Bob White

Here in my neck of the woods 'brother-units' are called 'feeder-packs'. Another relationship that is not recognized anywhere in the scouting program. It gives the impression that the cubs in that pack have no choice but to go to that one troop. A perception that keeps many boys from crossing into Boy Scouts. And does little to improve either program but tends to promote complacency in program activities.In the same vein Class B means different things to different people. Now I know this apology is going to get me in trouble because it reads differently than how I intend it. But I was in error to assume you were a new leader based only on the misconceptions that you had on scouting and I am sorry if I caused you any embarrassment. That being said since you had been a Boy scout and an OA member as a youth and now an adult scouter for so many years I am surprised that you did not realize that the OA was a Boy Scout program and that Cub Scouts and Ventures are a differnet division of scouting. For the same reason that a Boy Scout Leader cannot earn the Cub Leader Training Award unless they are registered in a pack, a Pack Leader cannot become an OA candidate unless registered as a Boy Scout Leader. The exception being the council and district committees can put up scouters who serve on those levels since they are not connected to any specific program unit. Bob White

I have looked at this string a couple of times and want to revisit the YP training tape and the SM Leader Specific training, to be sure, but I recall that both those souces say what the Cub Leader specific training says and that is you need two adults at meetings, the only exception being patrol meetings. So I will check the videos and get back to you. However.....even if they do not say it is required I would NEVER have an activity outside of a patrol, without two adults. It is nearly impossible to avoid one on one contact at some point when a second adult is not around. Plus it is poor emergency preparedness to only have one adult at a den or troop meeting. The Guide to Safe Scouting describes Two Deep Ladership as Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout. I would never consider being in public, such as at a McDonalds, as way to meet the requirements of two deep leadership. You need to have a second adult who is focused on the activity at hand not just a causual passerby. Some adult sitting at the same restaurant or whatever the situation is not familiar with what is appropriate or required behaviour for scouting, they aren't paying attention to the comings and goings of the youth or adult. This kind of casual, unknown witnessing is not going to be able to protect you or the youth in a YP situation. Why wouyld anyone look for short cuts or "minimal" protection for their scouts or themselves? two deep leadership is a "minimum" protection. I would never seek to loer that even if the letter of the rule did not require it. Patrol activities excepted. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Twocubdad, Part of the problem could be that as a fairly new leader you have a limited understanding of the program outside of your current responsibility. You are basing your expectations of the OA on some flawed premises. Brotherunit, camping is the core of membership in the OA, former youth members of the OA, Troops and teams not referred to?  as explained before there are no such things as brother units  Camping is a requirement for candidacy but service is the core of OA.  Once inducted into the OA you are a member for life. Keeping up on your scouting membership and OA dues makes you an active member.  The selection rules specifically state that the elections come form troops and teams only and that adult nomination come from the units where those elections are held for adults in those units. That seems pretty clear. What might help would be if you spoke to your local council OA advisor. Bob White

matua, here is a page from the National OA website. www.oa-bsa.org Q/A: Venturing Crew Elections Q: There has been some disagreement as to whether or not Venturing Crews can have OA elections and elect candidates for OA membership. Some people in our lodge say they can, while our Lodge Adviser says they can not. Can you please clear this up for us? A: Your lodge adviser is correct. Order of the Arrow elections can be held in Boy Scout Troops and Varsity Scout Teams only. For more details, see Operations Update 99-2, available on this web site Twocubdad The same site refers to the passage I have already posted regarding adult selections, which states that the adult leader must be nominated from the unit that held an election where on youth was selected. Since only troops and teams may hold elections only adults registered to the troop or teams may be selected. Bob White

