Bob White

I do try try to understand each poster including you and beavah. It is just that sometimes I find documentally differencesbetween what some post and what the BSa program IS. I did not create the disparity, I simply show what is in the BSA resources. That fact that some posters are frequently in contrast with those policies and procedures is is a reflection of their choices not of the scouting program or of my knowledge or lack of knowledge of the program, which posters, including you enjoy attacking in very coarse manner. As far as you not holding yourself up as an expert. my posts almost always rely on a BSa resources as the authority. i have repeateltly asked you to share any BSa resource that supports your posts and the cosnstat source of authority you offer is only that you used to be a professional for almost 5 years. Which in comparison to the time spent by many volunteers on this forum is simply not am impressive amount of experience. I would be far more impressed if you could show BSA methods, policies, or proceures that supported your statememnts. Thanks for the exchange of opinion. BW

The commomality is supposed to be that we all learn and lead the same programs (not always the same activities) based on the same Methods, policies and proceures. The commonality is that alll use the same training syllabi, and the same resources from the same BSA. But of course that requires that we all follow that training and those resources, but some do not. And they account for nearly every problem shared on this and otther forums. You have never seen a post on this forum that included "i followed the program and it did not work!" That's because the program works really well when you follow it. Every problem in every case on this forum came from some inividual or group that did not follow a BSA program element, method or policy. So the solution is not to stray further from the BSA program, but to move closer to it. to that end I and others frequently contrast what you and beavah and others have said to what the BSa program actually says either through program Method, policy or procedure. I think if you honestly compared my post to your for instance you would find thaat I use the BSa resources as the authority in Scouting, where you and beavah for that matter often use yourselves or your experience as tha authority. That would not be so bad if your 'experience followed the stated methods and policies of Scouting, but their rarely do. Anyone can easily find posts where you claim to be an expert based on what you used to do in scouting. Then you criticize me for being a self-proclaimed expert. I have posted here for many years and I challange you to find a single post where I proclaim any such thing. The only source I have said is expert at the the BSA are the training and resources of the BSA, or others whom I have seen use the program correctly with consistantly positive results. Your continues personal attacks are dreadfully weak and transparent. You say what you do, I post what the BSA says is right. That there exists a wide disparity between the two is not my fault nor the fault of the BSA's. If you want the gap to narrow then you and he others in the same situation will need to move closer to the program, because I doubt you will see the program try to incororate the many variances in its methods and policies that some of you have created. Remember to that when I post what the BSA says in contrast to you or beavah, or others, rarely do I expect to change your entrenched practices. I just want others to see how far off you are so that they can see the difference and choose their path accordingly. If they have been chosen well then I would expect them to follow the BSA program. Ever notice how to a large extend we see the same folks posting problems over and over again? Why do you suppose that is? By the way, I don't post bible passages that often. I do quote Shakespeare from time to time.

I never claimed to be anything other than a stranger on the internet. That's why I have never said "listen to me". All I have urged is to follow the program. As far as the size of the council or the color of my tabs...since when do you have to be from a big council in order to follow the BSA Programs? Do you think different councils have different training syllabi or different BSA resources, or perhaps different policies? Do you think that learning or doing is limited to gold tabs? Certainly you don't think that professionals have program answers that didn't come the same training and resources that volunteers have access to? Good experience is great to share, but bad scouting does not equal good experience. "Through wisdom is a house built; and by understanding it is established; and by knowledge shall every room be filled with precious and pleasant riches." ~Proverbs 24:3 BW

Which BSA insurance are you refering to Eagle92?

I just remind people what the BSA program includes, I don't tell them what to do. I count on their personal integrity to do what they promised to do when they joined, and that's follow the program, not strangers on an internet forum, eh.

Beavahs philosophy of 'play the game but don't let the rules get in the way' is not a well thought out way to deliver the program.

The Eagle Project became a requirement in 1965. The mentors pin is not a badge of office or semi-office it is a presentation gift from the Eagle Scout to someone in his life who has been an inspiration. It was not designed for the Life to Eagle counselor. Eamonn, The role of the Eagle counselor, at least as explained in our councils WEagle packet, is to have someone i the unit who is thoroghly knowledgeable in the process to act as a resource for the scout in completeing his paperwork and preparing for the board and court.

