Bob White

Dan, Please don't walk away. I think you represent alot of well-meaning scouters who simple see this requirement differently than how the program intends for it to work. Can we agree that it is possible to achieve a measurable activity level that incorporates both the needs of the scout and the needs of the Patrol and troop. And that this measurable, cooperative decision is achieved by an open 2-sided discussion with the scout. And that the time to do this is before the scout begins his trek toward the next rank during the Scoutmaster Conference. Are there any points in this that you feel is not beneficial to the mission of the program? Your feedback is appreciated. Bob White

Lets talk Patrol Method (this is not a substitute for attending Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training) This is how I understand the Patrol Method in Scouting. The patrol method is one of the basic tenets of scouting. It incorporates how scouting is; organized, lead, planned, taught, and more. It is dependent on the adult leadership focusing on training junior leaders and not on running the troop members in general. The overview is like this, there are three types of patrols; (groups of usually no more than 8 scouts) New Scout Patrols, each under the leadership of a Troop Guide and a Patrol Leader that serves for thirty days. Regular Patrols, that consist of scouts First Class and higher under the leadership of an elected Patrol Leader and a selected Asst. PL Venture Patrols, Scouts 13-years of age and First Class or higher under the leadership of an elected Patrol Leader and a selected Asst. PL (ASPLs are selected by the PL) The PLs are each responsible for the activity, behavior and success of their independent, individual patrols. When two or more patrols gather they become a troop under the leadership of an elected Senior Patrol Leader and his selected assistant. They are responsible for coordinating the efforts of the PLs. They are not the boss of every patrol member. The PL helps the patrol succeed, the SPL helps the PLs succeed. Adult Leader responsibilities (outside of troop committee) Scoutmaster-Train Junior Leaders, Coordinate PLC agenda with SPL, Know the needs and characteristics of every boy in the troop. Asst. Scoutmaster- Manage assignments from the SM and fill in for the SM if needed. Asst. Scoutmaster New Scout Patrol, Work with the Troop Guide to help scouts achieve First Clas near the end of their First year of Boy Scouting. Asst Scoutmaster Venture Patrol- assist Venture PL when needed to coordinate and attend high adventure activities. Each patrol establishes its own identity through Patrol identification, Flags, call, cheer, unique optional uniform pieces, interests, etc. Each patrol member has a patrol office and their participation is needed for the maximum operational level of the patrol. Patrols are encouraged to develop to the point whare adult participation and oversight is not required. Patrols are never combined. It takes no more work to hike or camp with two people as it does with 8. So if only two Panther patrol are camping then they camp as the Panther Patrol with just their two members. If they are competing in a relay against a patrol of 8 then they can each run the 4 times, but you keep them as the panther patrol. Combining patrols puts bioys under the leadership of someone they had no vote in choosing. Not a good situation. When any new member joins below tyhe rank of First Class they become a member of a new scout patrol. If you have enough members to form more than one new scout patrol then the scout can choose which NSP he wants to join. Upon earning First Class the scouts can choose to either remain in their current groupiong and become a regular patrol OR they can choose to join an existing regular patrol providing there is room. If three scouts wanted to stay together and there was no room in any one existing regular patrol then they can form a new patrol. All activities operate through the patrol. Patrols plan their own menus, do their own cooking, have their own camp area, have specific troop meeting responsibilities etc. There is more but this should be enough to get things started. Do you see how this works? can you see the advantages of this method? Can you see areas where you use the Patrol Method and areas where you could improve? Let's talk. Bob

Great questions! in order to remain on topic though let's move this to a new thread. Watch for it in the Patrol Method board. Bob

dsteele is right. All adult volunteer positions positions in scouting are for one year. Since the Unit district and Council charters are all one year in length, every serves a one year term. It would be impractical to make any promises before that. The district chair gets to select the district committee chairs. If the Nominating committee selects a new District Chair he/she has the obligation to select committee chairs that will make a good team for him/her, in order to do the best possible job. I do support voluntary term limits. I think it takes two-years to learn most leadership positions. So I only serve 3-6 years in any position. (3 because I owe it to the task, 6 if its a task I like doing! )

