Bob White

I have different uniforms for different purposes. When working with scouts I wear a knot that reflects my activity when I was a scout, my jamboree patch, a recent activity patch, OA flap, WB beads. When training I wear 6 knots, mostly training and service related. Jambo patch, Philmont patch, WB beads, district office patch. For COH or when doing featured speaker stuff I wear what my wife calls my General's uniform. Same as above but add service pins, neck ribbon, WB neckerchief and Woggle, knot pins. I was hesitant to do this at first but was asked to deliver a talk at an Eagle court and the scouts and some leaders were disappointed that I wore a rather bare uniform. They said they liked the dressed up one because some of the awards are not seen that often and they enjoyed it. I don't wear everything, just enough to promote the program and get people to ask "what is that one from?". I dont put everything Ive received on it and my wife keeps me in line. "It's Ok to dress as a general from time to time" she says "just don't look like the Emperor" I have seen guys who have enough stuff on the front to stop a bullet, and I have no problem with that if it is an appropriate occasion and if the stuff is worn correctly. A lot depends on the attitude of the wearer more so than what they are wearing. Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Consider using the outdoor event of the month as a springboard for troop meeting planning. Lets say the PLC wants to go canoeing in June, We ask them to think about what needs to be done before then. They should consider, safe swim defense, swim tests, safety afloat, packing for a canoe trip, basic canoe strokes, parts of the canoe, classification of currents, reading the current, basic water rescue, First aid for likely injuries (sunburn, blisters, heatstroke, hypothermia). As you can see selecting the activity and then using troop meetings to prepare for them generates a slew of program ideas and easily fills up a months worth of meetings. It also provides a ton of advancement opportunities for younger scouts, introduces several merit badge topics for the older scouts, gives the older scouts opportunities to share their knowledge and creates opportunities to bring in community experts to train on topics. This method can be reaped for any scout-like activity the scouts are interested in. Hope this helps, Bob White

He believes in a higher being but is not sure about God? What does he call this higher being? How does he show the required reverence and service to this higher being? Why did you not mention that this is a good subject to discuss with his parents because they have a deeper background in their religion and the role it plays in bringing up their children? Why did you not explain to the child that it is irresponsible of you to hide things from the parents? Why if his beliefs are not harmful to the scout or a violation of the scouting principles did you not say that ther was nothing in what he said that needed to be hidden? What if the scouts first two answers put him in conflict with the principles of scouting and affected his membership? How would you have kept your promise not to tell the parents? It is irresponsible of Scouting volunteers to keep secrets from the parents of the scouts. If you feel this is something you must do then become a Priest, Minister, Rabbi, or physician. They at least have a code that requires confidentiality. No such code of behavior exists in scouting. No training you have ever recieved and no BSA materials have instructed you to keep secrets from parents and legal guardiaans. This is a dangerous practice and a bad example to set for the children. You need to seriously reconsider this behavior. Bob White

Sorry Ed, But it is difficult to tell when you are pulling our leg and when you are serious. How about your responsibility to be trustworthy to the adult guardian of that child. They have as much if not more reason to expect you to be trustworthy to them. They trust you to help teach their son, they have a reasonable expectation that you will not be keeping secrets from them. Again, a child who wants to share something with you that you cannot share with parents is taking advanctage of you. Hiding things from his parents is not trustworthy on his part. I would agree there are some things that might seem big to a child that we evaluate as small. As an example.A scout tells you he has a crush on a girl at school and asks you not to tell his parents because he is a little embarrased (actually happened). I would not volunteer the info to the parents, but if they asked me directly about it I would have told them what I knew. The scout needs to know that we reserve the right to evaluate the information and do what we feel is in their best interest. We should not be keeping secrets from parents or teaching children that it is appropriate to keep secrets from parents. That is a tool often employed by child abusers and should not be used in scouting by anyone, youth or adult. (see the YP video training).

