Bob White

Joni, You will find the most frustrating part of scouting is the inability of many adults to play nice together. There are a number of things that might help but to say which one would involve needing to hear the other side of the story from one or more of the other involved parties. I can give you one piece of advice. Follow the teachings of the Serenity Prayer. One verse reads "Give me the patience to accept the things I cannot change". In the case of the cub pack, if the problems you sight are accurate, they have some real problems. That does not make them your problems. Since you are not a parent in that pack or a leader in that pack then you need to let it go. Let the Charter org., Leaders and parents fight their own battles. As a parent in the troop you have a right to be concerned about safety, finances, youth protection and other issues involving your son. But pick you battles one at a time and understand you'll get more accomplished through cooperation than confrontation. Good Luck, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Remember, when the trailer is stored at the individuals home, theft or damage will fall under their home owners insurance. A trailer in tow is protected by the insurance of the vehicle towing it in most cases. The Congressional Charter of the BSA states that the scout unit belongs to the charter organization. Scout units are youth outreach programs of community organizations that contract to use the BSA program. No scout unit is a legal entity unto itself, not even in New York. Want proof? Read the rules of fundraising. No individual or Scout unit may sign a contract representing the BSA or it's units. Why because the unit is not a legal entity of scouting. Only BSA Councils and their legal representatives can sign a contract as a scouting organization. That insurance policy is a contract and if written to a scout unit and signed by an individual representing that scout unit is illegitimate and proabably illegal. You cannot get an insurance company to insure the robes of the church choir under the choir's name. The robes would be covered in the property insurance coverage of the church. The troop is no different. So why do insurance companies write coverage for scout units? Because they don't know about the congrassional charter or the ownership of the unit and properties. that is our responsibility as scouters. It is also our obligation to be honest and forthcoming with that information when purchasing insurance. When the Choir holds a fundraiser for new robes they do so not as an independent organization, but as the Church's choir. When the choir changes members, leadership or disbands the robes are owned by the church. Your scout unit is no different. You earn money either using the name and image of your charter organization or that of the BSA. Any money raised or equipment purchased with that money is first the property of the Charter Organization of which you have been allowed stewardship over. If there is a change of membership, leadership, or if the unit disbands the money and equipment remains in the ownership of the Chartered Organization. The BSA also has a responsibility for the stewardship of that money and property since you used the image and identity of the BSA in raising the funds (an image you do not own, but are allowed to use as a registered unit within the regulations of the BSA). The BSA will contact that Charter Organization and request that the money and equipment be used by the charter organization for the benefit of a youth program within the organization OR that the local BSA find another youth group which would benefit from the money and or property. Bob White

KWC Your ticket (singlar) is written according to the position you attend WB for. That position is determined by the role you are fulfilling in scouting or are going to fulfill in scouting For which you have completed the basic training requirements. My recommendation would be to take the course in the role you will perform in the troop AFTER you have completed the basic training requirements for that position. That might mean waiting until next year's WB course Bob White

Overtrained, What week will you be at Philmont? BW

The problem is that in the etes of the law the PTO's troop is no different than the Basdketball teeam or the Chess Club. Can you imagine what would happen if you tried to indure something in the name of the ches club. The troop is not a legal entity, it is a youth group belonging to the chartered organization. What is happening is that the insurance agent has no idea that the troop doesn't belong to the BSA and thinks they have insured a unit of the BSA. You could be in real trouble if you ever needed to colect and someone realized that the policy was not owned by a valid entity. Bob White

"If the Scout doesn't remember what he learned when he earned what's the point?" The point is that memorization of MB information is not the purpose or goal of the program. If, from his experience in scouting, he learns to make ethical decisions based on the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law then his time in scouting has been successful regardless of his rank or merit badge count. Bob White

Offer training the Same Day every Month, let's say the third Saturday. On odd number months hold NLE from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. On even months hold three Sessions of Cub Leader Job Specific Training. Do them in three locations or in the same place but three different rooms, one trainer to each course. I recommend 9 am till noon. Don't worry about how many people come. Train 1 or 20, it still puts more trained leaders in the program every 30 days. This way your trainers work about 90-minutes a month (a month on and a month off) and nobody burns out. You meet the needs of the leaders and you increase the visibility of training services in the District. Since Your leaders have such a light load they won't mind making the occassional trip to a pack's home to train an entire committee. The national training goal is that 100% of leaders are trained in the first 90 days. Yes it's a challenge but not impossible. But it will not be done by using the old model of of holding training just once or twice a year. Good Luck, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

These boys are too old to register in Cub Scouting At age 11 they need to be in Boy Scouts. Be straight forward with the parents amd guardians these boys are too old to participate in cub scouts and should not be in attendance at the meetings. Better yet give the contact information to the troop and have them contact the parents and give them the good news.

