Bob White

You just don't get it do you Ed, I posted the contents of two BSA policies, and you make a conclusion from it that I have no morals. That was out of line, but I should have expected that. Bob White

Ed Mori, I was searching for some past info when I came upon a post of April 21 that I had not seen before. In it you wrote the following... "Bob White, You posted in this thread that mentioning the BSA in a raffle fundraiser held by the CO is against the fundraising policy set forht by the BSA. In the thread about "Wine Tasting as a Fundraiser" you seemed to think this was OK since there were probably no Scouts present. So from what I gather, as long as their are no Scouts present or the BSA isn't mentioned in a fundraiser held by the CO, then it makes no difference what the CO is doing to raise money, according to you. WOW! I'm flabergasted! Where are your morals!" Well Ed this is a new low even for you. You took two posts of mine from April 14, 2003, where I quoted the fundraising policies of the BSA that prohibits Units from holding raffles, and another one from the same date regarding Wine Tasting as a fundraiser. In it I said I was unaware of any BSA policy prohibiting such an activity as long as scouts were not present, and you created that heap of dribble which you attested to me. You took two policies of the BSA, misrepresent it as my personal opinion and then draw an irrelevant conclusion which you used to question my personal morals. Had you one iota of credibility in your person you would have also included what I wrote in the next paragraph. "Would I support such an activity where I live, probably not, but I try not to impose my personal choices on those in other communities without more information." You obviously have no problem doing that. Your post was cowardly and deceitful. Since you have shown yourself so knowledgable in the area of biblical quotes in the past I am surprised you missed this on "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." You owe the members of this board an apology for misrepresenting what I wrote, in order to support an opinion which you have based entirely on a lack of knowledge of the policies of the BSA program, and for attacking an individual just for refering to those policies. Where are my morals? Ed where are yours? You should be ashamed! Bob White

What the Leave No Trace training brochure 21-105 says is that is the easiest manner. There are areas of backcountry where this is not possible, and local guidelines will request you pack out your waste. More info can be found by contacting the local Fish and Wildlife Service, The Forest Service, or The National Park you are planning to visit. BW

I agree with everything silver-shark said except for "zero-leadership" being present. this is not about zero-leadership, it is about boy-leadership and zero adults. BW

The practice of packing out everything you bring in including your own body waste has been a basic elemnet of low impact camping and Leave No Trace camping for many years. It is a courtesy practiced by most serious hikers and back-country campers. The fact that animals leave droppings in the woods in not an invitation for us to do so as well. Animals also drill into and fell live trees. Does that give a conservation oriented program the right to do so? Animals deficate in the same waters they eat and drink from. Any takers on that on? Animal droppings help to spread many plant species, what part of your diet makes that functional? But hey, indians used to do it. Indians had far different diets then we do, they lacked the technology of of plastic bags, they had no where else to take the waste to, and it was their land at the time. If you want to deficate in your own yard go ahead, but I am a part owner of those parks you want to leave your stool in and I don't appreciate the gesture. The BSA's Leave Do Trace Program was designed by the folks at The National park Service, and Outdoor Magazine. They have far more experience and knowledge in the area of outdoor hiking technique and conservation then any of us posting on this board. I think we need to develop a little more sense before we decide what the non-sense is. No one said it was an enforced law. It is a courtesy and a skill. As far as who the poor boy is who has to carry it...If you brought it in with you, then you carry it out. Leave only footprints, take only pictures, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The ability of patrols to hike and camp on their own without adults present and with the permission of the SM is written about and supported in the Scout Handbook, the Scoutmasters Handbook, both the SPL and the PL Handbooks and mentioned specifically in the Youth Protection video and in the on-line Youth Protection training. Finally it is mentioned in the Guide to Safe Scouting in the very first paragraph regarding Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings. Since these are all national publications from the BSA I am not sure what more you would require in evidence of the BSAs support of this activity? Here are some important guidelines. The first two come from the BSA the rest are my own that I have used for several years. 1. The patrol must have the SMs permission. 2. ALL parents of the scouts participating must give their approval and know that no adults will be present. (my rules to get SMs permission) 3. All scouts must be First Class or higher. 4. Only scouts from that patrol can attend 5. The patrol must file a travel plan. 6. They must have a purpose or goal to accomplish in the way of advancement education or service. 7. They are responsible for the use, care and return of all troop equipment that they take. 8. They are to behave as scouts at all times 9. They must give a patrol report to the troop at the next meeting about their trip. 10. They can expect at least two adults to drop in or at least observe them from a distance at any time during the event (this is for their safety not to check-up on their behavior) If I have any concern over the ability of the scouts to do these things then I will modify the requirements and insist that two adults camp near them. Hope this helps, Bob White