You will find that rank and advancement awards are not for adults to earn or display on their uniforms with the exception of the Eagle Knot and the Arrow of Light Knot. Adults have ample recognitions that they are eligible to earn. They are awards that represent the areas of activity that adults need to be proficient in. Training, service, participation. To learn more you should read the BSA Insignia Guide available at your local council service center. Bob White

we are trying to get you to understand twocubdad that the OA is for the traditional Boy Scout program which includes Varsity teams but not Cub packs or Venturing Crews. You are trying to hard to read more into the rules than there is. I wish you luck, but you will find that your local OA selection committee will require all youth and adult members be registered a troop or team members. Bob White

Nicely explained Silver Shark. BW

"Should cub packs camp at camporees like the troops do?" No, cub style camping is different. They should not camp like troops. They should folow the camping style outlined in the BALOO training program. "should the cub packs camp at a different cub venue, i.e. their own camporee?" Sure, why not? As long as there is a responsible parent or assigned adult for each child in keeping with the cub camping rules outlined in BALOO training. "Do you think this takes away from the boy scout camporee program, which is set up for a weekend of camping." I think it enhances the Cub program as long as the cubs have separate, age appropriate activities from the Boy Scouts and camp in their own site according to the Cub Camoing regulations outlined in.....BALOO training of course. "Do you think this would diminish the excitement that a cub has in looking forward to joining boy scouts." Not if done correctly by following the the camping and activity recommendations found where? Let's here more from the tenors! BALOO Training. "do believe/encourage webelos dens to camp with a troop at all camporees, this thread is directed at cub packs camping alongside troops." OOPS! Thats the only place you went astray. The BSA program does not recommend that Webelos participate with, or camp with, Troops at camporees. This is fine on a unit campout but Districts and Councils have specific instructions against a mixed camporee. Each program must have its own age appropriate activities and separate camp sites. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

But there is somewhere else to turn to, the BSA. it's a good idea to use and follow the current information available from the BSA and on hand at your local council service center. Following individual unit information is like an old familiy recipe where each generation changes it a little here and a little there. Before you know it it tastes nothing like the actual dish. Always start with the original recipe. Use the Official BSA resources to learn the actual BSA program. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

First twocub dad, there is no such term in the BSA as a "brother unit". troops, packs, teams and crews are all separate charters, individual units even if held by the same chartering organizations. Second, they can only offer for membership adults within that unit. Third, the eligle units are Boy Scout Troops and Varsity Teams, not Venturing Crews, and it is not an inference it is stated specifically. "Each year, upon holding a troop or team election for youth candidates If still unclear contact the Adult advisor for your local Council OA chapter and they will explain it again. Hope this helps more, Bob White

"Each year, upon holding a troop or team election for youth candidates that results in at least one youth candidate being elected, the unit committee may recommend one adult for every 50 youth members to the lodge candidate selection committee. So if a troop or team elects a youth then that units committee can put one adult leader in that unit up for membership. This excludes adults who are not registered, or not in a Troop or Tteam program from membership in the OA. Cub Leaders and Venturing leaders are inelligible unless dual registered in a troop or team. If this is still unclear contact your local OA adult advisor and they will will explain it also. Hope this helps, Al (This message has been edited by Bob White)

A total wish on your part and not required by any court decision or federal law to date. The fact remains. Although scouting has voluntarily rescinded charters from a few public COs who decided they could not accept the membership regulations (by the way in most cases those organizations signed Learning for Life/ exploring charters) There has yet to be a court decision or federal law banning scouting from being used by public or governemental COs. Scouting supports an organization's right to choose to not use the scouting program. They do not support the organizations authority to change the scouting program. Bob White

MK9750, I think you have a good handle on the relationship between the adults and the PLC. The SM should help the Senior Patrol Leader to arrive at the decisions that need to be considered. The SPL should help the Patrol Leaders with the decisions that must be made. The other adults help to support the decisions arrived at by the PLC. Bob

The Order of the Arrow handbook. or http://www.oa-bsa.org/programs/ttr/ttrpak/A1-Unit-Elections.pdf page A1.2 Section;Adult Membership Qualifications Subsection;Adult Leaders in Units BW

