Bob White

Not to diminish what your are trying to start, but how does this differ from the Alpha Phi Omega? APO is a nationally recognized collegiate, coed, service organization based on the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law that in many cases is chartered as a Venturing Crew? Just curious, Bob White

A comment was made on another string that "Cub Scouting has waffled on being pro-camping (currently) to being camping is for Boy Scouts not Cub Scouts" That is an unfortunate and inaccurate perception of the Cub program. If anything the promotion of camping in cub scouting is the strongest it has ever been in the history of the Cub program. There are now a number of camping opportunities that cubs can participate in including, Day camp, Resident camp, Council/District Family camp, Pack Family Camp, and Webelos Den camping. The current Cub Leader Specific Training courses encourage Cub Leaders to take the required training to be able to camp often and correctly with their cub scouts. I know of no program recommendation or guideline discouraging cubs from camping with their peers and families. So get your Cubs outside, follow the guidelines taught in BALOO and Webelos Leader Outdoor Training for the proper methods, health and safety rules for Cub to camp. Let them enjoy the outdoors and get them to look forward to the added adventures of the more challenging methods of Boy Scout camping. Bob White

In fact, there's no SPECIAL and SPECIFIC policy to exclude any member for "moral" reasons BESIDES this "policy" to exclude gays. Thats not true TJ. You are asked if you accept the ideals of the Oath and Law, that is a moral decision. You are told to be a member you must accept the religious obligation of scouting, that is a moral decision. Your use of drugs or alcohol, as well as your ability to set a good example is considered, that is a moral decision. But yes the BSA allows the local unit to make decisions that are more restrictive than the BSA sets in many areas because it is their unit.. But they are not allowed to be less restrictive than the national organization because while it is the COs unit it is the BSAs program. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bobwhites "Contributori Fieri al Ciclo Alimentare Delle Nature" (Proud contributors to natures food chain)

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I've seen their advocates, gay or straight, vilified and told to "love it or leave it." Perhaps Sager you have read or heard volunteers inappropriately do so, but you have not seen, heard or read the BSA do so. You need to read up on the BSA's position or talk to your Scout Executive and get scouting's real take on this topic. The BSA has not villified anyone. They have said here are our aims, methods, and mission, we have the right to limit membership to those who accept and meet those elements. Membership in the BSA is not a right it's a choice, and it is BSA's right to choose. Bob White

Let's look back at the origanl post. Yarrow never said the scout could not swim, or that the scouthad not passed the swimming test. In fact Yarrow suggest that the scout has the "swimming badge", which I will presume means the Swimming Merit Badge. What yarrow says is that the parents do not feel the scout does not swim "well enough". we have no idea what the parents mean by that. Bob White

"What if the Supreme Court overturned the decision and made BSA accept gays." That is a misleading question. It suggests that the Supreme Court ruled that the BSA could restrict gays from membership. They did not. The Supreme Court determined that the BSA was a private organization and as such had complete authority over their membership. They didn't say the BSA could discriminate against gays, they said the BSA could discriminate against anyone for any reason.They determined that private citizens and organizations have freedom of association, and can choose to socialize with those they choose and to not associate with those they choose. So are you asking "What if the Supreme Court ruled that private individuals and organizations cannot select who they associate with, but could be forced by the government or special interest groups to accept however they were told, what would we do then"? I would kiss the Constitution and the Bill of Rights good-bye, because thats what it would take for the USSC to make such a ruling. If the BSA ever changes there stance on this topic it will not come from the Supreme Court or from extorcion tactics from special interest groups. It would come from meaningfull dialogue with the representatives of the BSA executive committee. A tactic not yet exercised. Thank you, Merlyn, For admitting that the BSA has a program that does not determine membership based on religion or sexuality. A national program for youth that is larger than any similar program sponsored by or directed toward gay youth members. It's even bigger than the one crew in all of Canada. Yet, the special interest groups still complain, why? because they do not want a program they can belong to. Their goal is not to participate in the BSA. They want to force acceptance of their political agenda through acceptance of a particular lifestyle by the "Boy Scouts". Please don't point to any other country and say "look what they do, why don't we?" That is a pitiful excuse for doing anything. Co-ed units in Sweden skinny-dip together, I don't think that is cause to suggest it here or to expect BSA parents to approve of the activity. Any idiot can knock a building down, But it takes a craftsman to build one Bob White