Rather than read it from me check out the Boy Scout handbook. It explains what the Scout Spirit really means and what 'active' is. Then let us know what you discovered. Bob White

Sager, Yes the Venturing Crew operates under it's own charter. fotoscout, Not quite, actually not close. I recommend you borrow the Venturing Leaders Guide from a local volunteer and read through it. That should anwer all your questions. Bob White

The four corner thing on the Totin chip card is a myth that has amused me since I was a scout in the 60s. If I understand it right, I am allowed to misuse a sharp tool three times with no problem but on the the fourth misuse of the tool I get a consequence? I tried to get the same deal from my parents. "tell you what dad if I disobey you three times nothin happens but on the fourth time you can punish me." he didn't buy it. So I went to my teacher. "tell you what Mrs. Martin, If I forget my homework you tear a corner off my report card. If you take the fourth corner then it affects my grade." No deal. But my scoutmaster... I can mishandle an ax 4-times before they take my card away. No not that... not my card? This is a tradition of scouting. Read that as, 'if you do something wrong long enough it becomes a habit (tradition)'. What makes the fourth misdeed any worse than the third. More importantly how many times will we let a anyone endanger themselves or someone else with the misuse of a tool before we step in and re-train them. I hope for safety's sake everyone answered "once". My opinion, Bob White

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"It is the mark of the Elite in Scout leadership." I certainly do not wish to negate anyone's personal feelings or enthusiasm, and each person is certainly welcome to describe how WB has affected them personally. But to make a general statement such as this is not an accurate reflection of what the course teaches, or what the program intends to accomplish. Having served on a few WB staffs and been involved in the formulation of WB for the 21st Century, the word "elite" has never been in my mind, my heart or my vocabulary. I agree with ASM514 that Wood Badge has been an important training in my life, but to consider myself elite would rob me of some of the most important values that WB has helped to develop. I am grateful for the skills I gained through WB and for the opportunity to use those skills to benefit scouts and scouting. I would hope others who have participated in WB would feel the same.

Mark your son does my heart proud. The best sign of a good scout program is Patrol activities without adult leadership. It has been a elemnt of the patrol method since day one and has been a promise printed in every edition of an American Boy Scout Handbook and still is. We train boys to be self sufficient, trustworthy and effective leaders, and yet so many of us are afraid to actually trust them to be those things. If we really believe in what we are doing, and if we did it correctly then the logical culmination is independence from adults. That is the whole purpose of the Patrol Method. Adult leaders are called troop leaders for a reason. They only pplay a role when the troop is present. What is a troop? A basic tenent of scouting is "a troop is not divided into patrols. Patrols gather to form a troop". Adults are not required for a patrol to meet. For patrols to do hiking or camping under the protection of the BSA they need to have the scoutmasters permission and the parents must all be aware that the boys will not have adult leadership present. Two deep leadership does not say you must have two adults at all times. It says you cannot have one adult with one child. And that troop activities must have a minimum of two adults. Patrols are not troops. They even make this specific point during the YP video. Mark said it very well. If these boys were not in scouting you would think nothing of them hopping on their bikes on a summer day and going for a ride. Why, if they are scouts (and are taught bike safety, planning, map reading, manners and other related skills) do they need to have two adults present for the same bike ride? They don't, and the handbook even says so. Baden-Powell said it best..."Train them, Trust them, Let them lead." As far as curfew. That is a local ordinance and would have to be handled at the community level. But if the scouts are on private property I'm not sure that would have any bearing. The more you focus on the individual patrols the closer you get to real scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

A green tent pitched with its back to a cool breeze on some high ground with a grove of shade trees near by. My backpack hangs on a nearby tree. Food and garbage are hung in trees upwind outside of camp. A buck and doe wonder through camp as I sit on the edge of the stream at the bottom of the hill, drowning worms on the end of a fishin' line and contemplating life in general. No gateways, no ropes, no flagging tape, no big campfire, no lanterns. The only lights I need God has hung in the night sky for me to use for free. I fall asleep listening to crickets call to their mates.