Ditto Eamonn Bob

Ed, When all else fails, read the requirements in the Boy Scout Handbook. Serving actively in a leadership position is required. Plan and give leadership to a service project is required. Tell me Ed, other than planning a project where in the Eagle Scout requirements does it list specific leadership skills that must be used or displayed? It doesn't. If the scoutmaster has done the job correctly, the scout will know and understand specifc leadership skills. If the scoutmaster has done the job correctly the scout will have had opportunityto practice and implement those skills. For instance, junior leaders who have been taught the skill of evaluation would have opportunities to practice by evaluating things at the patrol and troop level, things like evaluating meeting, campoputs, advancement requirements. The scouting program suggests that these things are done by scouts to train them in vital leadership skills. Choosing their own advancement trail with the meritbadge program allows them to develop planning and goal setting. Having them elect their own leadership and the SPL choose the troop junior leadership helps them to evaluate the needs and characteristics of others and recognize human resources. Having Patrols hike and camp on thier own develops, planning, setting the example, situational management, representing the group, and more. So leadership skill is something we give to them. They can only employ what we have allowed them too learn and prractice. Bob White

Zahnada, So let's take this step-by-step. 1. A scout makes public that he is gay. (We are not in the business of "finding" an individuals sexual orientation.) 2. By the rules, we are to explain the membership requirements in the BSA to the scout and his parents or guardians. 3. Recommend to the parents or guardians that he seek counseling through his family, church or physician to determine if he is making a mature decision. 4. Abide by the membership rules of the BSA That's it. As an adult leader we are here to provide the scouting program to qualified members. I care about each scout I have ever served, but only within the appropriate framework as a scout leader. We are not their parent, We Are not their confessor, We are not their psychologist or caseworker. It is inappropriate for a scout leader to act as any of those things. I also care about youth not in scouting, but not within the framework of being a scout leader or a representative of the scouting program. "Yes, I hate to see pedophiles, rapists, sex-offenders, drug-addicts, and any other undesirable turned away from scouts. I hate it because these people live an unscoutlike lifestyle. That's why it saddens me. I'm sad that the world is not made up of Boy Scouts." Then be sad that they behave that way, that I can accept. But why in world would you sadden yourself because the BSA does not open the doors to those people. I would think you would be relieved that we do not knowingly expose children to their behaviors. "And I do not consider gays automatically undesirable based solely on their sexual orientation." Niether does the BSA. They consider homosexuals as well as a number of other social behaviors as ineligible for membership because of their inapropriateness as role models or their inability to support the mission or scouting. The BSA has never said these were bad people only that their chosen actions are inappropriate for the mission of this private organization. I hope that clarifies things, Bob White

Sctmom, unless you are prepared to report the parents to the authorities you had better refer the scout to the parents. You have no legal or moral authority as a volunteer in scouting to exclude the parents or legal guardians. I applaud your intentions but you will not be helping the scout or the family by placing your opinion above those of his real parents or guardians. Bob White

"Is it really a "gross generalizaion" to say there is a difference in leadership, maturitity and emotional development between 12- and 17-year olds?" Yes, I believe it is. Here is why. A scoutmaster has two responsibilities. Train Junior leaders, and understand the needs and characteristics of each individual scout in the troop. Once you start making generalization such based soley on age you blind yourself to the individual character of each scout. It's important that scouts be evaluated on who they are as separate people. Leadership skill is not age dependent it has to do with training and practice, just because one scout is older does not guarantee that he has had either. Had you simply said that some 12-year old boys do not have the same maturity, skills, or leadership abilitiesas some 17-year olds that would be accurate. But to say a 12-yearold and a a7-year old, is simply not true. I have seen many nmany situations that would disprove that. One other point Twocubdad. You mentioned "A few weeks ago in another thread regarding young Eagles, the conversation was hot and heavy that 12 & 13 year olds don't have the maturity and leadership skills to meet the standards of an Eagle Scout." I just wanted to remind you that one of the main thrusts of that discussion was that the premise was wrong. There are no maturity or leadership skills required for Eagle. There is leadership service required but I do not know of leadership skills required. The plan is that the skills will be learned during the service and through training from a responsible Scoutmaster. The thoughts that, Eagle Rank as a maturity requirement, 13-year olds are not mature enough for Eagle, and that a 17-year is automatically more mature or more skilled than a younger scout, all are faulty premises and can only lead to faulty conclusions. Bob White PS there goes Ed playing devil's advocate again. I'll bet he knows that if the advancement requirenment was signed off by an approved person then there is no taking it back. He can deal with the two parties (the signer and the signee) but it is a violation of the advancement regulations to take it away. I'm sure Ed knows that this is what BOR is for, and once again he is just hopes to spurr a lively discussion. At least I hope that is whats happening. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

