Bob White

"The numbers are down, why do you think the BSA is trying all sorts of gimmicks to get the boys interested?" Which "old ways" would that be? Hiking? Camping? Citizenship?, Nature Study? Woods tools? Cooking? Emergency preparedness? Swimming? Archery? Firearms? Climbing and Rappelling? Caving? Boating? Youth Leadership? Knots and Lashings? Fitness? Orienteering? Horseback riding? Backpacking? Sports? Patrol activities? ALL of course are still a part of the Boy Scouting program today as well as in the beginning of the program. How could you possibly not be aware of that So which specific "old way" that the BSA supposedly no longer has are you referring to?

Hi Speeglevillemom, I hope things do go well for you, my concern is not about what is the worst thing that can happen my concern is that the chances that the best that can happen are limited due to the level of leadership in being shown you by the District/Council people that recruited you. You do not need to live in a District that runs like clockwork to have leadership that respects they people they recruit. You admit your own concern about the lack of information you have been given, I merely agree with you that you should be concerned about it. Would you ask someone to be on staff without telliung them what they job will be, what the time committement will be what crusial deadlines they might have or wiothout the resources needed to do their job? I would hope not, however that is exactly what the DE did to you. And from your own report of the that is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems at this camp event. You have heard the complaints about the previous PD at the camp. Is there any possibillity that her problems were caused by the same leemets that you have encountered? She could very likely have entered with the same enthusiasm that you have, and with the same lack of experience, the same short timetable, the same lack of information that you have been afforded, and now they are complaining about her, after a bad camp that the DE is as much responsible for if not more responsible for due to his own poor leadership. But they aren't talking about the DE behind his back they are talking about the program director. My concern is that you have not been treated well as a volunteer, and dispite your enthusiasm you have not been given the tools to do the job. And should you not be able to overcome the poor administrative performance of the DE it is you they will be telling tales about behind your back by this time next year as they prepare to abuse yet another enthusiastic volunteer. "I understand you may have had bad experiences in the past..." On the contrary, that has not happened. As a young leader someone more experienced and wiser than I was at the time taught me how to recognize a bad situation such as this and avoid them. I learned that saying yes is nice but not always wise. So when I see someone else stepping into a trap I try to help them as I was helped. Just because someone offers you a free ride in a sinking boat you don't have to say yes, even if he offers to let you steer.

"For those who slept through Wood Badge and do not understand its goals, simply volunteer to staff the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training. If you actually read the course outline you will understand its plain meaning." Then you will have no trouble sharing with us the specific cource section that has this information is in it. Your view on the contents of Wood Badge is fantasized blather and nothing more. You are grossly misrepresenting the contents of the course. I am not sure what syllabus you read, But I assure you that I and others on this forum are far more acquainted with the contents of this syllabus, and previous ones, than you are, and what you say is not only NOT in this course, it has not been in any previous course either. Your posts are simply untrue. And I see no need to be blunt when supporting the truth. As far as how to get on my ignore list...your posts are far to humorous to merit that distinction.

You are correct SR540Beaver, there was also a content change in around 1980. I in none of those versions would anyone have been taught the drivel claimed by Kudu in his post.

Kudu, You are pedaling absolute tripe and prattle. There is not an ounc of fact in your critisism of Wood Badge. "Wood Badge (the bridge between corporate interests and volunteer training) promotes the idea that Scouting is all about abstract things like the "Aims of Scouting" or the "Mission Statement," so it is a quick bait and switch to declare that camping is "old fashioned" and that "values" can be just as easily taught to teenagers indoors or on a small Cub Scout campsite "sitting side by side with adults of character." That opinion is borne of your personal fantasies. There is nothing in the current version of Wood Badge or in the two previous versions that reflect your notion of the content of Wood Badge in the slightest. You simply have of no idea of what you speak.

What does it matter if the community sees you as OA or Boy Scouts so long as you are out there doing the service? It's not as if the general public can do antything to inmprove your membership in any way.

If the OA has an exposure problem they have created it themselves. Tell me Eagle92, as an organization of "cheerful service" what service projects (other than at you local camp(s) a couple times a year) does your local OA chapter do for either the scouting community or the community in general?

Kudu writes "Wood Badge teaches participants to receive Boy Scout Patrols as opportunities to practice Leadership Development theory. Therefore, the more elections the better because a higher turnover of Patrol Leaders and other "Positions of Responsibility" (POR) means a higher number of Scouts can learn Leadership Development theory." That is absolute gibberish, a total fallacy without any basis in either truth or knowledge. Anyone who has attended BSA Wood Badge in any of its versions knows that this is not a part of it's curriculum. A fact which has been explained to Kudu in the past and yet he continues to spout this nonsense.