The info you seek is detailed in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual available through your local council Service Center. Your unit is violating the advancement policies of the BSA in numerous ways and needs to get back to the official program methods. Bob White

This might start a controversy, not that I have never done that before, but over the years I have been involved in 5 different troops and none had an adult patrol per se. This was by choice. Each of the units felt that it was important to leave the youth features of scouting with the youth. That we didn't want to infringe on thier program by imitating it as adults. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with units that have adult patrols names. I have seen some clever ones. But I have also seen it lead to adult patrols competing against scout patrols in a number of different ways and that lead to real problems. By not forming the adult patrol in the first place that problem never arose. That being said we do an honorary patrol for parents who come on their first overnighter with the boys. It is called the Grumpy Bear Patrol and comes not with a patrol medallion, but with a very tongue-in-cheek certificate, Although we function as a separate patrol on campouts, camp separately, plan our own menu etc. We do it more as a quiet example of patrol method then anything else. Bob

Sager, I'm not sure but you may be confusing a Venturing crew with a Venture Patrol. The Venture crew is a distinct unit, as unrelated to the troop program as a pack would be. What can you do for venturing as an Assistant Scoutmaster? relatively little since it is a separate program. If your Troop however had a venture patrol for the older boys in the troop you could be the ASM for the venture patrol. This would be a patrol of older scouts who focused on more high adventure opportunities than the regular or new scout patrols. As an adult leader you could help the Venturing program by helping scouts know there are other scouting programs available to them as the get older. be aware of the individual needs and characteristics of the Boy Scouts yo work with. If you see scouts losing interest because of the need to socialize with older scouts or in a coed environment, or maybe want to try a different advancement program you can steer them towards Venturing. If the want to stay within the troop but need more challenging outdoor activities then perhaps a venture patrol would be the answer. Hope this helps, Bob White

I see the value in an interview process. What I question is the selection process. The troop isn't getting the person it wants, it is getting the person that wants them. It may be a fine line but it is an important one. The person who may be the best possible scoutmaster could get past over because you asked "who wants the job" rather than going to the best candidate available and saying "we admire you for having these special traits and we would like you to to fill a special role in the lives of our children." Because when you get right down to it that is what being a good Scoutmaster is all about. A unique and special opportunity to change young people for the better. To create a legacy of character that you will be remembered for, for the rest of their lives. To me that is such a vital task that it deserves to go to someone we choose, rather than someone who chooses us. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Through commissioning I have worked with units sponsored by "friends of scouting" groups. In every case it was to help the unit find a new chartering organization because the "friends of" group didn't exist. They had nowhere to meet, no help in selecting and approving adult leaders, no youth base to recruit from. The Charter Organization plays an important role in successful scouting. It is important that the organization not only exist but have the ability to fulfill its responsibilities as outlined in the Shared Responsibilities agreement of the BSA Charter. All to often the relationship has deteriorated over the years. Too often the unit waits for the CO to come running back saying "We are sorry we left you what can we do to help?". This isn't going to happen. We need to look at this as troubled marriage. If we are waiting for our sponse to come to us and make everything right then we might as well just sign the divorce papers. If the relationship is important to us (and it should be) then it's up to us as unit leaders to rebuild and maintain it. I'm with the others, work through your professional staff and commissioner service to find a real community organization that wants to use the scouting program to teach values to young people and partner with them to help them reach their goals. Best of Luck, Bob White

fotoscout, Just Bob would be fine thank you. As Ed wrote there is nothing in scouting (other than a rumor that will not die) that says you must travel in uniform, and certainly nothing that makes accident protection dependent on being in uniform. For years the BSA program has taught the benefits of being in uniform. One of which is that traveling in uniform helps with behavior, promotes scouting to the general public, and makes it easier to keep track of participants when you get off the vehicle. But at no time has the BSA said you need to be in uniform when traveling to be protected by accident insurance. As far as Tour Permits, You do not need to file tour permits for accident benefits for youth. HOWEVER, if you want to retain liability insurance for the registered adults and the Chartering Organization, then you had better file your paperwork with the council service center. Just Bob