Sorry to post so soon again but Merlyn asked a direct question of me I would like to resond to. "Tell me, do you approve of a public school running a youth group that excludes atheists?" I believe in the American judicial system. I believe that public Schools should do what is legal and within their authority. If a local comunity should pass a law making it illegal for public schools to charter a scout unit then I would expect them to comply with that law. That however does not give them autority to change the scouting program, it gives them the choice to not have one, a choice they had even before the law existed. Another totally innacurate statement you made was "No, any government agency has to treat all religions equally. That means if catholics can have BSA recognized religious awards, UUs get to, also. Atheists too, for that matter. At no time has the BSA said that these groups cannot have a religious award. The BSA has no authority over any religion, its recognitions or requirements. The BSA has said that the awrd is not approved for wear on the BSA Uniform. The government has no authority over the BSA uniform it's use or display. It is owned and regulated by the BSA. There are a number of awards not approved for wear on the uniform. I continue to wonder what your prpose is by posting on this board. If you wanted retail stores to quit selling hamburgers would you get on a Mcdonalds board and protest the ingredients of a Big Mac? For what possible purpose? I would hope you would find a board directed at retail outlests and complain to them. If your problem is that you don't want the governemnt to support groups that discriminate against Atheists, why aren't you spending time telling the government. I appreciate the and accept any organization that shares the same values of of the scouting program and wants to use it to benefit youth. I have enough confidence in what we do as Scout volunteers and in the program we represent that if any Charter orgnization decided to drop scouting I know it would have little effect over the ability of the program to survive. But I resent the implication that we can be forced to change our values through financial coersion as you suggest. "This is why the BSA will have to forgo 10,000 units currently chartered to government agencies; the government can't treat people differently depending on their religious beliefs." A total wish on your part and not required by any court decision or federal law to date. Bob White

