Bob White

Thanks Jeff, i have since found the section with the staff requirements. No one has disputed that the health information needs to be there. Bob White

Thanks Jeff, if you could give me the section that's in because I can't find that in my manual. My point was there is supposed to be an adult in that area and they should be responsible for the health histories. I never said you were not qualified to be there to give aid. I really think you have taken offense where none was given. Bob White

Jeff, no one is questioning your ability to treat the injuries you have been trained for. Again I'll say it, I think it's great that you have taken the training that you have and that you use that training to help others at camp. That does not train you to handle the legal or moral responsibilities for handling confidential medical information nor should you have to. This is not about your abilities, this is about the families rights of privacy and the difference between what a leader needs to do the job and what they may want. Please tell me if I am looking in the right resource, I have the BSA Guide to Health and Safety publication #34415B. So far I can find no portion mentioning the qualifications of any health lodge staff members. Please direct me to the right resource, or the section in this one that carries the information you sited. In the meantime I checked with the local professional involved in summer camp. He said that national requires that you be at least 18 to be the Health Lodge director and recommends 21. The training requirement varies between councils but national recommends they be a licensed nurse, physician, or professional medical person such as an EMT or paramedic. They must be able to administer CPR and preferably be able to teach it. Thanks, Hope this Helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

jbroganjr, I will be happy to defend the scouting program on this board but I see no need to continue to defend my posts. The question is on the New Scout Patrol and First Class Emphasis. You say it is an experiment and the jury was still out. How long before the jury decides? The reason I ask is both these program are now over 15-years old, and they were field tested across the country proir to that. Just how many years should it take before a leader incorporates an element of the BSA into the program for the scouts? One more thing I guess, Venturing is a modified version of Exploring, it is aimed at the identical demographics that Exploring was. And the Exploring program was co-ed as far back as the late 60s early 70s. So it's not like Venturing reinvented the wheel of scouting. The change came not from units violating scouting membership policies, but from controlled tests program designed and opersted under the BSA. So yes, the program evolves but how about letting the the BSA do the evolving? I have no problem with people who disagree with me, and I have never pretended to be infallible or denied wir when I was wrong. I do have a problem however with leaders who misuse or misrepesent the program. Not as judge and jury, I have never sentenced anyone. But as a volunteer who knows when a bad leader chases a boy from scouting it has a ripple effect that reaches us all directly or indirectly. Bob White

That is great to hear. The reason I ask, twocubdad, is that you sound frustrated and I have heard that frustration before. I have always maintained that if you are not adding to the financial strength of scouting then you don't get to complain, because with money comes services. Not that a unit that doesn't support the Council should not get the same services as a unit that does, they just don't get to complain. You on ther other hand get to speak up, and I recommend you speak-up to two groups. You need to talk the the unit leaders you know that do not support FOS or sell popcorn and tell them you don't get the services you want because they don't add to the financial strength of the council. It's not that council isn't doing the work you want, it's that they don't have the finances to do the work you want done. Why? Because other units are not pulling their load but they get the same benefits as the unit you serve. Next, put on a clean uniform and a smile and go have a sit down with your Scouting Executive. By in large these are terrific folks and good business people. That's why they are the SE. Remind him/her the good work the unit does in supporting the council. Let them know what strengths in the District and Council your unit benifits from that you realize comes from the Council coffers. Then tell them specific services you need the council to assist with, in order for the unit to grow and thrive. The SE realizes that if the unit is frustrated or looses enthusiasm or membership it will affect the ability of the unit to continue in its financial support at the levels it haas been. As I say these are business people. They understand return on investment. Often times the things you need are very doable they just were not realized by the Council committee (more business people). Once the "friendly" lines of communication are opened cooperation quickly follows. I think you will find the SE very open and appreciative of this kind of approach. The professional staff really is here to help units succeed, and units that understand and appreciate that the finacial health of a council is everyone's responsiblity is a breath of fresh air. And units that actively support that goal are respected and listened to. Dsteele!! Am I right on this? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No Problem Twocubdad, but I did type the name incorrectly. It is the Cub Scout Leader Book. Bob White

Jeff, OOPS, My Bad, I meant heat exaustion which is often present in warm weather with dehyration. Since you were working there I presumed it was summer time. Bob White

interesting, keep going.