KWC57, I am just suggesting that in order to discover the real problem and suggest a remedy it would helpful to know the other side of the story (and when other people are involved there is always another side of the story). Joni's post suggests she is right and everyone else is wrong, which may indeed be the case. But not all of her views are correct either (such as voting on a scoutmaster). I appreciate that she feels objective in her story but she is also has great emotion about it and is personally involved so she cannot help but be subjective in her point of view. If the problem really is that she is right and everyone else is wrong then she has a very tough battle. It is doubtful that anything we post here will help her to change other people. Counseling at its best can only change the person being counseled. It can help them to change who they are to change relationships with others, or to accept the other people for who they are and better understand the relationship. It sounds as if the scouters who are leaving have realized this. Since they cannot change the people, they are looking to form new relationships with others. Perhaps this is Joni's solutiion as well. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sorry Joni, I reread you original post and did find where you said you were advancement chair. I got kind of lost in your letter it jumped between pack and troop frquently. I am disappointed you feel you can be objective when are are personally involved. By definition that pretty much eliminates objectivity. When people are involved there is always "another side" of the story. I think Eamon raised some excellent points. Good Luck, Bob White

Back up Ed! I was responding to a direct question you asked me. Let me remind you what it was. "What if all a Scout learned was to whine & complain till he got what he wanted without learning a thing?" My response was, that if that were the case, and the scout keeps advancing, your problem is with the Scoutmaster. For it is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to evaluate the scout's "spirit". Is he living by the Oath and Law? I offer that a scout that whines and complains to get what he wants is not friendly, courteous, helpful or cheerful. So if a scout has the attributes you described the problem has nothing to do with how much he remembers of his past merit badges but with the Scoutmaster's ability to evaluate and direct the character of the scout. As far as the original scout, there was nothing in this article that would cause me to question his advancement. Bob White

jbroganjr, I agree with everything you said. I would add a better reason for keeping things to 5 or 10 minutes. That is the attention span of cubs. Den leaders and cubmasters need to learn to set their internal scout clock to that pace. They need RT to be a meeting metronome, so that when they are in a cub meeting they feel the pace. Scoutmom, You are right to feel upset about the way were were treated. your comfort and recogniton is a primary obligation of that staff and they dropped the ball. Giving you accurate information is another prime responsibility of Roundtable, they dropped the ball again. Sorry that happened to you. Anybody want to try to name the two goals of Roundtable? Bob White

"What if all a Scout learned was to whine & complain till he got what he wanted" First he is too young to be a Scoutmaster Sorry I couldn't resist. Actually it would seem your concern and your contempt is not with the boy, but with the Scoutmaster who signed his scout spirit requirements as he advanced. A scout who whined and complained to get his way has not lived a life or made decisions based on "helpful, courteous, kind, or cheerful" and should not have been advanced with those traits.

dsteele please don't make me look it up again. That is one of the most boring congessional acts to wade through. I will agree that the uniform has a military origin and still maintains many military elements. But about a year ago I researched this for a Roundtable presentation and there is a clause added in the 1920s that says the BSA uniform is not to mimic any US Military Uniform. I immediately thought of the Sea Scout uniform which certainly mimics a seaman's uniform Then I found out that by definition the Navy is not a branch of the military. It is the Navy and military refers to ground forces. Likewise the old Air Scout program was able to dress as airmen since they are not by definition ground forces. So do the rules say no fatigues or BDU's? That is debatable and a huge waste of time. The main point is that a field shirt and BDU's or fatigues is out-of-uniform not because they are military, but because they are not BSA uniform pieces. Wear what you want but don't call it a BSA uniform if it isn't, and don't think you have the option to establish BDU's or fatigues as BSA uniform options within a unit. The BSa uniform is controled by the National office of the BSA. My favorite Myth, The one that goes ...you must travel in uniform to be covered by scout insurance. I've heard this for years. My Second Favorite...That Scout Spirit is determined by attendance. My Third...That to be considered "Active" for Rank advancement simply means to be registered. All three are hogwash. BW