But when rappelling Eagle92 you have a safety line and a person looking out for you, she has offered neither. It does not take a near perfect world for people who are supposed to be leading to look out for those they lead. Would you ask someone to be a Den Leader without first the courtesy of telling them what a Den Leader is expected to do? I understand that some see speeglevillemons leap as an adventure, it is no doubt easier to enjoy the fall when it is someone else doing the falling. I am glad she is excited about the opportunity, that certainly speaks well of her enthusiasm. But this is a task that will require more than enthusiasm. Her District/Council folks should have given her actual information, without it she has liitle to apply her enthusiasm to.

If you think I am criticizing her I am not. You did not read my posts. You also did not read her pots, because she never said that she was considering the CD position. Nor did she ask for ideas in any of her posts. She asked what her job was. And someone should have explained it to her before that asked her to accept. I am concerned for her. The people who asked her to do this job should have given her the information she is now trying to glean now from strangers. It's wonderfu; she wants to help, it would have been grand if thepeople who asked her to do it had first stopped to tell her just what the size and scope of this job is. They obviously did not, or her first post would not have been "but have no idea what all it entails". . She goes to say of the camp administration that "Everything is planned last minute so it is just thrown together and everyone runs around like chickens with their heads cut off. These are not good signs that she is going to have the needed support. I understand that she will go to training in February, but in the councils I have been in we are seding scouters to training this year for the next years camp. Asking her to learn he job in February and have everything in place befor June is too short a time period, especially when you consider this will be only her second time at camp. I think she has been done a great disserve. I wish her well and hope it works out for her but she has a tough row to hoe. As I said before she has a district/council administration that either does not care if she fails or does not know how to help her succeed. It is a good idea to stay away from either.

Unless you have evidence that anything the BSA has said thus far indicates that that they are against chivalry, honor, pride, and self-dermination or that the charater and values of scouting is no longer or no longer will be a part of the BSA programs then it seems clear that you are just doing a lot of chest thumping over nothing. This is just more "the sky is falling" mentality and it is unrelated to anything that the BSA has said or done so far. Outside of only a few advancement requirements and a few uniform changes now and again, the BSA has changed very little in your lifetime other than in your imagination of what you think it used to be like. Let's keep this in perspective. At this point in time based on the contents of the speeches and comments given by the CSO and others from the National office, what has actually been altered...NOTHING. What exactly MIGHT be altered? You haven't the foggiest. So what specific change that hasn't been announced, and hasn't actually happened, that you have no knowledge of....actually has you concerned? And why should the rest of the barnyard take it seriously?

Eagle92 The opening line of the thread is "I would like to see what the job description of Program Director for Day Camp is" I respectfully offer that she did not ask for ideas, she wanted someone to tell her what the job was. I would expect the person who asked her to take the job would have explained to her first. Wouldn't you? She may have allowed herself to be pushed, but is was a cliff all the same. Program Director is by no means a small task and should not be entered into blindly.

"Sometimes it takes fresh blood and ideas to get something going." Fresh blood can be a very good thing, have a blood letting is not. Recruiting someone with no knowledhge of the role of Program Director and no experience at it, and then not telling them what the job is or giving them the training and the resources to do it shows incredibly bad administration. It's the difference between showing someone a view from a lookout or pushing them off a cliff and telling them to enjoy the view as they fall. People pushed off the cliff rarely land well. speeglevillemom has taken a job about which she has "no idea what in entails". she has been given no details of the job, no training, and has had to resort to asking strangers for information about programing for a camp they have never seen on a budget they have no information on. She has been asked to enjoy the view on the way down. Speeglewoman I would go back to the person who asked you to jump and offer to take them with you. I would require them to get you training and resources within 30 days or they can have the job back and find a new victim. You are working for people who either do not care if you fail or do not know how to help you succeed, and you do not want to work for either. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is where comparing everything to B-Ps original program and original intent is so flawed. The original program was written for teenagers in Victorian England. B-P had no expectation that it would ever spread to so many countries and cultures or last for 100 years. His original goal was to impact the huge juvenile crime problem in his country and to better prepare young men for military service. Even Baden-Powell changed his vision of scouting during his life time, perhaps its time others did as well. Other countries with different cultures have adapted the Scouting program to their specifc cultural needs. Few other countries have the variety of cultural segmentation found in the US. Why shouldn't the BSA be able to adapt some of the program elements to fit the cultural differences of the US populace? So many of you complain in the past about the BSA's loss of membership and their lack of marketing. Here they are addressing both issues and yet you still complain. Bottom line is that these are BSA's programs. We have been offered the opportunity to deliver them to the units of their chartering organizations. You do not have to volunteer to be in a program you do not like. When the BSA changed to allow women as Scoutmasters some leaders quit, others took their place. When the uniform changed some leaders quit, others took their place. When the inner city handbook came out some leaders quit, others took their place. If the changes that develop from this new marketing strategy are not to your liking no one will make you be a scout leader...others will take your place.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Speeglevillemom Something has tickled my curiosity since your openinig post in this thread. Why would you even conider taking a job from someone who did not tell you in detail what the job was and what training and respources were available to assist you? This to me would be a huge red flag to stay away from this "opportunity". This is not a position that one should be expected to walk blindly into. The fact that they had no one developed to pass the job onto tells you that this is not a good situation. If you need to come on the Internet and ask strangers how to do this job them something is terribly amiss in your District/Council.