You raise points worth discussing twocubdad. I will try not to be too lengthy. 1. this was not a silly hypothetical it was an actual situation in a real council where I had just moved to, and was asked to become RT Commissioner. The boy scout Roundtable was 7 guys sitting in the conference room at the council office once a month and whining about the professional staff. This had been their "program" for over two years. Should I have been sensitive to their program preference and kept that as the RT program or even as part of an RT program? The Cub RT was 90-minutes of announcements as the leaders sat in rows of folding chairs listening as the various district committee reps parade by and make their announcements. Does this fulfill the mission of Roundtable service? 2. Shouldn't the Roundtable staff know their audience before the meeting, and come prepared with a program? If they depend on changing when they get there how will they know what resources to prepare or bring? 3. I'm not talking passive information like safety rules. I asked specifically about an active skill. Cubbing needs to be hands-on and active to meet the needs and characteristics of a boy in that age group. In order to learn active skills you must practice them actively. That is one of the main tenents of how to teach children. Adults are not used to this style of learning so they must practice this in order to do it well with the boys. Yes there should be program accomodations for administrative level scouters in attendance. That is why the agenda for Cub roundtable stresses the need for breakoutr sessions so that specific work can be done with specific groups. A committee chair does not need to make a birdhouse with tongue depressors, but a den leader should not have to listen about filling out committee paperwork either. Cub roundtables need to provide the type of information in the correct way for each group. But if you are a wolf Den Leader that doesn't want to sing songs or do skits or play silly games then you should not have been selected to be a den leader. If you are a roundtable staff that doesn't include these feature in every roundtable you are not meeting the mission of Roundtable service. 4. What you decribe is known as transactional selling. A company that wants to sell magnets talks to a customer until he sees a way to sell the customer a magnet. Yes, actually many companies do business that way. But not the good ones. In my company we have access to many items and many ways for our clients to employ these items. We listen and learn what our customers are trying to accomplish in the business, who is their target audience, what response are they trying to stimulate. Then we determine if the products and service we offer can actually achieve those goals. If my client thinks that what he needs are magnets and I know from my experience and research that magnets will not get the results he expects then I will let him buy his magnets from someone else. Because when it fails I do not want them to see it as my company's failure. I'm looking for successful business relationships not a single sale. As I a Rountable commissioner my responsibility is to deliver the mission of roundtable not pander to the wants of any size group if those wants are not the products and services that roundtable is responsible for delivering. As an example RT is not there to be the 90-minute bulletin board for the District Committee. Those committees have other communication resources they can use. To hi-jack roundtables program time is not the answer, even if the participants believe that is the purpose of the meeting. Yes, Roundtable needs to bring a marketing approach. But that means they must remember what their specific product line is, who their company is and what the goal of their business is. Bob White So what are the two goals of cub Roundtable?

i think this is a great time for a written scoutmasteres minut to go to all the parents and scouts. It can remind them of their obligation to be friendly, courteous, and kind, and that that behavior is while in uniform or out. Attach the membership responsibilities section of the Guide to Safe Scouting. Remind them that bullying and violence will not be tolerated and that scouts who do not behave as scouts will be brought before the Troop Committee to determine the next course of action. Continued bad behaviour can result in expulsion. Thank them for adhereing to the ideals of the program and give both scouts and parent the appropriate youth protection training for their age group. Good Luck, Bob White

Sorry about the typos on the previous post i was on the run. Probably the most confusing was in #3 which should have read... You have a mix of skills and experience at roundtable. Some things old hat to you are a new experience to others. At some point it took you longer to do the skill than it takes today because you had less experience. Doesn't the teaching need to be aimed to the least experienced?