My point scoutmom is we don't pretend to be doctors when a scout gets ill, don't pretend to be a psychologist or social service agency. You are there to educate. To present a specific program. One that does not include discussing or counseling sexual issues. That is not your role or the charge given you by the BSA or the parents who registered their child in the program. Ed, Playing devils advocate again, I hope. If a scout ever said he wanted to tell me something that I couldn't share with his parents, all kinds of warning flags would go up. I would tell the scout that until I knew what he was going to say I could not make that promise. What I would promise him is that I would do what I could to help him and that it might include getting help from his parents if that's what would be the best for him. I would expect a teacher at his school to respond the same way. If I thought my son's scoutmaster was keeping secrets from parents I would have him removed. That's not his role in my son's life. Bob White

Unless you suspect that the parents abuse or neglect their children, you tell them. They are still the leagal guardians of that child, you are not. If you suspect abuse or neglect you are required by law in most states to report your suspicions (you are not required to have hard evidence) to the local authorities. You can recommend to the scout to talk with parents, physician or clergy. I warn you if you go beyond that and give the scout contact information to a social service, agency or organization, you could find yourself in some very real legal problems. Besides we are Scout Leaders, not social service experts. Let's focus on our specific responsibility. Besides if a scout gets the flu during an activity we don't prescribe medication and we don't tell them what clinic or doctor they should go to. We comfort them to the degree we are trained and we call the parents. If needed we take them to an emergency room because we know that no doctor will treat them without the parents knowledge, but there are "community agencies" that would think nothing of counseling minors without the parents knowledge. That is not how scouting works. Bob White

Hi Mark, I think if a scout has the ability to teach a skill then they have the ability to test the skill. (Teaching and testing are the tough part, if a scout can manage that then I think they can initial and date a book.) Mark if I found out that the scout had lied, and scout spirit had been signed off by me or anyone else, I would have the Scoutmaster conference and tell him that I had a responsibility to inform the Board of Review of what I had discovered. It is their responsibility to review the scout's personal growth and this incident could effect their evaluation. It is the BORs responsibility to determine if the scout advances or if he must display specific behavior over a specific time period in order to meet the character of a scout. Could the scout appeal? Sure he could but I think his behaviour would work against him and the board would be upheld. Bob White

We know that there are 3 major needs that all humans have. Food, Water, Shelter. Without these no personb feels secure. Without that feeling of security humans will do anything to fill those needs. Once they are met, a fourth need comes in, social. Without that, most people will again feel insecure despite having the comfort of food, shelter, and water. So what does that teach Scout leaders? We need to make sure that scouts have adequate shelter from the elements, dry clothing, comfortable bedding, good meals, plenty of water (not just bug juice) and they need to feel they have friends around them. I guarantee you that you scout who didn't last the weekend was missing one or more of these 4 elements. That's why he took the escape route with mom and dad. He knew what he was missing could be found at home and his natural needs made him grab that escape route. The best solution is the New Scout Patrol for the first year. The boys are around scouts their own age (many they know from Webelos), They have an experienced scout (Troop Guide) and an Assistant Scoutmaster who are focused on their needs and activities, and who while teaching them skills insure that food is good, tents are secure, beds are comfortable, activities are plentiful. Once you get them through the first year they rarely go home. But many who go home the first year rarely come back. Good Night, Bob White

We agree. Hey, nice soap box by the way. You know....I think I can see my house from up here! Bob

I think there is a more important question that solves your dilema. How often are the scouts given situations that require them to know, give them opportunity to practice, or reasons to learn, the skills of the scout handbook? Or did someone teach them a skill, test them, reward them and then move on to the next skill? If the learner hasn't learned, then the teacher hasn't taught. For scouts to learn and retain new skills they need, an application for needing the skill, hands on instruction, opportunities to practice, and a reason for retaining the information. It is the adult leaders responsibility when training junior leaders to teach them how to teach. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