Chicken Little evidently lives on as a Scouter. The BSA would not be the first or only organization that has made adaptations in order to appeal to a variety of cultural heritages. Change can come in many fashions. Simply offering a variety of program options rather than what is currently offered would certainly be a "re-inventing" in the eyes of many people. Unti, that time however nothing National has done or is preparing to do has any effect on your next meeting or outing. So the sky is not falling. AS an aside, I'm not sure who Shortridge was channeling but I believe he tuned into the wrong channel. The Charter organization does not own the program...they own the unit. The BSA owns the program and the charter organization agrees to follow it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

SC_Scouter A simple solution would be for your son to begin camping with the troop prior to his joining. There is nothing in the BSA regulations that prohibits that. The troop is allowed to bring youth guests on activities and they are covered by the BSA insurance as long as they are potential members, which your son certainly qualifies for. He is not even required to have a parent or guardian with him. (Although you might attend anyway and hang around with the Scoutmaster, who know you might decide you want to join as an assistant scoutmaster.) If your son began camping with the troop in March or April, he should have sufficient experience for summer camp by July. But I would caution you against making your son or the scoutmaster believe that he is joining the troop "early". At 10 1/2 and with the Arrow of Light he is joining at a perfectly acceptable time.

If he will meet the eligibility requirements why would you say that he is joining early? Early would be if he didn't meet the requirements yet and tried to join.

poserr tool= power tool

If a group of 11 year olds what to go camping that is no concern of your as a Scoutmaster, Kids can go do anything their parents saty they can do. But is they are going to go as scouts using troopp equipments then don't you have a rewsponsibility to make sure they are trained to care for themselves and their equipment? Would you lend a poserr tool to a neighbor if you first weren't sure that he knew how to use it. Or do you not care about his safety or the condition your tool comes back in. We are't talking about overprotectiveness here we are talking about responsible behavior on the part of an adult. If you think taking a year for a new scout to learn basic skills of camping in order for a patrol to start camping on their own is then how long do you think it should take?

Scripture is not just about the past. I know that in the faith I practice scripture readings are believed to have three messages. It teaches about the nature and history of people at the time the scriptures refer to, it teaches us about the nature of God and Christ, it teaches us a lesson about who we are today. Matthew is not just telling us about the Pharisees, he is telling us about ourselves and how we should act today. Merry Christmas

I think troops can have ideal momoments. Some can have a lot of them some may have none. Some will have longer durations of them then others. Then again it depends on the leaders' knowledge and understanding of the scouting program as to whether or not they will recognize them when they occur.

No Crew21-Adv it is product sales which is allowed under the BSA unit fund raising policies. Hal gave you the correct information several posts ago.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Beavah , If you understood or practiced the program element of Patrol activities you would understand that it doesn't mean to send out patrols that are not trained. Neither does it mean to never train them enough to be able to do independent actiities. And you wouldn't be debating against it. I also said that it is not about age as you keep trying to make it. It's about skills. Skills that the Scoutmaster is supposed to insure they are learning and practicing.

Where did anyone say to send a patrol that wasn't ready. It has nothing to withage and everything to do with skill level. I certainly would never send a new Scout patrol camping by themselves, but by the end of the first year I could have them camping with adults in a different campsite near them. By the end of their second year they would have the skills needed to plan an outing outing and stay overnight on their own with no problem. And if a Scoutmaster isn't training scouts to be able to be independent then they are training them to be dependent. And that's not what they are supposed to be doing.