds of scouting stuff in their possession. Lastly, encourage your Roundtable staffs and commissioners to attend Rountable seminars at Philmont Training Center this summer. They will share and collect great ideas from Rountables all across the country. Good Luck 4theboys, Bob White

I doubt that you will find any non-profit program that would share that philosophy with you scoutldr. Any organization worth its salt has one goal, to serve more people in their community this year than last year. More people requires more resources just to maintain the current level of service. Even if membership remained constant the cost of goods increases and so the financial need increases with it. In the BSA, I know of no council leadership (volunteer or professional) who do not have as a goal to not only grow in membership but to provide a better program,and better program support each passing year. So to add members and improve service always requires a growth in financial resources. having a half full glass is no victory if you have more thirsty people this year than last year. Bob White

jbroganjr, What resources and reference materials were you not allowed to have? BW

Scoutldr, Since you're gaining interest in the heritage of the program you might be interested in the frame of reference during which BP wrote about the SM not wearing other decorations. At the time there not many recognitions through the scouting organization to motivate leaders or recognize them for their contributions to the program so it was commonplace for leaders to wear their military recognitions on their scout leader's uniform. BP himself did this. It began to get out of control and that is what caused BP to suggest that leaders only where scout emblems on their uniforms. If you look at the the photos and film footage of BP you will see that he did not wear a blank uniform as his writing might suggest. His uniform reflected his activities and accomplishments during his lifetime. His concern was not over wearing a proper uniform, but was a reaction to random acts of uniforming that was going on at the time. Hope this helps to put things in perspective. Bob White