TJ, This is the kind of hyperbole that fosters misunderstanding of the BSA in and out of scouting. Scouting signals to gay youth who are coming to grips with this fact that they are immoral and unworthy of membership If their self worth is based on whether or not they are scouts then their personal problems are already beyond those addressed by the scouting movement. If they wanted to be lifeguards they should expect to have to get in the water and swim. If you really want to be a scout then you should really want to accept the rules of scouting. "Scouting would eject a 16-year-old member who works on camp staff and answers honestly to a question posed to him by camp leadership and confirms he is gay (another true story, though the Scout was later reinstated because the leadership violated the "don't ask" practice of the BSA)" No scouting would not do that, and that is why the youth was reinstated. An individual volunteer made a mistake and the BSA corrected it. "Scouting will eject a member (youth or adult) who publicly disagrees with the BSA Inc. policy (whether they are gay or not)" No, the BSA could do so, but each case is considered on its own merits. So it is not that they "will" it's more a case of they "could". Scouting will eject long-time leaders who grew up in the organization and have served with astonishing contributions back to Scouting, if it becomes publicly known that they have formed a committed, life-time relationship with another man" Well sure, they broke the rules. Remember the adage "you can't have your cake and eat it too"? If you want to be a member you have to accept the membership conditions. If the membership rules of the Rotary Club (just as a what if) said you had to attend every meeting without fail and you chose not to attend a meeting, then you accept the chance that your membership might be revoked. Even if you are a past president and 20 year member. The BSA doesn't say anything about altering the rules based on rank or tenure. Scouting will pull the charters of a Cub Scout pack whose parents write a letter to their Council Scout Executive stating their opposition to the policy and their willingness to accept a gay leader if one applies" The Pack very arrogantly overstepped their authority. They should have stopped at the point that they disagreed and wanted to see the rules changed. It wasn't until they avowed to break the regulations that they lost their charter. You cannot break the rules just because they don't suit you. You can work within the guidelines to change the rules, but until they change you are bound by their governance or accept the consequences. "Scouting (for no reason other than leadership believes gays are immoral) teaches all of its youth members that this is a true statement and it is acceptable to discriminate against gays Absolute rubbish!!!! Nowhere does the scouting program teach such nonsense to the the membership. Do some individuals or chater organizations? I don't know. But it is not part of the BSA program, and never has been. "Scouting's policy doesn't ban gays, it just forces them to remain closeted or get out, which is not healthy for the individual or the organization." Well you are half right. As far as whether or not it is healthy for gays, I would not know, nor is it the mission of the BSA to determine that. The BSA supports activities that lead to healthy minds and bodies. If following the BSA regulations prohibits that, then I think BSA would rather you do what's healthiest for you. If that means forfeiting your membership in the BSA for your personal health I think the BSA would be in full support of your decision. Why would anyone risk their personal well being just for membership in a club? "Scouting violates its own declaration of religious principles, forcing young members to accept the teachings of one Church over another. TJ you need to return to scout leader training because this is just out and out wrong. The BSA takes no such stance in any of its activities, training, or methods. You have a skewed perception based on your personal wants, none of which are supported in any way in BSA resources or actions. "BSA Inc. has adopted a policy and is forcing that point of few on every leader, sponsor and parent that supports Scouting, forcing them to choose between their principles and the incredible value of Scouting For the vast majority of its youth and adult membership their priciples and values of are identical to those of the BSA. Scouting is becoming very stigmatized and jaded in the view of many young parents with kids coming of age, and is becoming positioned as something we're not (a religious, specifically Christian-only, organization) A personal opinion not based on any actual evidence such as the resources or published positions of the BSA, or any statistics reflecting those conclusions. I am confused by your constant assertions as to your dedication to a program that you have so many misconceptions of. I have a friend of many years in scouting who if he told me he was gay I would not be the least bit surprised. He is an excellent SM and an excellent trainer. I have never asked about his sexual preferences, nor have I asked any adult I have ever met in my entire life. He knows and he teaches others what the membership rules are. If he were to go public I am confident he would resign from the BSA first. He understands personal choice. He knew the rules going in and he would understand them going out. This is a mature leader, he doesn't expect to get everything just because he wants everything. He sees life a series of choices and for now he has made his. Scouting has made theirs. Just because you want to stay in the BSA does NOT make it your right. You are currently deceiving yourself and scouting. The question is is that an honest and mature choice for either? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn again does not give a clear picture of the scouting movement. First, how is it the BSA is to remove reigious foundations but accept the UU's an Wiccan religious Awards? Isn't that a catch-22. Unitarians and Wiccans are not barred from membership as individuals as long as they accept and meet the membership requirements. Most Unitarians are not Athiestic and there are Wicca's who do meet the BSA membership requirements for religious obligation. The two "organizations" do not qualify as charter organizations or with their religious awards since they both insist on allowing homosexuals as members in thier units, and their religious awards include philosophies not in keeping with those of the Boy Scouts of America and so are not recognized by the BSA. They are recognized as religions, and their individual followers are considered for membership. The organizations are not acceptable sponsors and their awards are not approved for wear on the Boy Scout Uniform. To say you would accept Boy Scouts without religion is like accepting hamburger if it didn't have any animal meat in it. Do not be decieved by Merlyn. His goal is not to change Scouting. His goal is to end the program, period. Bob White TJhammer, Your historic recollection of the BSA is not accurate. Membership has always been controlled by the national office. The rules of membership have always been that the CO can be more restrictive but not less. What has changed is the media's interest in reporting this topic and the speed with which news is capable of being spread, along with stronger lobbying abilities of special interest groups. But the ideals of scouting have remained consistent. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Thanks for the additional input Barry. My apologies for missing the spelling of Sergeant. BW

Twocub, you failed to mention the first adult requirement, which is the adult must be a registered member of the Troop or Team holding the election. A Cub Scout Leader is not eligible for the OA. You must be a registered member of a Boy Scout troop or Varsity Team. Bob White

