Bob White

ED! I didn't say sign off on his scout spirit. But if you have a Scoutmaster conference with him have the character to sign the book saying you had it. Would it do any harm to show more integrity than the scout did? Aren't you supposed to be the role-model? If you did a SM conference why wouldn't you sign it? The SM conference is not something you pass or fail. You either have done one or you haven't.

Twocubdad, I don't think you read my post. I said that his behavior showed he was not ready to be approved on his scout spirit. I do have to disagree with a gross generalization you made. "Certainly a 12-year-old doesn't have the leadership, maturity, or emotional faculties of a 17-year-old." Which 12-year old? Which 17-year old? This is precisely why we have the Scoutmaster conference. A good Boy Scout leader evalutes each scout on their individual abilities and characteristics not simply by their age. Bob White

Please answer honestly Ed, If you discovered that a scout had lied to you, would sit down with him to let him know you know he lied? would you ask him why? Would you talk with him about how that behavior could damage his life. Would you ask him what it means to be trustworthy? Would you ask him if he felt his behavior reflected a trustworthy character? Would you ask him what kind of behavior you and others will be able to expect from him. would you try to get him back onto the scouting trail? Would you explain that you could not in good conscience approve his scout spirit until he regains your trust through his behavior for the next several weeks and then work with him to determine a time period. If you do this with this scout then you have just held a SM conference, and you have the same obligation to sign the scoutmaster conference on his advancement as he has to act in a trustworthy manner. So Ed would you do this with the scout? Bob White

I'm sorry to hear you're not playing on this one Ed. "Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life" is a different requirement from "Participate in a Scoutmaster conference". You cannot refuse to sign one because he failed to satisfy the other. Not being trustworthy has nothing to do with meeting with the scoutmaster. But it has everything to do with scout spirit. You wouldn't refuse to sign his swimming requirement if he couldn't tie a clove hitch would you? You need to look at each requirement individually. It is an important difference that every scoutmaster needs to know. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I hate the idea of the Boy Scouts basically saying, "You're kind is not welcome here" to anyone." Think about that statement Zahnada. ANYONE? You can't think of any trait that you would not want your son exposed to? Bestiality? Necrophilia? Pedophilia? Obscenity? Transvestite? Drug addict? Dope dealer? Wife beater? Alcoholic? Reckless driver? You don't want anyone banned from scouting? or you just don't want the BSA to ban traits that you aren't bothered by? Not directing homosexual minors to homosexual agencies is not deeming them unworthy to help. it's simply not what the BSA is here to do. We are not a social agency. We are not a social service clearing house. We are an educational organization specializing in character, citizenship and fitness development. If you have special needs outside of this area there are organizations that specialize in directing you to help. But, to direct youth to the homosexual services in the community is not our mission or area of expertise. Bob White, PS It seems every time the United Way cuts funds from Boy Scouts it is heralded or decried as the United Way striking out at the BSA's stance on homosexuality. Well this week our local UW posted the budget for 2003-2004 in our county. Three organizations were cut by nearly $15,000 each. The first was Boy Scouts (no doubt policy related right?), the second was Girl Scouts (but wait, they don't dicriminate!) The third organization cut by nearly $15000 was that vial, homophobic organization.....the United Way Agency. Dsteele is right. The Scouting movement is in great shape. Funding comes and goes in waves. The county North of us (also in our council) Increased their share to us by nearly as much as this one cut. As GWB would say "stay the course". (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Would you pass a scout on a S.M. conference if he had lied to you about why he couldn't go on an outing?" Of course I would! Why? Because meeting the requirement for the Scoutmasters Conference does include whether or not a scout tells the truth. That character trait would only affect the Scout Spirit requirement. For the Scoutmaster's conference the scout and I need to have a conversation to learn more about him, to set future goals, evaluate his contribution to the Patrol and Troop, and evaluate the patrol and troops performance. But the Scout Spirit requires that he live according to the oath and law . So no, I would not approve his Scout Spirit requirement at that time. (Unless he was advancing to Tenderfoot, which has no scout spirit requirement.) Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I will offer that the chances are slim to none that you can create a meeting that will be interest to oilder scouts. Why? Because you are not a tenage boy. It takes older scouts to plan events interesting to older scouts. What you can do is teach them how to take what interestest them and make it a plan rather than a wish. You can train the leaders how to listen to their patrol members in a way that will encourage them to speak up and get involved in the troop or patrol. Have the scouts make a list of the things they would do in an ideal year of scouting. Have them select specific activities and place them on a calendar. find scout skills or merit badges leadership skills that are associated with those events and turn them into monthly themes to prepare the scouts for their events. Have fun Bob White