Interesting questions kwc57 I understand the concept of patrols coming together to form a troop....in theory, but not in practicality. It is only theory as long as you continue to not do it. Once you accept the concept and operate according to it then it becomes practical application. Right? When the Webelos come to visit they visit a troop meeting, But, what they should have pointed out to them, and what will be obvious if the patrol method is used, is that the meeting is a gathering of small, easily identifiable, separate patrols, under youth leadership. It should be explained to them (by the Troop Guide) that they will be joining a New Scout Patrol which for their first year will develop their outdoor skills, and teach them the basics of patrol and troop operations. After they reach First Class rank they will have the choice of staying together to become a regular patrol OR they can choose to join an existing regular patrol if it has an opening. As they grow in strength and knowledge they will have an opportunity in a few years to join a high adventure Venture patrol. Explain that as a skilled scout in a good patrol they will have many opportunities to do hiking camping and other activities on there own. In addition to that their patrol will join other patrols on occasion to hike and camp, canoe, ski, etc. as a troop. Show them how the patrols each take a responsibility for the troop meeting. Hawk patrol is service patrol this month. They were responsible for setting up the meeting room and cleaning up afterwards, Cobra patrol is the program patrol. They are responsible for Opening and closing ceremonies. The Flamming Arrows are putting on a presentation later on How to pack for a canoe trip we have coming up next month. And the Assist. Senior Patrol Leader learned a new game at Roundtable last month that the Patrols are going to play later tonight. Now is this a theoretical Troop meeting? Only if you are not yet using the patrol method. Can it be a practical Troop meeting every week? Only if you practice the Patrol Method. One last thing. But often the patrols are decided at a different level than the boys picking and choosing isn't it? Not if you are following the program. Who chooses their friends at school? Who chooses their friends in the neighborhood? Who chooses their friends at camp? Why is it a boy not in scouting gets to choose his own friends but we think a boy in scouting needs to be assigned friends? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed There is no need to be so hard on yourself. I have never said you were an idiot. I don't know you well enough to even know if you are an idiot. I only know from your own posts that you say you do not follow many of the basic methods of the scouting scouting program. I would hope that if a scenario came up where the scout the scout was only going to come to one meeting a month and make 4 or 5 campouts a year you would listen to his explaination of why, consider his abilities, his past history in the program and his future goals and determine together if that was enough time. Here is an example. The troop meets on Monday nights. The scout (we will call him Bob) is meeting with you for his SMC for Star scout. In asking about his goals he tells you that he plans to achieve Eagle. Bob has been an active Jr. leader in the past and is a fine young man. But Bob is a Junior and has hopes to attend the Air Force Academy. He is also the VP of the National Honor Society at his High School and is in the Band. The NHS meets after school on the second Monday. On the third Monday of the month he volunteers at a local shelter for the homeless. On weekends he delivers food with the local Meals on Wheels program. Not only does he enjoy these activities but they will help him toward his goal of attending the Academy. So Bob explains that with the extra pressure to get the needed high grades on top of other responsibilities Troop meetings will be tough. Bob only needs two MB and his project for eagle and he will continue to work on that. You agree that troop meetings will be a challenge but urge him to make as many as possible because his presence is a big influence on the younger scouts. You remind him of the great places the PLC has planned for outings and that he will miss a lot and he agrees to make at least half the events. Finaly you remind him he still needs to actrively serve in a leadership position. you suggest that he heads up a special project by publishing an e-mail newsletter for the troop. A task he can do from home. Bob agrees. Now you tell me is this caving in? Skating? Or is this a good young man growing up with scout values and ethics? Is this a difficult leadership style to incorporate? Perhaps for some. Bob PS Your argument in the second post is ridiculous (I'm sorry but I can't be more PC than that) The BSA sets the mission of BSA. To say that it could be something else merely because it doesn't say that it isn't something else is illogical. You've used this in the past on other topics. It was irrelevent then and it is irrelevent now. BW