1. But what if the things they say they want and need are not with the goals of Roundtable or in the best intersest of a quality scouting program? For instance what if the discussion they want is to complain about the Proffessional service side of scouting. We have some Cub RT staffers in this discussion I am sure they will share the 2 goals of roundtable with us. 2. Is it the programs responsibility to bend to the be what the participant thinks it is supposed to be? Or is it the responsibility of the leader to present the Scouting program that the meeting is designed for? Does the Den Leader change the methods and goals of the den meeting because what the boys want is to gather and just play video games? 3. You have a mix of skills and experience at roundtable. Some things old hat to you are a new experience to others. At some point it to you longer. Doesn't the teaching need to be aimed to the least experienced? If you discuss how to swim in a classroom and don't actually get in the water and get wet, how many people can you expect to actually know how to swim? 4. You cannot teach everything a Cub leader needs to know in the 4.5 hours of basic training. Isn't that why we have monthly Roundtables?

Open Questions. 1 What if what the majority of participants want is not what the two purposes of Roundtable are? 2 What if the people who aren't coming are staying away because they want to know how to play with 8-year olds in a scout environment and the Roundtable isn't giving them that because the "old coots" complain too much when you do. 3 If Roundtable is not reinforcing the "kid fun" of cubscouts by teaching and modeling the songs games skits and crafts, where do leaders get that on-going support from? 4 If Roundtable models lectures and discussions, what keeps the Den leaders and Cubmasters from modeling lectures and discussions at their meetings? Just curious, Bob White

Wood badge is described in the Cub Leaders Handbook on page 26-5. Keep in mind this is the previous version of WB. Wood Badge for the 21st century is newer than the lates edition of the Leader handbooks. The reason the descriptions are differnt is two fold. The Cub WB was totally different in content to the Scout WB. And, the Cub Division at National is completely Separate from the Boy Scout divison. Just because one puts info in their manual does not guarantee that the other will do the same. They are separate operations. Bob White

The description of Wood Badge Training is on Page 26-5 Of the Cub Scout Leaders Handbook. Now keep in mind these are the previos WB courses being described because WB for the 21st Century is brand new and the Leader manual revisions have not had time to catch up yet. The requirement for two years of unit service was dropped with the implementation of WB for the 21st Century because not all adult positions in scouting are face to face with the youth, but that doesn't mean that you do not need the skills taught in Wood Badge. There is not as strong an emphasis on troop operation because not every leader in scouting is in a troop. They have moved the advanced outdoor skills to other courses because not every leader in scouts requires that skill to do their job function. Bob White

When I was a Cubmaster I got photos from the families of the boys as they grew up. these were combined with photos of them in scout activities through the early years. we scanned the photos and made a PowerPoint Presentation to the music of Rod Steward's "Forever Young". (not a dry eye in the house.) We then take off the blue loops, Webelos Neckerchief and slide, Webelos Handbook and Webelos shoulder ribbon. Those are all put into his uniform hat and presented to the parents as keepsakes of his youth. The parents are asked to wish their scout well as he crosses into being a young adult, with that he crosses the bridge to meet scouts on the other side who give him his Scout hat, Red loops, Neckerchief, slide, Troop numerals and Handbook. He then walks away with the scouts. The Troop Committee Chairman the then greets the parents as they leave cub scouting and and cross over the bridge into troop service. The Cub Scout resource 'Pack and Den Ceremonies' also has some nice Crossover ideas in it. Bob White