With all due respect to you as a professional dsteele. I believe you are incorrect on your statement regarding that the membership rule on avowed homosexuals is only for the adult leaders. Except where age and gender are concerned the BSA has the same membership requirements for youth and adults. The difference is with the youth the BSA will first suggest thet the scout seek counceling to determine if his decision is being made maturely. If the scout feels it is then the the same membership rules apply. You can find this information on the BSA natioanl web site in their fact sheets. In part it reads, The Boy Scouts of America makes no effort to discover the sexual orientation of any member or leader. Scouting's message is compromised when members or leaders present themselves as role models whose actions are inconsistent with the standards set in the Scout Oath and Law. Rarely, if ever, has a boy expressed opposition to any of the values of the Scout Oath and Law. In the event that were to happen, we would encourage the boy to seek counsel from his parents or religious leaders to make sure that his expression was the product of a mature decision. But I really wasn't looking to get into the specific discussion on homosexuality. I was merely addressing the the open door policy that Zahnada did not want to see "anybody" turned away. From both a moral and a legal responsibility as a leader I can think of many people we want to turn away. Not just for the safety of the scouts but for the negative role models they could be exposed to. Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I guess I would have to ask why such seasoned capable scouters were taking a basic level course. A)They have never been trained , so although they may be experienced, perhaps they realized it was the wrong experience. B) They are well trained but have not been through training recently and want to brush up on the current program. C) They are taking the course to see how to instruct it as trainers. In every case they came needing to see the full course, an edited version would not fulfill there needs regardless of why they are attending. Basic training is not the place to teach advanced program information. That's why the training is a continuum. As they progress through various levels they learn specific levels of information. It is important that leaders participating in training, especially at the basic level, are presented with the same information regardless of who the trainer is and where the training is taken. For a being a national program it is amazing how little continuity exists among similarly trained leaders. Just look at the wide variety of methods expressed on this board from similarly trained leaders all using the same book. The reason I believe is that too many trainers each alter the course "just a little" then the person who is trained alters it a little more, and so on down the line until what happens at the unit level resembles scouting in uniform only. As far as Youth Protection the reason that the discussion can never be done in three minutes is that it's not a discussion. The syllabus instructs the presenter to ask specific question and listen for specific responses. It's a spot check, a test to see if the learners are learning. This is not the time to field questions from the audience. That can take place after the program. This is the same reason why you cannot take the tape home for self study. You have to make sure the learner has learned before you authorize the training record. In addition there is localized information that the learner needs that is not in the tape. That's why now that the course is on line you must use your own council's link to take the course. It allows the local council to input local information, score the test results to insure learning took place and to record the training locally. My 2 cents, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I think we agree Zahnada, that although there are groups with some similarities to scouting there is nothing else like scouting aavailable to youth. Where we differ is at what point that uniqueness begins. We both see some organizations that use some of the tools of scouting; camping, outdoor activities adventure, service, and other "tools" that the BSA uses. Where I think we part is that you see the leadership opportunities as what makes scouting different and I know that youth leadership is just another tool like camping, service, advancement, etc. Where I think the uniqueness of scouting comes from is in our ethics driven mission. The "Why we do" of scouting. It is that mission that makes parents want their kids to be scouts. That same mission is what defines the membership of the BSA. It is the adherence to that mission that drives our membership rules. To change our membership would require us to change the mission (which by the way is exactly what the goal is of certain political groups. They want us to give approval to their lifestyle through membership in scouting). Change the mission and you remove what makes the Boy Scouts of America the most successful youth organization in the country. Without the mission of the BSA we would be just another outdoor club. It's not what we do that brings millions of scouts through the program, It's what we stand for. I believe it was Bill Hillcourt who said "Scouting is for all boys, but not all boys are for scouting." Something to think about, Bob White

One last question if you don't mind Zahnada. You say there is somewhere else this scout can go and get a similar program. Where exactly is that? Bob White

Fotoscout More like a mentor or career coach. Because that is really our role as scout leaders. Actually a lot of what makes a good someone a good priest, minister or rabbi,is also what makes for a good scoutmaster. We are all expected to be good sheperds to our flock. We have each have a specific list of values we are trying to instill in others. We all have a belief in duty to God. We believe that people can change for the better We forgive those who are contrite. We all work out of good books. We have 60 to 90 minutes a week to share the message. We all have summer camps. We feel personal growth comes from personal conversations with the leader. We all have committees to deal with. And like clergy there are a few who joined for the wrong reasons and stay for the wrong reasons. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The main question I have about the situation is whether the boy is comfortable or not in his sexuality" My apologies,I had no idea you had the expertise to make that evaluation. Certainly then you have the background to know the variety of resources available to the youth depending on the level of comfort that you determine he has with his sexuality. Let's hope you recommend the proper treatment or services to him, otherwise you could yourself in the midst of a nasty lawsuit. Not to wory though, I'm sure you pay quite a bit for the professional liability you have as a counselor. Scout volunteers on the other hand do not as a rule have that professional background or training to make such an evaluation. We work with eligible members to deliver a specific program that does not include such indepth pschological evaluation and placement services. I think it's great that you are prepared to help a young person to cope with his sexuality. Plaese do not expect the approx. 200 scout service centers to each have someone with that ability. Also understand that to discuss sexuality with a youth member of the BSA can lead to your removal from the scouting program. Best of luck, Bob White

