Bob White

"All units must have at least one adult with current youth protection training for any event requiring council approval (Local Tour Permit, Camp use applications, Long and short term camping, Unit Fundraising Projects)."

In your opinion at what point or points does the Scoutmaster or other adult give input during a PLC where the following items are discussed or decided. A) the program theme for the next month is canoeing. Hawk has opening ceremonies for the month, panthers agree to do closing ceremonies. The troop is going canoeing on the last weekend. They boys have heard about a river 5 hours away that they have never canoed before so they decide to go there. B) They decide on topics to learn at troop meeting and divide responsibilities among patrols. C) They decide they are tired of summer camp and want to go to the BSA High Adventure Canoe Base instead. The troop Guide points out that the new scouts would not be eligible and need summer camp but he would rather go to the canoe base. D) They decide to offer both options to the scouts. But they still want to use a different summer camp. E) Popcorn sales is coming up and the scouts want to use profits to reduce the trip and summer camp cost. In the past the troop has put 60% into the troop fund and 40% into scout accounts. this time the boys decide it should be 80% to the scout accounts and 20% to the troop treasury. F) The Scouts decide to stay up till 4am on the August campout to watch the Purseus metorite shower that starts at midnight and runs till dawn. G) The guys decide that next year they should go to Hawaii to witness a total solar eclipse. H) They decide that any scout not in a correct uniform next week has to push a penny across the gym floor with his nose. I) Jimmy is a nerd, nobody likes him why does he have to be the troop. He doesn't like to camp, he's not good at games, why does he even come? They vote to have Jimmy leave the troop.

Twocubdad "Why does listening to a boy necessarily mean you are interferring with parental descretion?" It doesn't and I never implied that it did. You can listen without witholding information from the parents. "Bobby, this really isn't a Scoutmaster kind-of thing. Even though you don't want to, I really think you need to discuss this with your folks, or maybe you guidance counselor or minister." How does that interfere with the parents' authority?" It doesn't and I never implied that it did. Agreeing to keep secrets from the parents is interferring. "Omnipotence isn't a job requirement here, just good judgement" I agree, and I see that promising a scout that you will keep what he says secret from his parents is pretending to be omnipotent and is not using good judgement. So I am not the one you disagree with here Twocubdad. Bob White

No one said the leader may 'want' to know. The question is does the leader need to know, or does the leader have the right to know. The rights all belong to the scout and his parents or guardians. The need to know is determined by the scout and his parents or guardian. The leader can "want" as much as they like. That gives them neither the "need" or the "right" to know unless the scout and parents choose to share that information with them. I agree that medical information needs to be available, and parents need to share information that will keep their sons healthy while scouting. But what they share and to whom they share it is the parents choice. As long as professional medical personnel can obtain the information they need if a scout is ill or injured that's all that is important. I've been to camps where older scouts collected medical forms. I think that's improper. I've seen leaders leave the medical form file with the first aid kid or even on a table where anyone could access it. That too is improper. this os personal information and needs to be treated as such. Until needed it should be locked up or in the posession of a specific adult who understands the confidentiality of the contents. Bob White

Sorry fotocsout but thats not what the rule is. BW

But sctmom, what the practice is within your family is your families business. A scout leader has no right to interfere with that. I am in my forties and my teenage son knows he can talk to his mom and me about anything and he does, including sexuality. No one outside our family has a right to teach him otherwise through instruction or through their actions. And certainly, unless you are prepared to involve the legal system, no adult has the right to keep secrets from me about my child. This is about leaders setting bad examples and trying to be more important than the parents and family. "You can tell me anything and I won't tell your parents" says that keeping secrets from your family is healthy, and it is not. It is a method employed by irresponsible adults and a tool of abusers as well. It has no place in the scouting program. You want to keep things confidential from other scouts or leaders fine. But when you start keeping information from parents you have crossed a very important line. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

LOL (laughing out loud) is a TLA (three letter acronym) IMHO (in my humble opinion) is a ETLA (extended three letter acronym) IDCFS (Illinois department of children and family services)is an EETLA (expanded extended three letter acronym) ROFLOL (Rolling on floor laughing out loud) is an MEETLA (modified expanded extented three letter acronym) Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

fotoscout, this is such an important topic that it deserves additional consideration. "took it last year when it was first given to the masses." Youth Protection training has been presented to adult scout leaders for over 15 years. This is nothing new. And yes, if what you wrote is what was taught, then you were not trained correctly. Check out the on-line course. Bob White

Fotoscout with all do respect you need to retake the YP training. You are either mistaken or misinformed on the reporting procedures. Bob White

fotoscout, No apology offered. Go back and take YP training. They list the methods used by abusers and this is one of them. I did not imply that anyone on this board was an abuser, I said they were modeling this behavior for the scouts and telling them it was OK, when we as parents and scouters are telling them that adults who tell them it's OK to keep secrets from parents are dangerous. Let's keep the message consistent. Bob White

Time to go back and revisit YP training fotoscout. What it says is 'If the abuse took place in the scouting arena you must inform the Scout Executive in the council where the abuse occurred AND the local authorities'. 'If the abuse took place outside of the scouting arena you need only inform the local authorities'. It also says 'there are no secret meetings in scouting'. Luckily the training is now available for you on line which will make brushing up more convenient. Bob.