I used to be a matuawarrior.. and a good old warrior too.... Bob White

I think resources are a major problem to other groups forming their alternative scouting programs. Sorry Zahnada but that doesn't wash. The Scouting movement in this country started with Zero dollars. Individual kids reading the same book got together for shared outdoor activities. Soon organizations with similar interests sponsored regular activities based on the concepts of scouting. It took nearly 6 years for the first organized council to develop. Where are all these kids and leaders? Where is the support of even one sympathetic organization? Where are the parents wanting a gay leader for their boys? Even the "Scouting for All" organization doesn't sponsor a single youth group where they can learn character and decision making while playing in the outdoors. Their goal is not to benefit from a scouting program or even a scouting-like program. They are not looking for ways to improve service to young people. The goal is social acceptence through the coercion of the scouting program. That is not the way to win the hearts and minds of the majority. Just an observation, Bob White

"Given the huge volume of ongoing discussion about: 1) Boys earning Eagle at a young age. (12 or 13...you know what I mean) How would altering the age change the advancement requirements? A few leaders may have problems with the age of eagles but the BSA program does not. Thirteen year olds havebeen earning the eagle ward for decades Sam Walton and Ozzie nelson were bothe 13-year-old Eagle Scouts. 2) The affect of the three "G's" on older Scouts and their retention rate within the Troop. Gas, Girls and ?. Have been around for decades. Gas and girls do not chase boys from scouting, boring meetings do. How would altering the age limits improve the quality of the meetings or the abilities for the adult leaders? 3) The need for older boys to move on to high adventure programs and separate themselves from the younger boys. (The large increase each year in the Venturing Crew numbers are partial evidence of this.) Hence the New Scout Patrol program, Regular Patrols, Venture Patrols and Venturing Crews. The fact that Venturing is steadily increasing shows that it is being successful doesn't it? Why would they need to alter the age? 4) The great maturity and ability difference between a boy of 11 and a boy of 17. A rephrasing of question 3. The same answer applies. it is not that the Boy Scout program has not responded to these issues. The problem is that so many units do not follow the programs that were designed to address them. Changing ages will not make the leaders follow the program better. Bob White

Here is my problem with local option on membership. If the BSA allows each unit (and there are thousands of units)to each set their own membership policy where do we draw the line. If every unit can determine something as major as who can join, then how can the BSA say no to smaller local decisions such as advancement, uniforming, safety? How do have a national program if every unit can do whatever they want? Imagine the NFL if every team set their own rules of the game. A second question out of curiosity. If there is such a huge demand by individuals or groups who are gay, lesbian or bi-sexual to be scouts and leaders why are there no known groups formed by these people to offer a substitue program until the BSA changes thier stance. There is not one organized program I have ever heard of lead by gay leaders for gay scouts. Why is that?

In all due respect to nldscout, unless the scoutmaster was defending himself against a physical attack there is no justification for striking a scout. None. Bob White

Robin asks the important question. Why? the current ages are based on the school grade levels, the social and physiological needs of boys at various stages of development and the ability to affect the aims of scouting through specific, effective, standardized methods. On what evidence do you feel the ages need to be altered? Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm open to new information that esttablishes a need. But what evidence or reasons do you have, other than other countries do it differently?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

United Way was an offspring of Community Chest. In most communities this was a function of the Chamber of Commerce, and was used by a local community to fund the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Red Cross, Boys and Girls Clubs, the YMCA, YWCA and the Salvation Army. Bob White