Actually not Twocubdad, you said relative to the Oath and Law you are OK. Specifically you have taken an oath to your country, and when, as your SM I show you that (along with a scout is obedient)being a good scout and good citizen requires you to obey the laws of your community. Had you done that, you would not have been arrested. So that is indeed a measuarable requirement that you did not meet. It simply takes the scout to reflect on his actions and to share that reflect with the SM for evaluation. "I am sorry to to say that you have not met the requirement for scout sprit at this time. However that does not mean it cannot be met. Let's agree on a reasonable length of time during which you can show that you are capable of living according to the Oath and Law. At the end of that period I would be able to approve your advancement." "But let's not do that right now. I'd like to first learn more about why you got in trouble and see how we can help you to live a life that you, and those who care about, can be proud of." See it just takes a little time, and an understanding of the advancement program. (Available from your local district/council Training Team. Operators are waiting to take your call.) Bob White

twocubdad The requirement you sight has a specific measurable task that every scout needs to perform, as do nearly all advancement requirements. There are only three that do not. Those three require the SM to actually talk to and learn about the scout, and they require the scout to set and meet goals and expectations that he helps to set. It is not about flexible requirements. it is about personalized expectations. Bob White

Jbroganjr, although something you wrote spurred my post you are by no means the topic of the post. Heres what it means according to my dictionary to be a Devils Advocate A person who advocates an opposing or unpopular view, often for the sake of argument. By your explanation of how you introduce a topic, it does not fit the definition. If you were to argue a defense for not recruiting scouts, or against FOS that would qualify as being a devils advocate. I dont see by what you have written that this is the method you use. Although Roundtable is an element of supplemental training, the purpose of RT is to provide unit leaders the Will To Do and the Skill To Do a quality scouting program in the unit they serve. I do not see how creating an argument in support of policies or methods that oppose those of the current scouting program would help in either of these two areas. There are far more positive and effective teaching methods at our disposal that I would recommend never using the devils advocate position as a way to meet the mission of roundtable or Scouting. Bob White

Remember the requirement is not to hold office, it says you must actively serve. Bob

Again it is the scout's choice to remain together or join existing regular patrols. The deal is the boys choose the group they hang with just like in real life. Remember this is more of a gang than a corporate department. if you want boys to stay in the program and to be active in the program they need to enjoy the patrol they are in. You cannot pick other peoples friends for them. Don't think that older boys need to lead younger ones. They will get the same leadership experience and learning from leading scouts their own age or older as they do from leading younger ones. The troop Guide is their not so he can get to lead younger scouts, but so that younger scouts can begin to be trained in the program and have an immediate role model. After they are first class and are comfortable outdoors and have a basic understanding of troop operaqtion they will have lots of opportunities to interact with older scouts. Bob White

I'll tell you why I asked these questions. Keep in mind this is based only on my experiences in corporate and scouting training, and on a number of trainer courses I have participated in within the education, corporate and scouting arenas. It is my experience that... 1. The biggest contributors to the spread of scouting myths are trainers who embellish or vary from the syllabus. Adding local information such as council and district boundaries, local names, and local resources is as embellished as we should go. Every time I hear a trainer say "well when I was a Scout" I brace myself for a barrage of useless information. 2. As Districts and Councils get larger, training gets farther away from the trainee. Time is precious to volunteers and they often judge the value of training by travel time. The days of offering courses in a central location twice-a-year are gone. Trainers must take the training to the trainees and we must do it frequently. Solo staffs can do the majority of Cub training, and SM Leader Specific, Intro to Outdoor Skills, BALOO, and Webelos Leader Outdoor need to be done three or four times a year minimum. 3. I highly recommend trainers be selected by their ability to communicate and their dedication to stick to the syllabus. Everything else can be taught to them. I would also make completion of the Trainer Development BSA 500 course required. 4. We use Unit Trainers to 1. promote training and encourage attendance. 2. To deliver training directly to their unit volunteers, once they have been approved to do so. 5. Devil's Advocate may be effective in some circles but scouting isn't one of them. Scouts and leaders alike have very limited face-time in front of instructors. In order to maximize learning it is imoportant for instructors to say and do the right thing. A learner should not picture a method or recall information from a scout training and have to ask themselves "was that one of the times they were telling me the right thing to do, or the wrong thing to do?" When setting the example always set a good example..and scouters and trainers should always be setting the example. Bob White

According to the US Governments Health and Human Services website the.... COVERED ENTITIES In HIPAA, Congress required health plans, health care clearinghouses, and those health care providers who conduct certain financial and administrative transactions electronically (such as eligibility, referral authorizations and claims) to comply with each set of final standards. Other businesses may voluntarily comply with the standards, but the law does not require them to do so. So Scout camps are not required to abide by the HIPPA practices. Hope this helps, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed I agree that the methods you have pretended to practice have helped spur debate and conversation. But think of the readers who may confuse your devil's advocacy with actual scouting beliefs and methods. Don't forget one of the lessons of our Wood Badge training "Setting the Example". It taught us to always set the right example. It would be unfortunate if even one scout did not recieve the best scouting experience they could have, simply because a leader followed one of your bad examples thinking you were being serious. You would do far more to 'help other people' if you answered their questions accurately and directly rather than confusing the issue and stirring the pot simply because you love a good debate. just a thought, Bob White

One Hour, I really think the best resource you have to achieve your goal is the Boy Scout Handbook and the best syllabus to follow is the trail from Tenderfoot to First Class. That is designed to give scouts the basic skills needed to be safe and comfortable camping. Bob

27 and 5. we also have a number of specialty outposts and a Trail to First class program.