No ed, you don't need to know. There is nothing you can do with that information. A physician treating the child needs to know what he is taking, and he's not going to give the child any meds until he talks to the parent first. Medical information is confidential. I have had parents who have sent medical info in sealed envelopes, to be opened by phycians only. Fine with me. There is nothing in there I need until the scout requires treatment, and then it's the physician who needs it not me. Good leaders are in control but not "In Charge" Bob White

I am surprised Ed. Didn't you set the 25 mile per hour speed limit? After all it's your car and your street, so I assumed it was your rule. I only suggest that because you have told us that it's your troop and your in charge so you set the rules. Of course where I live the sign is on the street where I live and the rule was set by the rules of the community I chose to live in and the rules are set by a governmental council whose members I elected. So in the troop I serve (not my troop), the rules are set by the scouting program I chose to join (the Oath, the Law, the Outdoor Code) and a committee of elected representatives (the PLC). But that's where I live. Thank goodness Bob white

There is a black and white here fotoscout. There are no secret meetings in scouting. To teach a minor that it is OK to keep secrets from his parents is wrong. To tell him you will help him keep secrets from his parents is wrong. It is a tool used by child abusers and should not be modeled by responsible leaders. We are not talking about calling parents up and saying "do you know what Billy said?". We are talking about a leader, Ed in this case, who said if a parent asked him directly about his discussion during a Scoutmaster conference, would tell the parent that "it was confidential" and would not discuss it. That is way out of line. Do what you want in your personal life but don't inflict your bad judgement onto the scouts or the scouting program. You guys need to revisit youth protection training. There are no secret meetings. They didn't say "except for converstaions between scouts and scoutmasters". Do not impose yourself as the parent of the scout. This is purely a power play to make the role of scoutmaster more important in the eyes of the scout and the mind of the scoutmaster. Scouts should be encouraged to discuss problems with their family, Scout leaders should never keep secrets from parents or guardians regarding their children, unless you believe that abuse is involved then you are required to call the authorities. Here is any easy test. At your next COH tell all the parents that if their son ever tells the leaders anything about their lives, and asks that it be kept from the parents, the leaders will not discuss it with the parents even if they ask about it directly. Then wait for the response. Here is the gray area, do I demand the SM be removed now, do I wait till I can get the CC alone, or do I remove my son from the troop and this potentialy dangerous leader. ED Scouts talk with me because I resect them and they respect me, not to use me to keep secrets from thier parents. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed you have no right to interfere in how I bring up my child unless I am endangering his well being. Bob White

LOL, lemon squeezer!! I like that. Bob

I like you Eamonn, You can share my fire anytime. Bob

I have had one for 15 years. I can think of 5 occassions when I've worn it. All WB related. Bob

I'll offer a coupleother thoughts then back off and let others comment. A hold harmless agrement Would probably not hold water (but a lwyer would need to answer for sure) and a parent would be illadvised to sign it paper allowing you to do whatever you want and not sue if you are negligent. What you need I believe is to have a personal liability umbrella independent of the BSA coverage. Youth are not primary and secondary registered. They are dual registered. Each unit membership is distinct. Bob

I am not saying that this method has never worked. but I can say that it has been my experienced that it seldom works. Here are some things to consider. Has the group you have formed done the required governmental filing to be a legitimate non-profit organization. If not..every dollar brought in by the crew is income to your organization and is taxable by the U.S. government. (At last report failure to pay income tax is not looked on kindly.) The chartered Organization is responsible for providing a meeting that is safe and suitable for a year round program and regular meetings. I point this out because if you have a facility then you probably have liability coverage held by the organization for incidents that happen on the property. If you are meeting at someones home then that would be the personal burden of the homeowner. While we are on the suject of insurance...how are you protecting your equipment from loss due to theft or fire? Do you have vehicles, since the Crew is a club that meets within the charter organization, if the charter organization is not a legal entity, how would you register a vehicle or get insurance coverage? Your Charter Organization is responsible for selecting and approving leaders. Should a lawsuit (for whatever reason) be pressed against your organization you would be covered by BSA insurance, BUT only if you have not violated any BSA policies. What if someone did side-step a policy and the BSA withdrew their protection? Unless you have separate liability protection for the Charter organization and its officers and representatives, each of you could be held personal responsible for any wrong doing, fees and penalties leveled aginst you should you loose the suit. Even if you won you would have to pay legal fees from your own pocket. Now of course this may never happen. But what if it did? How badly would you miss your home? What device will insure the continuation and growth of the charter organization to maintain the the membership growth and resources of the Crew? Do some groups do what you suggest? Sure. Do they all have problems? No. what are the chances you would ever have the kinds of problems I oulined? Call it in the air...Heads or Tails! Bob White