This is a good example of what separates the different quality levels you find in unit scouting. Good scouting, and more importantly good leadership is a balance of several elements, all of which are controlled for the most part by the scoutmaster. The problem as presented can not be dealt with effectively through any one path. If you decide strictly by the rules then you could be endangering the scout or those in his canoe. If you go strictly by the parents you put undue tensions on an individual or individuals and spoil the event. Go by your opinion without the other people involved buying into the decision and you create bad blood with the family and possibly lose the scout. The thought processes so far in this string have focused on single element solutions. How about a mix? The SM needs some friendly communications with all the parents of the participant explaining the safety policies that the BSA and the camp require for the safety of all involved. The parents need to realize that the ultimate decision regarding their sons participation is theirs. If, after being told what the boys will be expected to do, they feel their son is not ready then it is the parents responsibility to not send the scout. On the other hand the parents need to know and appreciate the training that the scout has gone through to prepare for the activity and what skills he has been required to learn and be tested on. It is the Scoutmasters responsibility to understand the needs and characteristics of each scout. If a scout technically meets the requirements but the SM has concerns he should know that already and be making adjustments to assist the scout. These adjustments could be additional instruction, modifying the event, inviting additional expertise on the trip, manipulating the canoe pairings etc. Keep in mind the goal of the trip is not the trip itself, it is the lessons we teach during and through trip. If you end up leaving this scout behind what lesson has he learned compared to what he could have learned on the trip. Be situational managers. Be flexible enough to adjust to each scout in each situation. Deliver the aims of scouting on a personal basis to each scout, using all the leadership tools in our tool box not just the ones we have grown the most comfortable with. Bob White PS I have to admit to some personal discomfort with the derogatory tone used with rules police. As a child when someone didnt follow the rules they were called cheats, the ones that did follow the rules were called good sports. As an adult when people dont follow the rules of the community we call them criminals, and the ones who do follow the rules we called good neighbors. But for some reason in scouting if a scouter follows the rules we deride them. The few rules we have in scouting are there to protect scouts from adults and protect adults from themselves. If we operated this program based on common sense we would have a lot of injured scouts. The problem with common sense is its not common.

The Guide to safe scouting is specific. Corporal punishment is forbidden in scouting. Regardless of what language your son may have used (if your son said something that bad that another adult reacted by slapping his mouth perhaps the leadership skills of the SM is not your biggest problem)striking the scout is not an option. In addition I was wondering who else was in the parkinglot when you pulled up? If it was just the SM and your son then you have another Youth Protection violation. Dsteele is correct. You need to contact your council's Scout Executive. You also have rights outside of scouting that you can excercise but that is a personal choice you will need to make yourself, a lawyer could give you better advice on that than a bunch of scouters. I would not ignore the SM behaviour, nor would I ignore your son's. Bob White

Hi Saltheart, You turn a good phrase. To answer your question regarding my status in scouting, I am and have always been a volunteer. However, I have the same commission from the national organization that Dsteele and his professional peers have, and I take it seriously (perhaps too seriously at times). I will likely stay out of this string as well depending on the path it takes. I really see two topics here. The BSA membership policies which I do not care to get in a spitting contest over, and the current trend of the local United Ways to fund illnesses rather than the cures. Our local council deals with 14 county United Ways and the one in my home county, despite raising more money this year than last year, has cut the BSA allocation by $15,000. We are appealing that decision and asking the UW to return us to last years level. The majority of the UW agencies our county chapter funds either styed the same as last year or went up with two notable exceptions. The Boy Scouts and the Girls Scouts were hit with large cuts to finance the agencies that got increases. As part of that process, I was asked, along with some other area volunteers, to write to the UW executive committee and express our concern for their actions and remind them of the importance of the BSA program to the community. I have always supported the UW financially and emotionally only because the BSA was one of the founding organizations that created UW. I am proud that our local council is a UW agency and I appreciate the funds that we get from them. BUT, that does not give them the right to dictate what our program should be. They should be funding us for who we are, not for who they want us to be. Bob White