The only thing I would alter is step 1. I'd make that "make a list of the program goals you want to accomplish in the comong program year." That way as you develop the plan you can evalute it by seeing if you are fulfilling the goals. BW

Relax Ed, I wasn't making any assumptions, I was developing conclusions based on your posts. However none of that matters if mk9750 got it right (as you say he has) when he suggested that you have been playing the devil's advocate and that you really follow more of the program then you let on. "But I'm guessing you really do more things the "right way" then you let on, don't you?" So if the impressions you gave us in the past were merely for provoking dicussion and you really don't do those things, that's great. You might consider a change in tactics and post what how you actually follow the real scouting program. I personally think it would be more beneficial to the inexperienced leaders on the board looking for support and an understanding of how to make the training come alive. I'm relieved to know you were just playing the devil's advocate (mk9750, Bingo! Right on the money!) Bob White

"Those type of people shouldn't be in scouting!" That's the point OneHour. There are a lot of people who are in scouting who shouldn't be, so it is immportant to follow the program and heed the recommended practices. They come from nearly 100 years of experience. Bob White

kwc57 is right on the money. Bob

its says the the troop and only the troop" Actually that's not true. It says troop and patrol, two different sets of groups. "What I am saying is that you cant consider a boy active if he does not attend outings or meetings.. And I think everyone here agrees. The question is how many, and who decides. I offer that the scout and scoutmaster determine this based on each individual scout during the SMC rather than a blanket number determined only by an adult or adults without consideration for the scout. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, If what Mk9750 is right, and you lead differently then what you write in your posts, you have done yourself a great disservice, and brought relief to many of us. We were really concerned. Over the year your posts have lead us to believe that you do not trust 12-year olds to elect their own leaders, that you assign meritbadges, that you have a 50% or greater drop off rate, that you limit or restrain advancement based on age or maturity rather than completion of requirements, that you judge scout spirit by attendance and other glaring leadership errors. You have supported the use of tobacco in front of scouts in direct violation of the Youth Protection training, and have shown a general lack of understanding of the Patrol Method and other scouting methods. You have routinely insulted volunteers and professionals serving at the council and national levels of scouting service. All this because you played the devils advocate without letting on that you really did not do this awfull things. To further confuse us you pretended to be dismissive and argumentative if anyone uses the actual scouting program resources to counter your opinion. If you ware actually playing devil's advocate, at some point you should change your posts to support the actual scouting program or I and others will continue to think that you really believed all the misinformation and improper methods that you continued to support. For instance when you played devils advocate and wrote "In my unit, I do what is best for the Scouts, not the adults." You probably were really thinking...'In the unit I serve We follow the Scouting program and not what the SM personal opinion is of what is best for the scouts.' Am I right? I am relieved to find out you don't actual impose your need to excercise your personal authority in the ways you have described in your posts. You would accomplish much more for the scouting program if you wrote about the methods you actually believed in and supported, rather than give the false impression that you were a trained leader who didn't understand or follow the scouting program. Glad to hear you don't actually do as you have written, I look forward to reading you fully support this program, and reflect the proper methods in your posts. welcome back, Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ron, No one is saying to sign-off on the requirement if the scout hasn't met it yet. What the program is saying is that the requirement needs to take into consideration the uniqueness of each scout, and that the goal ultimately needs to be set by the scout. He needs ownership of the goal in order to grow and learn from it. And the SM needs to understand that you cannot set one number and expect a one-size-fits-all solution. It is the SM resonsibility to help the scout set meaningful achievable goals based on the needs and characteristics of each individual scout. That is the purpose of the Scoutmasters Conference.

Excess money usually oocurs when units make fundraising a goal and then develop a program based on the money they earned, rather than planning a program then determining the budget that would be needed and planning fundraisers to support the budget. The BSA recommends that fundraising should not be the program but should support the planned program. Because of this the vast majority of money raised should be spent the year it was raised on the scouts and families who were in the unit that year. See the video "the Ideal Year of Scouting". Excessive funds are dangerous. They are a temptation for abuse and all to often the emphasis on maintaining a big balance becomes more important than spending money on program and resources. Something to think about. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)