I have been a volunteer in 4 councils and the way scouting is financed and events budgeted is nearly idendical. BW Twocubdad if I could inquire, how many families in the unit you serve and what is the unit's average Friends of Scouting pledge each year?

jeff, noone said someone under 18 could not do first aid, we teach boys well under that age how to do that all the time. My own brother was an EMT at 18 and a paramedic at 21. He would be the first to admit there is a big difference between first aid and medical care. You are not yet trained to provide true medical care. That doesn't mean you aren't doing your best and shouldn't continue to learn. But you are not yet prepared to carry the responsibility of a medical professional. Now Jeff I want you to think of jrbroganjr's examples and ask yourself some questions. "I have had a handicapped scout at camp with nothing listed on his form, even though his handicap was physical as well as mental. He lasted one day. Left camp, left scouts" Was this first day of camp the first time this scout's troop leaders ever met him? Did they have no idea of what his abilities and needs were? How is that possible? What would having his health history and physical and medications known by anyone in the unit have changed his condition? "I have had a boy, whose parents told us he had allergy meds sent to the health lodge. No one was told that he had to have them every day. Turns out it was not allergy but anti depressive." Didn't anyone call the parents to ask if the wrong meds were sent, or for an explanation of what they had in their hands? If the bottle told them what the medication was didn't have the dosage on it? if the scout refused to take the prescribed medication why didn't the health professional call the parents and have the parents or guardians come get the scout. Was a medical professional even informed by the health lodge staff? "The kid left scouts, bitterly." Jeff, this boy suffered from depression, he left scouts bitterly? What evidence is there that this couldn't be attributed solely to his illness. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the leader respecting medical confidentiality. These two examples do draw attention to a problem...but the problem is not whether or not leaders have access to confidential information. "Parents should always know what is happening healthwise with their kids." Yes they should, and they should share restrictions and health needs with leaders. But that doesn't mean they must share specifics of ilnesses or medications. "Our troop maintains "the BOOK" with copies of health forms (mandated for camp), as well as every emergency number for contact that goes with us on all outings." That's fine, but why can't that information be in a sealed envelope to be opened by medical professionals when the need for treatment arrives? You can have the information without having the information available for anyone who opens the book to see. So you see we are not saying that parents shouldn't communicate or that health histories should be available. But all a parent has to tell is what they choose needs to be told, and you canb have the medical information available yet confidential. Medicating scouts is the responsibility of the scout. the BSA recommends in the Guide to Safe Scouting that if a scout cannot medicate themselves then the parent should be there to do it. The BSA neither requires or recommends that adult volunteers be responsible for medications. Bob White