Actually KS the NLE course is scheduled for 90 minutes and I have found that it actually requires 2 hours. Not sure what you are putting in that extra hour. Bob

Sorry Zahnada, But I am not a trained in social services or rehab work, nor am I every boys parent. I'm a scout volunteer. I will be courteous when I turn him away, I will be helpful when I tell his parents they need to get him help, I will be trustworthy and protect the other scouts in my charge who he endangers, I will be kind and welcome him back when he is well. This scout has adults who are morally and legally responsible for him. It is not as if he can join the troop without them knowing (check the registration form). If it is apparrent to me that this scout is an addict I have a responsibility to tell the parents or guardians of of my concern and then do what is needed to secure the safety and welfare of the other scouts in my role as a unit leader. It is his parents and guardians responsibility to get him the help he needs. If they ask for help I will direct them to consult a physician, and assure them that scouting will be there for him when he is well again. To cast them aside "in a heart beat" is cruel especially if they have no where else to turn. It may seem cruel to you but accidents happen in the blink of an eye. An an individual whether youth or adult who shows up at a scouting activity under the influence of drugs or alcohol is not getting in the front door. We are not talking about a scout who is depressed and contemplating suicide. You are talking about someone who is abusing drugs and quite likely has broken the law. Once when on a campout over 1000 miles from home we were informed two of our scouts had pot with them. I separated them from the rest of the scouts, called their parents and had them come get their scouts. Had I involved social services would you care to guess which one I would have called? It starts with 'pol' and ends with 'ice'. Let me ask you Zahnada, parents bring their 13 year old son to a troop meeting and say they would like to join the troop. "Oh by the way" they say "he's gay". (why they tell you I haven't the slightest idea). What do you do? Register him? Explain he that he does not meet the eligibility to be a scout? Say "He can't join scouts but let me look around and see what kind of activities are available for him." don't you think by know he knows more about what is available for him in the community by now than you do? Don't you think the parents and the boy already know they can't join scouting? I'm curious about your responses, Bob

"If you found out a boy in your troop was a drug addict would you turn him away?" In a heart beat. As an adult leader I have a responsibility to the safety and welfare of the scouts I serve. Any youth or adult who is addicted to drugs or alcohol is a danger to himself and to the children I am responsible for. That person is gone until I am convinced that A)he can establish that his behavior is not a danger to himself and others, and B)he is not taking part in a any illegal activity. I would certainly hope that if are an adult leader that you would take the same steps to insure the welfare of those in the unit including the person in question. By the way if you approved the membership of a known drug abuser and they caused an accident that resulted in personal injury you could face criminal and civil charges along with permanent expulsion from the BSA. So tell me Zahnada, do you still want to let the drug addict into the scout unit? "some of the traits you listed are illegal and in my mind that puts them in a very different category than homosexuality" You set the ground rules Zahnada, and you said you didn't want to see ANYBODY turned away. You made no other qualifications and that is why I asked if this was truly what you would want the BSA to do. You are upset because the BSA doesn't do something they are not trained or designed to do. The BSA isn't saying that you as a leader or scout could not direct them to a social service or alternate organization. They are telling United Way that that is not the function of the BSA and that there are other agencies who are responsible for those services. What is wrong with allowing each agency the freedomn to pursue their specific missions? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Twocubdad Welcome to the 21st century. That's exactly what they changed to over a year ago. Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, all the Leader Specific Training except for the Troop committee Challenge are now primarily on Video tape and PowerPoint. The reason for doing this was to help standardize the information. However for that to work we still need the trainer to stick to the plan. Why have live presenters? I guess the easy answer is "somebody has to push the play button." Just kidding. First, this is still a hands on program. There are exercises and training elements that require an on hand trainer. Also, though many of the training courses have been designed to be able to administer as a self-taught course or as an on-line training, group dynamics make learning more effective and yields higher retention of information. Plus of course a live presenter can be more responsive to the needs of the trainees. In our District almost all the trainers are Roundtable staffers. We want to establish comraderie with the leaders and build trust and continuity from the basic training through RT and beyond as resources they know and can be comfortable talking with. Hope this helps , Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)