Just some random personal thoughts. > Could it be that Wood Badge Trained scouters get selected for things like the Dist. Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, Jamboree Leadership and Philmont Training Center because they have shown a level of interest in learning the program and honing leadership skills that others have not yet shown or have chosen not to show, and set and achieved goals to serve scouting beyond the needs of a single scout unit? And not that they are the only ones who get those things. I have seen dozens of very talented Unit Leaders recieve those recognitions as well. (the James West Knot by the way recognizes a scouter who makes a substantial financial donation to their local council and be obtained by any scouter at any time and has zero to do with Wood Badge or 'good ol boys'.) > Could it be that the the bond between Wood Badge trained scouters comes from having shared a unique training experience and a level of appreciation for the mission and legacy of scouting that others may not have been exposed too or have chosen not to share? > Could the 'shroud of secrecy' be getting compounded by long term scouters who have not taken the time to look open a BSA resource for an explaination of Wood Badge. It was on Page 4 of the Scoutmaster Handbook. > We can only hope that the bad acting on the videos is countered by the skills and attitude of the volunteer trainer. > Anyone who doesn't see the videos as an improvement never sat through the the film strips with record narration of the Cornerstone Training and Scout Leader Basic Training. Or sat in a room trying to read a flip chart written in yellow marker or a narrow tip felt pen, because a diehard scout trainer either never attended or didn't listened to the presentation tips during TTT or WB. > How off base where the designers of the new Job Specific Training? In the previous SM training called Scoutmaster Fundamentals, we buried Scoutmasters and Asst. Scoutmasters in paperwork that wasn't even their responsibility to do. Now Troop Committee Challenge covers the paperwork for the people actually responsible for doing it and the Scoutmaster/Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training focuses on the methods of scouting. What the heck were they thinking? > I truly feel sorry for scouters who have been frustrated by Wood Badge trained scouters who would not share the values of WB training. I never experienced that prior to Wood Badge, and having served on three staffs in three different councils know that this attitude is not one taught or supported by the BSA. So I hope that those who have been affronted in this way will realize this is a problem with individuals and not an element of the program. In our District in order to keep that sort of thing from happening we do not allow individuals who behave that way to train other leaders. In addition in order to be a trainer you must support all levels of training from the basic courses to the supplemental through the advanced. A trainer that does not support advanced training is like a chef that doesn't recommend his own restaurant. BW

In over 25-years as an adult leader I have never met, seen, or heard a Wood Badge trained leader refuse to discuss the skills of Wood Badge or the merits of the course. I have never heard or seen a Wood Badge trained leader refuse to explain the purpose of a ticket. I have, and I have heard and seen others, decline from explaining the specifc structure of the ticket because the ticket structure has changed several times over the years and they did not want to say one thing and have it end up being another. I have also declined, and heard others decline, to give the specifics of their personal goals. They are my goals. They are personal to me and have no bearing on anyone else or their specific role in scouting or goals in life. I am happy to give examples of goals that one might choose, but I am not obligated to share my own personal ones. If you scout in a community where Wood Badge is treated secretly then you need to know that it is not the norm, nor is it a behavior that is taught or recommended in Wood Badge. I was a leader for three years before attending Wood Badge and I went because of the noticable difference in skills and attitude of the other leaders wearing the Wood Badge. They were the friendliest most active leaders in our district. They lead the largest troops and were the only ones not running around and hollering at the scouts. 22 years later I still see the same attributes. Bob White

All the credit really goes to your son Sparky, congrats! Bob

jbroganjr, I apologize if my use of bold lettering upset you. It was used only as a definer between your points and my responses. At no time did I offer a response that was 'scouting according to Bob White'. You pointed out information that you felt should be in the BSA training materials and I simply pointed out that they already are, and where they were in the program. If that bothers then that is something you will need to come to grips with on a personal level. As far as what competition is like in your neck of the woods I can only offer that as true as that might be it is irrelevant to the aims, mission, and methods of the BSA. As unit leaders, trainers and commissioners it is not our role to alter the program of the BSA at will. All I did was point out that the feature you wanted included is not what the BSA teaches or endorses. I would hope as a Roundtable Commissioner you understand the importance of that point. (by the way I lived in New York for 6 1/2 years up until about 4 years ago and competition was not an ideal of scouting there either at that time.) A lot of scouters post on this and other bulletin boards about the way they run their scouting program. The vast majority of my posts are not about my opinion but about the program as presented by the BSA in its offical resources and training. I also post the source of my information. When I am representing my personal opinion or methods of implementation of the scout methods I always say so up front (something you did not do in representing competion as an "ideal" of scouting). You say none of your ideas were out of bounds. I would agree on all but point 4. They were however incorrect from the stand point of you respesenting them as 'needing to be included' and I answered that they already are and explained where they were. If they were not in your course that is a local problem that you would need to address in your district, because that information is in the syllabus for those courses. You wanted point 4 to be included but it is not a part of current scouting and to be represented as such is inappropriate and misrepresents the BSA program. As you say the program does change over time. But today, it is what it is today, and it does not include competion as an ideal and so it should not be included in any training presentation until that change is adopted by the BSA. In response to another point you made..I do not see how following the rules and methods of the BSA equates to hiding behind them. I don't know how they view things in New Jersey, but here in the midwest someone who follows the rules of the community is considered a good citizen and neighbor. We view scout volunteers who folow the official program the same way. As far as my moniker, neither I nor the operators of this site nor dozens of other posters see this as problem. It is within the rules of the board and is a common security practice when posting on the internet. I could post as Ted Daniels if it would make you feel better. But that's not my name either. jbroganjr may or may not really be yours, I really don't care, I do not see how it would alter the content of your posts either way. So as long as it is irrelevant to the content and the validity of the information I share I will continue to follow the rules of the board and protect my security through the use of a handle. Yours in Scouting, Bob White