"If you are dropping down to a level of "baiting", Where did I bait? I did not ask if the poster was playing deveils advocate, another poster asked. I did not answer for him or change his answer, he did. "In reading some of your other posts, there was a bit of vindictivenes (my opinion) on another poster, to the extreme of contacting scouter to find out that persons ISP address." I did not! That is what the poster said I did, but that is not what happened. He used foul (pornographic) language regarding female scouters, and had reason to believe he was posting under two names in violation of the rules of the board. Did I ask the board if they wanted to look into the language and dual posting? Yes as was one of the posters who inquired. The board moderators discovered the IP addresses were identical. "He may or may not be right, there is only the postings, we do not have face and observation in action." I agree we only have his words as to what he does and whether or not he does what he says. That is all any of us have. You have no problem judging me by what I write even though your evidence so far has been innaccurate. I admit to being protective of this program, I believe it's methods work even in the minutia. "am not judging evmoris program" And there in lies the rub. "Evmori's program" It is not Evmori's program. It is the "BSA's program" and we each signed our name and promised to follow it. I have never said scout my way, I have said "you are scout leaders, lead the scouting program". Lead a scout troop not "my" troop. Follow the scouting rules not "my" rules, lead "the" scouts not "my" scouts. "nor am I saying that yours in the standard to behold." nor have i asked you to, simply because I have not offered "my program" I have what the BSA program is and how I have seen it used successfully by me and by others. I joined this board after watching from afar for several months and just could not stomach the misinformation and program bashing that was the mainstay here. Do I get passionate? Yes. Do I let my anger out in print to some posters? Yes. But I try really really hard not to. I have been supportive and tried to be helpful and accurate to most everyone here. But there a couple "trained" leaders here who are spouting some real tripe about what scouting methods and policies are. "Your posts suggests that anyone not following the BSA program as interpreted by Bob White should be thrown out of the program. NEVER! I have pointed out when appropriate that sp[ecific actions according to the BSA policies can result in expulsion, but I have never threatened to or took action to have anyone removed. You are not in my son's troop or the council I serve. "I believe that the program is inherently designed to be adaptable to diverse culture that it serves." I believe the program works in diverse cultures if the leader adapts to it. It should not be the goal of scouting members to change the program, it is the goal of the scouting programs to change its members. Bob White

Since you asked Jeff, I would prefer that the health and safety staff work with the adult leadership to insure the youth are drinking water and staying hydrated so that no one gets dehydrated. Isn't prevention the first course of medical treatment? Next, I would like your treatment to match your diagnosis. If the scout had moderate to severe dehydration and heatstroke as you describe, then sports drink was the wrong treatment. Water or sports drink is recommended for mild cases only, Moderate cases usually require an IV which the EMT is not qualified to give. Severe cases (he was looking pretty bad) requires a physicians care). It is unlikely at 1/2 dillution that the tiny amount of red dye would worsen his condition or create a more severe medical condition than he was already in. The lesson learned here is that colored sport drinks are not the best choice of product to stock in case of such an emergency, and if you suspect heatstroke you should have been in conference with a physician. By the way I consulted a physician for this reponse. Jeff, no matter how much first aid training you have you need to understand the privacy issues involved in healthcare. Keep in mind also that as great as I think it is that you have an interest and aptitute for medical aide the greatest danger you will face is treating beyond your competency. Best of luck, Bob white

I know what you are talking about twodad I just don't know why you phrase it the way you did. Having chaired many a council and district event over the years I never had the council keep money that I as a volunteer didn't budget for them to have. We routinely create event budgets that cover the anticipated cost of the event, to that we add a 10% contigency fee (in case something unexpected comes up) and a %15 administrative fee (counils money). This is to cover the admistration that council provides to support the activity. We put postage and mailer costs iin the budget, but theose stamps don't stick themselves to the letters or jump in the envelope. Someone at the office tracks registration, answers phone calls, orders patches, orders ribbons. The office they do that in needs lights and heat for them while they work. That all comes at a price. I have a responsibility to budget for that. Along with that the council general fund keeps any profit that may happen. Keep in mind we don't budget for profit. In balance to that, if the event loses money, the council's general fund makes up the difference (thank goodness), keep in mind we don't budget to lose money. The most money I have ever had an event profit was $100, that was one-cent for every three participants. But I once saw a volunteer lose $5000 mismanaging a day camp. So the budget is the volunteer's responsibility. The goal is not to lose money, but you need to figure in the service center's administrative cost. Unless you want the council to hold you responsible for any size loss you had better be willing to turn over any sized profit. If there was too much deficit or too much profit, it was because of a volunteers error not the professional staff. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Actually the Cub Scout Leader book tells us not do achievements at den meetings, so your old den leader did get something right." Sorry but that is incorrect. Better check page 18-2 of the Cubmaster Leader book or attend the Wolf/Bear Leader Specific training. You have some good tips here Newbs. I would recommend... >Get online and take Cub Fast Start for your position (takes about 10-minutes) and Youth Protection (about 40-minutes) > Get the Program Helps agazine and the How-to Book They'll give you a tremendous ammout of help to get your meetings going. > Attend New Leader Essentials (90-minutes to 2-hours) and Wolf/Bear Leader Specific training (just under three hours) ASAP > Attend Roundtable > Meet weekly for 60-minutes do hands on stuff > Have Fun Bob White