Laura, Introduction to Outdoor Skills is only required to attend WB as a troop leader if you are a SM or ASM. If you are a troop committee member you need only have completed basic training for that position, which is New Leader Essentials and Troop Committee Challenge. The training continuum only requires that a WB attendee be a registered adult member of the BSA and have completed Basic Training for their position in scouting for which they are taking the Wood Badge course. It would be unfortunate and unnecessary for any council to add-on to these requirements. Bob White

Nation gives local councils the authority to approve the use of the BSA trademarks namely the uniform name and insignias of the scouting program. The local unit units do not have legal authority to use the image of scouting woithout permission as the unit does not own the image or name of scouting. The local legal entity is the council. You are not asking the council if you can do the fundraiser. You are asking if you can look like scouts and mention scouting during the promotion, the activity, and the delivery of products. If you use the name or image of the BSA without permission you could find yourself in violation of the law and operating the event without liability insurance from the BSA. S if a customer were to be injured or made ill from participating in the event every adult involved could be held personally liable. So you can do a fundraiser without notifying council but the question becomes...to paraphrase dirty Harry, "So tell me do feel lucky today?" because just one little thing needs to go wrong and you could find yourself in a world of trouble. Hope this explains it. Bob White

Ed, I'm very sorry to here of the tragic loss in your scouting family. Our prayers go out to the scout, his family and friends. Bob White

Back In the 80's the troop I served as SM formed a special flag ceremony team. We were more scout like in style than military. By that I mean we did not do a fancy march step march although they walked in unison. We had a scout calling commands and we followed proper flag ettiquette. They wore a complete current uniform with the only addition being a special neckerchief (no spats or gloves etc.) To be involved you needed a complete uniform and you had to participate in a 4 hour program on flag ettiquette and basic presentation formats. Once you participated in a set number of public ceremonies (I think it was 9) you got to keep the neckerchief. Bob White

Keep in mind that many of the things listed are misconceptions deliberately started and spread by individuals and groups with specific political agendas. No amount of contradiction will change their minds, it would only give them a larger forum than deserved. Some of the misconcptions listed are fueled by our own volunteers who through lack of training simply don't know better. In these cases the BSA's efforts are to promote training rather than argue the specific points. The people with United Way who determine the distribution of the funds are commnity volunteers just like us. We speak of "them" just like many of us refer to "council" as though they are some faceless beings. But "they" are our neighbors and business associates. They will know who we are and what scouting really stands for by our actions. If you are concerned that they think we are a white christian organization then make efforts to diversify the membership in the unit you serve, or assist your local Scoutreach professional in their efforts to reach other cultures in your community. Work with your local professional staff and visit the National web-site. Learn what the BSA's true feelings and beliefs are when it comes to its membership rules, and when someone asks, explain to them what the real issues are. Don't feed the fires of controversy. Speak positively in public of the organization, and the work accomplished in the unit, community, and nation that are serve through the scouting program. Get trained and use the program. When the public sees dozens of units all doing scouting a different way it is difficult for them to comprehend who we are and what we do. Food for thought, Bob White

We have never had a rule on cell phones or phone cards in any troop I have been associated with. we hve never even discussed it. If a scout has ever brought one it was never used as far as I know and never interferred with the program. I think the key is to focus on the quality and amount of activity and there would be no need for the scout to ever use them or to create a rule to control them. But I realize that in some communities the culture may be different. As far as summer camp, our camp has a pay phone and their rule is an adult from your unit must be present when you use it. (sorry about the time...pizza I had for supper is talking back to me.) Bob White

Hops scout and others will be happy to know that the Field Book is going through a major revision and is scheduled for relase late in 2003. Bob White