"my son's original Cub Scout Pack was abandoned by its CO as a result of the SCOTUS decision An interesting choice of words. Consider this, if your son was a member of the youth choir at your church, and for whatever reason the church decided not to have a youth choir, would you say the church no longer has a youth choir or the church abandoned my sons choir? The pack was formed by the Charter Organization before your son was a member. It is their Pack. They did not abandon your son, they chose to no longer have a scouting program. The only people who abandon scouting are those who believe in scouting but who do not support it verbally, physically or financially. Bob White

TJ I don't believe you need to satisfy all variations of a single definition for the word to apply, you only need to fulfill one. It is unfortunate as an adult scouter that you would take any action that you were not proud of. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Tj Allow me to specifically address your response. "I stand by what I have already said on the measure of "avowing"... you can make up your own definitions, but the truth is they are only your interpretation," No, actually it is the dictionary definition of the word avow. Main Entry: avow Pronunciation: &-'vau Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French avouer, from Latin advocare Date: 14th century 1 : to declare assuredly 2 : to declare openly, bluntly, and without shame synonym see ACKNOWLEDGE, ASSERT - avower /-'vau(-&)r/ noun So publicly posting your sexuality to have avowed to it. That puts you in conflict with membership in the BSA. "By your standards, BobWhite, this would mean just about everyone that has ever posted on this forum opposing the BSA's policy should have their membership revoked." Not 'should', COULD. "It's regrettable that you also, not knowing me at all or having never worked near me in Scouting or seen how I conduct my role in the program, would want to hunt me down and get me kicked out if you could." A bald faced fabrication. I specifically said I would not do that, and I pointed out that to hunt you down would be contrary to the philosophy of the BSA. I said if you were in my council and I knew who you were I would honor the commission I accepted. Your performance as a scoutleader to this point is irrelevant. The fact is, by publicly denouncing the policies of the BSA and openly stating that you do not meet the membership requirements you have chosen to forfiet your membership. "It should also mean that the BSA will revoke membership of all those clergy from chartering partner churches who disagree with BSA (like some of the Methodists, etc" No, only the clergy who were registered members of the BSA would be in danger of having membership revoked. You keep leaving out a very key element. The BSA does not say you do not have the right to disagree! They are telling you you do not have a right to disagree AND stay a member of the BSA. You can protest all you want on any BSA topic you choose. But as a private organization the BSA can choose its membership based on association with people who have like beliefs, that is what the Supreme Court Ruling was about. The BSA's right to free association, not about their right to ban gays. When referencing the the strings mentioned in your post remember that a number of the leaders posted their personal opinion and not the policies or position of the BSA. There are a number of factors that can cause revocation, homosexuality and atheism are just the two that get the greatest attention. Bob White

It appears to me thast dsteele showed a very accurate understanding of the BSA membership policy. Tjhammer merely by publicizing your disagreement with the BSA memership policies on a public bulletin board you have violated your agreement with the BSA. By announcing your homosexuality publicly you are by definition an avowed homosexual. I think TJ you don't fully understand the membership rules. You do not have to be an avowed homosexual just to be ineligble for membership. You just have to publicly disagree with scouting's membership rules to have your membership revoked. The BSA requires you to support the rules and regulations of the program or to deal with your disagreement through the proper scouting channels. To publicly disagree with the BSA opens you up for revocation of membership. You have a right to free speech and that is recognized by scouting. What you do not have is a right to membership in the BSA. That is what was upheld in the US Supreme Court, not the right of the BSA to withold membership from gays and atheists, but the right of the BSA to withhold membership from ANYONE it chooses. As DS said if he wanted to he could probably figure out who you are, but will not. That again is in keeping with the philosophy of the BSA. Although many of us on this site are commissioned scouters we work primarily for the scouts in our local councils and communities. I doubt that any of are interested in chasing done another council's membership problem. I am also in the Midwest if I knew you were in the Council I served and knew your identity I would take the required steps to have your membership revoked. Merlyn is another story. You cannot revoke the membership of someone who is not a member. No one who has spent any time at all in Scouting would have as little knowledge of the program as Merlyn has displayed. He is simply a very unhappy person who is looking for some bit of personal fullfillment through his verbal war to eliminate the BSA. I wish him well. As the operators of this board explain, this is a public forum, as such you can ask questions about Scouting policy, but if you support an opposing opinion or avow to characteristics that are not in keeping with the BSA membership policies you do indeed court permanent revocation of your BSA membership. Bob White