I'll ask that we stay on topic and discuss "at what point during the meeting the SM or other adult should intervene." Although I agree with EagleDad's paraphrase (it's actually "Teach them, Trust them, Let them lead")I need to point out that the PLC is a troop activity and as such the Youth Protection policies require two adults to be present. The Scoutmaster training has for decades taught that the SM is present at all PLCs and has a specific role to play, which we can discuss later. The second adult can be anyone 18 years of age or older and does not have to be a registered leader.

Ed, Please don't ask me to respond to any more of your strange hypothetical situations. (What if the scout loses his inhaler but doesn't know if he has a medical condition? What did he think the inhaler was for?) Lets stick to the facts. 1) The fact is no SM or any other leader has a legal right or need to any medical information. They get whatever the scout or parents choose to share, and they only have to share that with professional medical personnel if they so choose. Don't confuse 'want to know' with 'need to know' 2) The Guide to safe scouting says that the scout and his [parents are responsible for the storage and administration of medication. In fact the BSA prefers and recommends that the adult leaders have nothing to do with medications. 3) No matter what equipment or knowledge you have in first aid or emergency care, unless you have a medical certificate authorizing you to supply or administer medications you cannot give so much as half an aspirin to a minor until you talk with the parent or guardian. If you were physician, unless that scout was in grave peril, you would not provide any medication until you talked with the parent or guardian. I've sat in an emergency room with a scout with an obvious broken collarbone, with his health history and treatment authorization in hand, and other than taking x-rays the doctors would do nothing until he spoke with the a parent. We waited nearly two hours. So that history and waiver is not going to do help you unless your life or limb is in danger. In which case the doctor can open the envelope and read the info. 4) More important than what the scout is taking or what condition they have is what their limitations or restrictions are. You can provide a safe and healthy program without knowing what causes those restrictions as long as you abide by them. Kids go to school everyday without their teachers or principals knowing what medications they take or why. The nurse (the medical professional) has that information and she cannot share it without permission from...the parents or guardians. How many of your kids this summer will be out doing all sorts of activities (outside of scouting) without health histories, or physical with them? How many of you carry health histories and physicals with you? What happens when your kids are away from you and get hurt? Hopefully their friends don't give them medication. If they end up in the doctors office what treatment will they recieve? None, until the doctor reaches you. 5) Most of us have taken a number of first aid training courses, plus there is all the information in the handbook. I have had BSA and ARC traing and I have yet had one that said before you give first aid ask for their medical history and physical form. 6) Should you have a health history on every scout? Yes. Do you or anyone else "need" to know what a scout has or is taking? No, unless the parent chooses to tell you. Will they tell you? yes, in many cases, but only what you need to know to keep their son safe and healthy. They do not have to tell you anything they do not wish to share and you do not have a "right" to that information. example:I can tell you "my son has a difficulty focusing on multiple tasks. You will need to see that he recieves instructions one step at a time in order for him to understand. He is taking medication to assist him. He knows what to take and when." You can ask what he takes, but I don't have to tell you. You can ask what his clinical problem is, but I don't have to tell you. That is private information. I told you his restriction. That is enough information for you to work successfully with my son. If he needs to see a phycisian, you can take my envelope with his health history in with him amd give it to the physician. You are not a physician, as the parent I promise not to treat you like one, as a scout volunteer try not to act like one. Bob White Firstaider, No EMT is going to give meds whether OTC or not to a minor without talking with the parents first.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm no accountant, but my understanding is that unless you are a certified non-profit organization then you must be a "for profit" organization and so your income is taxable. Technically that money is not the troop's it belongs to the Charter Organization. So the officers of the CO would be responsible for the taxes. Again you need to talk to an accountact or tax lawyer, but this is my understanding of the situation. Bob White