Dan, No one is talking excuses here. we are talking about Talking. It's about letting Scouts be part of the process of setting and evaluating their own goals. Why would anyone be opposed to that? Go ahead and look Dan. If you find it as you say, it is a typo. I have followed, used and taught the patrol method for decades and I have always maintained that patrols are not combined and that the patrol functions with as many members as is present. That is how you build peer pressure to make the others attend. Make their absence noticable and their individual participation important to the success of the patrol. If you allowed patrols to ebb and flow membership whenever someone was missing then they would not be able to see how their presence is missed. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

MARK!!!!!! Kudus to you and the methods used in the troop you serve. The handbook says that the activity requirement is measured by "being there". So this is an attendance issue. Just as in scout spirit, the best person to set the activity goal is the scout himself (according to the Boy Scout Handbook), during the Scoutmaster Conference. The activity level needs to be unique to the individual scout. Who is responsible for knowing the needs of each scout? The Scoutmaster. What tool is the SM given to discuss and discover these needs and characteristics? The Scoutmaster Conference. When are goals set? The Scoutmasters Conference. When are the requirements of the next rank reviewed? At the Scoutmasters Conference. If the goals are the scout's then he knows if he met them or not. All you have to do is ask him how he thinks he is doing on his goal and review the numbers with him to let him self-evaluate his own performance. This is one way teach goal setting, planning, evaluating. It should not be used to re-test. So what is a good attendance figure? Talk to each scout and find out. Good Job Mark! BW

Whoa Dan! There were no quote marks around that statement. You wondered whether scouting should be as demandind as sports. I offered that such a positioning would not be in the best interest of the scouts or the program. My son is a good basketball player. When he went into Jr. High he wanted to join the team. At sign-up he was told by the coach that the players were not allowed to participate in any other extra curricular activity during the season "whether school related or not." My son turned to me and said "let's go". He said no one other then his mom and dad would decide that. He would have to miss scouts, drum lessons, band, and a church committment to play 7th grade sports. Sorry but that is not a mentally healthy adult (in other words...he's nuts). That is not an uncommon expectation of youth leaders in many activities not just sports. It is not the philosophy of the BSA movement. Now in the name of accuracy.... I NEVER said that if some or most patrol members could not attend an event that the others should not go. I said the patrol becomes however many in the patrol shows up. If only two members of the Hawk patrol are going on the campout then the Hawk patrol camps with two people. Yes, I did agree that one of B-Ps basic tenents of the patrol method is you do not combine patrols. combining them goes against the very purpose and design of the patrol. If the bears show up to a game without their defensive line (a situation not all that uncommon for the Bears) they are not lent players from another team or folded into another teams player roster. you play with the team you show up with. Troops are not divided into patrols. patrols gather to form a troop. Never combine patrols, IF you want to get the full reward of the patrol method. But we digress, lets stay on Measuring "be active in your troop and patrol". > Who decides what that means? > When is it decided? > When is it measured? > Who measures it? Who would like to take a stab at these specific questions? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Watching sports these days for young boys, I do not see that it teaches them anything, but win at all cost and this is your life for the next X number of months." Isn't this what some Scoutmasters do when they make the Eagle Scout Rank the purpose or goal for being a scout(as many do)? "Yes, but if we allow scouts to skate through" No one is saying skate, I am asking how do we measure this one requirement properly? " I understand attendance isn't the measure of a Scout. Committment to the Scouting program is." Really? Show me where that is written. Every thing I have learned says that a scout is measured by the way he lives the Oath and Law. Can't that be done without a specific level of activity? How does someone measure the degree of another persons committment. Dan, Scouting is not and was not designed to operate in a vacuum of scouting. To want or expect or worse demand that a boy make scouting his only activity you do a great diservice to the boy and to the program. Scouting is meant to be the seasoning that gives the flavor to the steak of life. It is what gives direction and structure to the other activities. You cannot make a meal of just the seasoning. Boys have a limited time to explore the world around them before they are reined in by the responsibilities of adulthood. I would never deter them from an opportunity to explor activities that add to their growth such as, sports, arts, travel, education, service. It is not the scouts responsibility to be at every scout event or do everything right. It is our responsibility as Scout leaders to make them WANT to be at every scout activity and to WANT to learn how to do things right. I hope this thread is getting folks thinking about what "Be Active in your troop and patrol" means? How do we measure it? Who sets the limits? Who Measures it? When is it decided and measured? Keep a goin' Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Let me pose another question. "If a Scout is involved in sports, band & church group as well as Scouts he is very busy and something is going to suffer." Really? Who? The scout who is participating in activities that give him a variety of experiences and growth? The Scouting Movement that makes boys promise to stay physically fit and rewards participation in organized sports, recoginize a duty to God, and has troop offices and advancement based on musicianship? The church for having an active member that belives a person should be reverent? The band or sports team that has a member of good character and an understanding of sportsmanship and teamwork? Where exactly is the suffering? Perhaps the Scoutmaster, who looks more at attendance than at the the evidence of scouting in action beyond the limits of the troop meeting. If where the scout is on troop meeting night is more important to the adult leader than WHO the scout is in everyday life, perhaps a little suffering is a good. Bob White