John, I do not disagree that education is a continuing process and that athose who lead should not cease to learn. And that is a great topic for ANOTHER thread. What I want to find out in THIS thread, is when did people START the training process as a unit leader, and to have a better idea of the era of the information that they began with. I want to know who has experienced which version of training so that we can talk about some of the changes with the people who actually attended those courses and did not form an opinion simply from what they heard of those courses or imagined them to be based on one or two verses from a Scoutmasters handbook of that time. There is no point for instance for someone to ask you of the differnece between Cornerstone Training and The Scoutmaster Fundamentals, if you were not a participant in them. Kudu maintains that the Patrol Method was not taught ofter 1972. I know for a fact after having taken Cornerstone in 76, SLT in 77, and then SMBLT, and then Scoutmaster Fundamentals after that,....and Scoutmaster Leader Specific training after that, that Kudu is absolutely wrong. What would be interesting to find out is when did KUDU take his first Scoutmaster training course. So that led me to wonder about when did others begin to take their basic traing so we could talk about the difference with those who actually took the course. So John...If you would be so kind....would you please share with us what year you first take basic training as a unit leader and in what programs. Thanks BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Is it your suggestion that if you had allowed the SPL to do his job that the cub scouts would not have had fun? I do not see how following the program would have altered the results but simply done a better job of including the junior leader as the program methods intended. It is not the handbook answer, It is the Boy Scout program, the Handbooks are simply receptacles where the information is stored for those who choose to follow the program. Being in a Handbook is not a bad think.

"Selection should be by SM DL and parents all working together for the DC and the Cubs. Not if your intent is to follow the BSA program, and to make use of the Leadership Development Method. The Senior Patrol Leader selects the Den Chiefs aaccording to the Scoutmaster training, the Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook.Do you know of anything in the Boy Scout training or handbooks that says otherwise? Den Chief is a Troop position, not a Pack position it is not for a Den Leader to choose Den Chiefs. Consider letting the SPL do his own job. "Never do a job for a boy that a boy can do for himself."(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't disagree John and perhaps we could do a different thread on how often people have updated their training. Right now I am trying to understand what basic Training programs people learned the program under originally so that we might discuss the differences based on background. Would you please share the years when you first took leader training and in what program it was? I will ask that folks stick just to the basic training for the three traditional programs. If we start getting in to all the training courses people have attended we could have some very, very, long posts that won't really relate well to each other. For instance to say you went to College of Commissioners Science doesn't tell us what informatioon you were exposed to since CCS is not a standardized curriculum. But it would interesting to know when folks first attended basic adult leader training in Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts and Explorers/Venturing/Sea Scouting. Thanks BW

My advice...Start Over! The unit needs to be reorganized. It is missing key leaders, a charter, an charter organization relationship, and many of its existing leaders are untrained. Ask the DE and other key members of the District committee to step in and reorganize the unit correctly. Offer to fill one position and to help encourage others to join and get trained. Otherwise the unit has no hope of continuing. Let's just look at the "good points" you brought up. "They are organized and have enthusiastic people who are willing to be leaders." They aren't organized at all, they haven't got a functioning committee, they are missing several leaders, and they aren't trained. Heck they aren't even chartered. There is little if anything organizaed about them. The committee is being controlled by an untrained den leader out of sheer force of personality and little vey knowledge of scouting. "They use the Program Helps for meetings which does do a great deal of the planning for you." Unfortunately "they" do not have enough leaders to serve the scouts that they have. They do go camping as a Pack (but do not have a BALOO trained person.) and have a good schedule with active participation with most Cubs and parents." If they had good participation from parents they would have a committee and all the leaders they needed, but they don;t. They are camping but who knows what they are doing? One thing we know is that they are camping in violation of the BSA safety policies and are likely lying on their tour permit since they do not have a BALOO trained adult. And those are their only strengths?! Without someone really strong in unit organizing this is a pack that will soon be dead. I urge you to seek help from the district. A lot of help.

What Kudu offers simply is not factual. Is there anyone else on this forum who took Cornerstone training? If so what year did you take it?

Your profile says you are currently an ASM and District Committee Member. Your Committee Chair has taken the wrong training (he needs YP, NLE, and Troop Committee Challenge as does the rest of the commmittee)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Anywhere from 32 to 39 active Scouts

We had this converstaion on the forum 3 years ago. The final compromise was that the knot is symbolic and not actual. It is an artists rendering of a knot. In fact if you look at different images of the knot on various badges and in various images you will see that is it does not always look the same. Just as the stars on the emblem do not look like actual stars. What is constant is the sybolism of reminding the wearer to do a good turn daily. To ask these kinds of questions at a board of review is ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time. To withold advancement based on the answers to these kinds of questions is repugnant, and hopefully someone on the board has enough personal character to defend the Scout and stop that kind of behavior.