I was at a Chamber of Commerce event last night and managed to corner a couple UW board members. I said I noticed that their 2003-2004 budget included a reduction in UW administartive monies of nearly $14000. We talked about what a herd ship that will be for there Office of 6 professionals over the next year. They took this cut even though the donations were up from last year but did not reach their set goal. Then we talked about the organizations that are getting the same amount as last year even though they had a year of growth. I then mention my involvement with scouting and the fact that we recieved the largest cut of $15000, and how difficult that is when we are trying to maintain a staff of 14 and services to 11,000 families. If its tough on 6 imagine our problem. We are appealing the budget cut and I asked them to reconsider their decision for the BSA program, at this point 4 other scouters within earshot came over and added their support. It's fun to watch when a Doctor, a Bank VP, the head of the larget genneral contractiing firm in the region and the executive director of the chamber all press thier support to United Way for scout funds. I'll let you know if it worked or not. Bob White

Ed, Try to look at this from another vantage pointr. I understand and agree you want to know. But my son has asthma, he carries an inhaler with him. He knows how and when to use it, he knows his limitations. It's a mild case and not life threatening. He has a right to choose who to share this information with and when. He has a right to privacy and an expectation of confidentiality with his medical form. You don't "need" to know about it until he has a "need" to tell you. The Guide to Safe Scouting says that medication is the responsibility of the parents and the scout. So as long as you have access to his health history should a problem arise, there is seldom need for you to know it's content unless you are the treating physician. If I told you what medication my son took for a current condition, unless your were a trained physician or pharmacist, you wouldn't have the slightest idea whether or not you could even give him an aspirin. You wouldn't know side-effects, what to do in case of over medication, or if he were undermedicated. So you knowing his personal medical info would not service you or the scout in any way, unless you were a medical professional treating him. You "need" to know his physical restrictions. "Billie can't eat seafood, Billie needs to eat a candy bar after strenuous physical activity. Billy will need to see a doctor in case of any bleeding wound." Why Blly needs these things is no ones business unless the parent or scout "chooses" to share it, or if you are the physician treating billy. I grant you that it certainly is helpfull to have some of this information up front, but the parents need to make that choice. It is not a need or right on our part, it is simply a want. Right?

SouthPoleScout, maybe I can clear-up some misconceptions or at least provide some definitions. The "Dress" Uniform is a scout tie. It is worn with a dark blazer and gray slacks of the wearers choice. A pocket card with the Nation Scoy emblem and wreath is slipped into the breast pocket so that the emblem hangs on the outside. It exists because the professionals often have to deal with other professionals in the private sector. The need to dress as professionals to be effective. The "Regular" Uniform you describe is called a "Field" Uniform in scouting. It is used when scouts are representing the program in public or for special occassions such as ceremonies and Courts of Honor. My son is currently wearing an old shirt of mine from 1985. It is the same style and construction as the new one I have. (He got the old one because it must have shrunk a little over the years. my new one fits much better.) "Lets go back to the days when the uniform was useable!" When exactly was that? I have been in uniform since 1962 and I have a pretty good collection of older uniforms and I don't know of any that were useable in all situations and some were un-usable as a whole. Bob White

Ouch sst3rd Oh well I probably earned that after getting dragged into some some rather un-fun conversations. No, I just wanted to get into a topic that actually had a more positive slant. is there a purpose to the post? sure, but doesn't every first post have a purpose to it? Do I have a positive result in mind? absolutely? Would it be so awful if something good came from this? Bob White