Keep going! We have some very diverse opinions here, but lets stay on topic. Let's just discuss the Requirement for "be active in your troop and patrol". You raise good points jbroganjr but I don't see their relevance to this topic. Most of your post deals with either the "actively serve in a leadership position" or on questions best left to the Board of Review or Scoutmaster Conference. (I would have real difficulty allowing 2 1/2 of your three Eagle questions at a board or in a SMC.) The activity requirement is a separate issue that we are addressing. So how do find a measurement of activity? Who sets it? Who decides if it was met? When is all this accomplished? Bob White

Ingersol Scout Reservation, IL Camp Robert Drake, IL Rotary Scout Camp, NY Philmont, NM

A very wise SM who I trained under many moons ago taught me that homesickness was brought on three things, either individually or in combination. The longer I'm in scouting the truer his words become. The three things that I learned cause homesickness are...lack of sleep, hunger, boredom. I have learned that if you keep them fed, keep them busy and get them to bed at a reasonable hour, you won't have problems with homesickness. At least that has been my experience. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As usual dsteele I agree with just about everything you wrote. I will ask you to reconsider one thing though because I think as a professional your take on this is vital. You wrote I'm not going to get into whether boards of review should test the Scout's knowledge. That is mostly left up to the unit to determine. Or council/district board of review as the case may be." This is not at all in keeping with the BSA advancement policies that are very specific about not retesting skills at the Board of Review or during the Scoutmasters Council. Far too many adults have used re-testing as a tool to humiliate scouts or too stall advancement of boys they considered "too young" or "advanceing too quickly". As you said, it's the character that counts and that is what these two personal growth opportunities are there to examine. thanks, BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

A lot has been posted in a few different strings regarding the vagueness of the "Be active..." requirements for Star, Life and Eagle Ranks. First we need to separate it from the Leadership requirement of "actively serve in a leadership role" They are separate and unrelated. You can fulfill one and not the other. So do not tie them together. As far as active, there are some points I'd like to make and then some questions I would like to pose. First read the requirement as printed in the hand book, in the case of the Star rank, "Be active in your troop and patrol for at least four months as a First Class Scout. This is not about just making troop meetings and troop campouts. This is a combination of troop and patrol. If you are not using the Patrol Method then how can you measure this at all? Secondly, If you knew someone who was raising triplets and was a Sunday school teacher, you might say they were very active. If you knew a single person who was a traveling sales representative and gone 5 days a week you might say they were active. A track coach, PE teacher, who was a Red Cross volunteer and in the Army reserves could seen as very busy. But, only if you understood their life outside of just one aspect of it. For instance, if I didn't understand that the Sunday School teacher was raising a large infant brood I might not appreciate how active they are in the church, considering how active they are outside. Can you truly and fairly judge an individuals "activity" without understanding their entire situation? Can the BSA accurately and fairly set an activity standard that reflected the lifestyles and characteristics of every scout? Who best can set that measurement (hint: someone other than the SM)? When should this measurement be set? (hint: The advancement program has a specific time for this) Who should determine if the goal was met? (hint: not the scoutmaster) I think after we discuss this the requirement will make much more sense to everyone. Bob White