Scoutldr, No one has suggested turning away the child. The question is whose child is it? By what authority does the Scoutleader keep secrets from the parent? How does teaching the scout to not talk to his parents benefit the scout or the family unit? What example are we setting as leaders if we teach the scout that it is alright to keep secrets from parents? Who really benefits? >The scout by not having the support of his parents to work through the problem? >The Parents who are unawre that their son is facing the problem and so are unable to help? >The scoutmaster whose ego is stroked knowing that someone elses child has chosen them to confide in an the power they have bestowed on themselves to keep the parents in the dark about their childs problem? PS the term "safe haven" was removed fromthe program over a year ago. Scouting is a 'Controlled risk" environment. (We can thank the lawyers of the world for this one.) Bob White

Ed, if your camp medical staff is giving medications to minors without consulting the parents first it could be life threatening. But I don't know that it's the scout's life that faces the greatest threat. Bob White

Sorry fotoscout, but no one is denying the importance of doing what is right for the boy. The question is the decsision process of what 'right" is. To let a boy think that keeping secrets from his parents is "right", is not in the best interest of the boy. This is one of two things. 1) A scoutleader making an error in judgement. 2) a scoutleader inflating the importance of his role in the boy's life, and in the function of the boy's family. I don't know any reasonable adult who considers one of their roles in life is to be a confidential confessor to any youth that wants to use them in that way. In addition, no matter how you cut it, as a volunteer in the BSA you have a responsibility to the organization and its rules. One of the basics of Youth Protection is 'there are no secrets'. A scout should be able to respect their scout leaders. The should want to follow their examples. This is not an example that we should teach to children. Eagle Dad I agree with what you wrote except one thing. I am responding to Ed's scenario not just as a volunteer trainer, but as an experienced unit leader and a parent. As a trainer I know that what Ed suggests is incorrect. As a scout leader I know it is not necessary to do in order to serve the scout's best interest. As a parent I am appalled that someone I expect to help teach my son 'character' would include witholding information from parents as a character trait. What right does the SM have to contradict what I teach my son about always be able to talk openly with his parents. Zahnada You say "I cannot promise you that." "I can promise that I will do whatever I can to help you, and if that includes talking to your parents, then I will help you to do that as well. But I cannot promise to keep secrets from your parents. If there is something troubling you, I'm sure they woulfd want to help. Now what seems to be the problem?" Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed? I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that you give medications such as cough medicine and aspirins to scouts that they have not brought themselves? Bob

Ed, I am so glad you prefaced this with playing devils advocate. Because to do as you suggest in this hypothetical scenario is way out of line and irresponsible as a scout leader. You say hes not sure of his belief in God, but he shows his reverence by attending church every Sunday. His Reverence to who Ed? Who is he revering at that church if he is not sure about God? We cant just talk to the scouts Ed, you have to listen as well. If I was the parent and you told me that my son told you something that you refused to share with me you would be in deep trouble. Who do you think our obligation is to as leaders? I registered my son in scouting. I the parent, gave you the opportunity to help teach my son. That does not give you the right to withhold information from me. If you gave your word to a minor that you would keep secrets from his parents, then you made a very, very, bad decision. We are supposed to be a role model and what you are telling them is that they can be more open with you than with a parent. Do you really think that is the example scouting is asking you to set? Do you really think you care more for them or have more rights than the parent does? You are impressed because the scout can tell you things and not worry about you talking his ear off. In other words he can talk to you knowing you wont do anything about it. Should that be a comforting thought to either of you? You are not violating any confidence because as a scout leader you are not asked, expected or trained to keep things confident from the parents. You by the way authorized his membership in the BSA. If his beliefs are in conflict with the rules of membership you have more responsibilities as a scout leader than just keep him from a BOR. Aside from the misuse of A scout is Trustworthy what element of scouting supports keeping secrets from parents? Bob White