The troop I served worked with a few different packs. We always made it know that we would be happy to try and supple Den Chiefs to the dens that wanted them. But we did not try to force dens to take Den Chiefs nor did we force scouts to become Den Chiefs. The Senior Patrol Leader would select scouts to approach and suggest that they consider being Den Chiefs and explained their vale to both the packs and the troops. The troop only allowed Fiorst Class Rank Scouts or higher to be Den Chiefs as it was felt that an understanding and working knowledge of the basic scout skills was necessary in orer to do the job correctly. We then gave them training at the troop level. When a Den showed interest in having a Den Chief we went to our selected scouts and offered them the opportunity. Whether they accepted, or which opportunities were accepted, depended largely on den meeting days and times and location. We usually had three or four scouts serving as Den Chief at any given time.

That is probably going depend on how well the list is followed-up on. The more positive info you get into the scout's and parents' hands, and the sooner you do it, the better the success you will have. How many leaders you will need will depend on the the age break down of the scouts that sign up. A good rule of thumb is is to get 1/3 of the families involved in the pack as leaders or on a committee. If you are going to have 24 Tigers each will have to come with an adult partner. I would make 4 Dens and work to recruit two active adults from each den.

Of the three programs Cub Scout, Boys Scout, and Exploring/Venturing/Sea Scouting What years did you first take your adult leader training? Boy Scouts 1976 Cub Scouts 1990 Venturing/Sea Scouting 2004

What Kudu offers simply is not factual. Is there anyone else on this forum who took Cornerstone training? is so what year did you take it?

Have you looked at the ideas and examples in the Cub Scout "How To Book"?

As an assistant Scoutmaster you have no authority to make changes except through the example of your own behavior. Does the scoutmaster attend Roundtable. If so you can ask the Roundtable commissioner to do some training on the proper way to do boards of review. Has the committee been trained? It would not seem likely considering their bor procedures. One thing you could do is offer to arrange for them to take the Troop Committee Challenge training together. Let the trainer know of the problem with the boards so that it can be emphasized during that portion of the training. You say the troop does not use the patrol method very well. You could look for opportunities to counsel the Scoutmaster or Spl on ways to do things as patrols rather than as a troop. Be consistent in your use and support of the proper BSA Methods and procedures and over time some of it is likely to be absorbed. Hopefully as an assistant Scoutmaster you have been given specific responsibilities such s ASM as ASM for New Scout Patrols, or ASM for the Venture Patrol, or perhaps you mentor an ASPL? What have you done in your specific role to use the Methods of Scouting? Your personal example is the best tool you have to change others. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Youth and adults at the unit level are prohibited from seeking direct donations of funds. Asking for material donations is the same as asking for the money to buy them. Check with your local council regarding solicitation rules and policies. If you need door priyes or any other materials through the year why not budget for them? It's a bonus when something is offered to you at discounted price but, we are an organization of millions of youth and adults who are perfectly capable of providing a product or service to raise the money we need to support out programs. It is not necessary to beg hat-in-hand when we can earn our way.

ScoutingInMyBlood, Think about this. The Scout uniforf doesn't chage with the region you live in , The advancment program doesn't change with the region, the Aims and Methods of Scouting doesn't change with the region. The the raining and resources of the BSa do not change with the region. Why in the world would the administration of the troop committee change? I'm sorry but just because you have made this a habit, doesn't make it right, it just means that what you do you do a lot. I agree with some of what you say in your last paragraph certainly asking someone to step down is one way to open the position up. But that isn't what lynn was suggesting. Her group wants to elect the members and that is not the committees role, nor is it the supported by the BSA procedures. As contrary as Beavah is about this you will notice he has been unable to show anything in the BSA that supports electing committee members, thats because the BSA doesn't support it. Lynns solution is not going to be found in elections. Her solution is going to be found in getting closer to the BSA program, not further away. If the IH, CR, and CC are happy with the program and are not violating BSA policies, then it is not the role of the committee to change that. BW

Soliciting donations at the unit level is a violation of the BSA money earning Policies. Accepting donation is not a problem, asking for them is. If the unit wants to supply addition prizes to those offered by the council or popcorn distributor than they should be purchased by the unit from the proceeds of the sale.(This message has been edited by Bob White)