SM406, You are to be commended for your understanding of, and committment to, the real methods and purpose of the Scoutmaster Conference and the Board of Rview. It is the personal growth of the scout that counts. The skills of camping are but one tool we use to reach those goals. A scout who makes ethical decisions based on the values of the Oath and Law is a true scout, even if he cannot tie a clove hitch. OGE... Sing it Brother! Bob White PS. I readily accept that most times when leaders do the wrong thing it is from the lack of knowledge. Where I get ruffled to the max is when the leader refuses to learn, or worse yet knows the scouting method but refuses to follow it. (As we witness here on a regular basis).

Hi EagleWB, Certainly the way you decsribe the process in your council is one way to do Eagle Boards. In the Council I serve they do it differently. Each unit holds it's own Boards with a representative of the Council or District Advancement Committee as one of the members. Some of the common questions during Boards I have participated in include. "When you consider the points of the Scout Law, which one or ones do you think describe you the best and give us some examples." "When you consider the points of the Scout Law which one do you think you have grown better at or gained a greater appreciation of over the years, and give some examples." "The Scout Motto is 'Be Prepared', what has scouting helped yo to be prepared for?" Give us some examples. "The merit badge program is designed to expose you to activities that could interest you in a career or hobby. Which merit badge topics have done this for you? give us an example." "What activities in scouting do you remember themost and why?" "You've had opportunities to make plans, set goals, and follow through on them. What goals do you have set beyond Eagle Scout, both in and out of scouting?" "Who do you look up to as a hero or mentor and why?" "What has scouting taught you about leading or following others?" "If someone were to ask you about joining scouts, what you tell them was the best reason to join your troop? What would you warn them about?" "Are there any scouting skills you feel you could not instruct others in? Do you think people will expect an Eagle Scout to be a competent camper and instructor? What are things you could do to improve your scouting skills?" "Over the years you have performed many service hours. What project(s) have had the biggest impact on you and why?" "If you could give the adults any piece of advice to make the troop better, what would you tell them?" "If you could share one piece of advice with new scouts to make their scouting experience better, what would you tell them." Questions that encourage the scout to look inside himself and converse with you will give you far more information than questions that can be answered in two words or less. Hope this helps, Bob White

He treated every scout as a work in progress. BW We became good friends over the years, he passed awy recently...I miss him.

The National web site has a link to some helpful commissioner service information. In there is something that might be of interest for many commissioners and many members of this discussion board. As you know a Cub Scout Leader can only be reigistered in one position in the pack. But were you aware that a commissioner is not to hold any other unit leadership position, or other commissioner positions? Here is what the BSA says. (and remember don't slay the messenger if you don't like the message). "Commissioners must not be registered simultaneously as unit leaders. Some commissioners may be registered on a unit committee because they have a son in the unit or because of previous personal history in the unit, but their principle Scouting obligation should be with commissioner responsibilities. Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position." I know this affects commissioners in our local District and according to the biographies on this board it affects many here as well. Just thought I share. Bob White

My apologies to the other posters. When Ed attacked me personally in his post for sharing the contents of the BSA policies, I should have used the personal messsaging to respond and not the public board. I forget that option was available to me. I will PM Ed on this instead. BW

Summer Camp, family vacations, summer jobs, JLT, Wood Badge, High adventure trip, Patrol outings, Troop campouts. We have more activities in the summer than the rest of the year, giving up 2 Troop meetings a month seems like a small price to pay. Bob

Troops I have been associated with have always gone to a reduced schedule (like every other week)June through August, but maintained an outdoor activity each month. Bob

I had a participant at a Scout Roundtable conference bring a pre-opening activity called "You Don't Know Scat". He had collected the scat of various woodland creatures, let them dy and then mounted them on a board. The scat was then covered in a poly-urethane coat to seal them. The challenge of course was to identify the animal that left the droppings. It was very funny and very educational as well. Bob