Unavailable? Only to some one not registered in scouting or who is registered but isn't committed enough to complete the basic instruction for their position of reponsibility. Unclear? huh? Hard to get? Doesn't everything worth doing take some amount of effort? Cloaked in mystery? I think what is being misinterpreted as "secret" is the understanding by those that have taken the course that the methods and activities surrounding the actual instruction are part of the learning experience. That combined with the fact that it takes a certain amount of personal committment in time, money, and service to scouting go the extra step in taking Wood Badge Training. I am always amused by those who want to share in the experience, but do not want to have to make the same committment. Bob White

Mark, you ignore the fact that he did't just go out and pick these merit badges up. Adults passed him on the requirements. If the adult that actually met, talked, worked with, and tested the scout, approved him for the MB who are you to say that he did not earn it, or that he did not learn from the expwerience? The fact is you don't know. You are guessing based on your personal opinions and bias without a single shred of specific evidence concerning this scout or any other scout who accomplished the same feat, at whatever age he was at the time. Memory is not a requirement of the BSA once the merit badge has been earned. Bob White

Eagledad, I believe you are still operating under a number of misconceptions regarding Wood Badge. "New leaders took it as how to run a troop and pushed it on their scouts they same way they experience it." That was the original intention of Wood Badge, to train Scoutmasters to operate a troop. That has changed over the decades as Wood Badge has gone through a number of changes. "The new course teaches leadership skills for working with boys, and not the same leadership skills you teach to scouts." That's not correct. Wood Badge for the 21st Century teaches leadership skills. Not leadership skills for working with boys, JUST leadership skills. The methods you are exposed to in Wood Badge work in ANY leadership situation in or out of the scouting environment. " >The old Cub Wood Badge was not about cub program skills. It was to develop Cub Leader Trainers.

Right on littlebillie, There seem to be an lot of posters on this thread who have lost sight of the purpose of the merit badge program. It is not to create expertise at any level in the topic. The two purposes of the merit Badge program are to expose scouts to areas of interest that could lead to a career or lifetime hobby, and to place them in contact with MB counselors who have an enthusiasm for the topic through their training, employment or hobby. I have read from posters of their disappointment that an Eagle candidate could not tie a simple knot. Having checked the requirements for Eagle as well as the aims and mission of scouting I am unable to uncover any such requirement for the rank or goal of the program. The outdoor skills of scouting are one tool we use as leaders to build an adult capable of making ethical decisions based on the oath and law. If we were carpenters building a cabinet to hold dishes we would use a variety of tools to shape the wood for its ultimate purpose. I would not expect the wood to remember how to operate the tools, that is my responsibility as the carpenter. My only expectations of the cabinet is that it can function correctly on completion. I view scouting the same way. The methods of scouting are my tools in helping to shape young people. I do not expect them to remember all the tools. That is my responsibility. I need to use the right tools in the right ways if I want to see the expected results. Bob White

I would say he learned how to set and achieve goals. Remember every MB and rank he earned was approved by others who were more experienced and more knowledgeable than he was, and they determined that he met the requirements. More over they made those determinations based on personal contact with the scout, talking with him, and seeing his work. They did not determine his skill or qualifications by reading an article that someone else wrote about him. Just a thought, Bob White