Twocubdad, Check my posts, I never said I would call the parents on everything. I said It would be irresponsible to promise a scout that I would not tell his parents anyhting, and that I would never keep anything secret form a parent who asked (as one poster said he would do). I never made the aurgument that you had to report everything to the parents, I only said it was wrong to purposely withold anything from the parents. As a parent and as experieced volunteer with youth in and out of scouting, I think Iam a good judge of what could be important enough that I need to contact the parent, and if a parent ever asked me what their son and I talked about in any conversation including the SMC I would tell them without hesitation. It's their son they have a right to know and I have an obligation to them as the scout's parent. Bob White

Jeff, I'm saying that this information for many people is personal and confidential and should be handled by professionals and legal adults. I have had many scouts who were were allergic to bee stings and carried their epi-sticks with them and I knew how to use them as well. But that was by the choice of the scout and parents. I'm not saying that medical information shouldn't be available, or that it can't be shared. My point is it is not the scoutleaders "need" or "right". Sharing that information is the choice of the individual not the right of the leader. I am sure you are very qualified to treat the injuries that you have been trained to handle. That does not give you the right to know my medical condition, until it becomes your responsibility to treat me. This is a not about the ability or qualifications of the medical staff. This is about the right to confidentiality of the individual. Help me with this one Jeff. You and I have both had a lot of First Aid training both in or out of scouting. When it comes to First Aid, I have never been told to first look at the health history, or had to consider what medications the person was on. Remember we are talking First Aid only. Allergy to latex is another matter, I guess I would ask the patient if they knew if they were allergic. If the patient was unconscious I would not recommend waiting for the Health History before treating. Right? So you could still do your part until professional medical aid arrived. Isn't that what counts? Bob White

And I think that is a very reasonable answer.

Jbroganjr, Color me crazy or any other term you want. But I have this silly notion that scout leaders should try to follow the scouting program. Go figure. I have great respect for sincere leaders and greater patience with folks looking to learn and do their best. But I don't pull punches with leaders who pretend to be in it for the boys but then deny the boys the real joys of the program. Or those who use scouting as a political platform, or to boost their own ego because it's one area in life they get to be "in charge". The vast majority of posters here are trying to do the right thing for their scouts and the program. But there are a few who despite their training or experience continue to present a very disturbing version of what should be a very fine program. I admit that I have a shorter fuse for some than I wish I had, but it truly angers me when I see the damage done to local units and community scouting when these folks get a strangle hold on a unit. Then they compound it by presenting their version on line as if it were the actual scouting program. I share what's in the program resources and I'm accused of having my head buried in the book. At least it's the scouting book and not one I wrote as I went along. And at least it's in a book. I (a scout is courteous so I will not go further with that). I don't know any of the other leaders from Adam except for what they write. I thought one scouter was way off base until he wrote that he just played devil's advocate. But then he made it clear that that was a deception. He actually does the things he says on this board. If it werent for the uniform I wouldn't recognize it as a scouting program. I'm very friendly in real life but not with scouting pretenders. I take the responsibility of providing a wholesome learning environment seriously but the scouts and scouters I serve have fun. There is lots of room for customizing and creativity among units and among leadership styles. But let's all play by the same rules for the sake of the kids. You don't mess with policies..period. You dont'choose to not follow the prescribed methods, and you leave the uniform and the advancement program alone. That's all I have defended here. If that bothers you that's not my problem. I tried to be subtle with the off-base ones in the beginning. I tried to coach and counsel. But they are set in their ways and I'm set in the scouting ways, and they are not the same. I didn't manufacturer the program I follow. I just gave my word to follow it. Leaders are welcome to "run their troop" any way the parents of that unit will allow. But others need to know how different the real program is, and that there are more units that operate the scouting way than not. respectfully submitted, Bob White