No one has posted here in a few days so I will stir the pot a little. When does the SM or another adult give input during the PLC meeting. The from the Scoutmaster Handbook, and from the Scoutmaster/Asst. SM Leader Specific Training, as well as from converstaions with some of the people responsible for authoring the BSA Handbook, SM Handbook and Othe BSA training syllabi. (the style of presentation is my own. The majority of the SM work is done before and after the PLC. (Just as the majority of the SM work at troop meetings is before and after not during). During the meeting the SM acts as the Sargent at Arms. He or she is there to make sure that no one interrupts the flow of the meeting and to insure the rules of Scouting are not violated. That being the case the only items that required the SM to step in were the last two. The PLC meeting belongs to the boys. The only adult in the meeting should be the SM unless the SPL has invited another adult to be there for a specific reason. Once you get more than one adult in the room the scouts will naturely look to the adults for direction. This tends to create puppets rather than leaders. I especially like Matua's style. Listen to what is going on but dont make eye contact or send body language to influence their decision making. You are there to make sure that time is not wasted taliking about the football game, or the latest Jim Carey movie. When they start to stray from troop business you give the SPL a signal to let him know it's time to rein in the horses and get back on the path. Many of you commented on reminding the scouts to check with the committee treasurer regarding a decision. That recommendation should go to the SPL after the meeting, not during. You might even ask him which member of his cabinet should make that contact, he will hopefully decide to give that responsibility to the troop treasurer. But it is in this brief meeting after the PLC that you do some of your leadership coaching with the SPL and in doing so teach him how to coach the Patrol Leaders and other junior leaders. (A brief nod to the Youth Protection policies. Although you are the only adult "in the meeting" you need to have another person 18-years of age or older who is nearby paying attention to what is transpiring.) So follow the lead of Matua, bring a book to divert your eyes and body language, listen to what goes on, step in briefly to get them back to business or to enforce BSA policies. Do your correcting and leadership development AFTER the meeting, with the SPL. Encourage him to do the same with the other junior leaders. (Tip of the Month) One more thing. Just as the SM does a SM Minute afetr the troop meeting, I strongly recommend you teach the SPL how to do a short leadership skill training at the end of the PLC. Take one skill a month, coach teh SPL on how to present it and have each of the other leaders give examples on how they could display the use of the skill in their role in the troop during the next four weeks. This is a very powerful tools and generates instant results. Be sure to personally recognize each scout you see use the skill. (sidebar) Be specific when you praise a scout. "Paul I noticed that you created a hands on activity for the scouts to learn the skill. That was a great teaching tool. People remember more when they do something themselves rather than just hear about it or watch someone else do it." Thanks for participating, Bob White

I applaud you for what you are trying to do SPL. But building a troop is not a one person job regardless of the age or motivation of the person. As the Spl the best thing I can recommend to you is don't worry about how many scouts show up (and by the way if yo have 5 scouts under 18 then you have 5 scouts. At 18 a scout ages out of the youth program and to be a member must register as an Assistant Scoutmaster.) focus on the activities that you have planned for them to do. Plan an outdoor activity every month whether it's an overnight campout, a day hike, an afternoon fishing, biking to the local pool together, whatever. But get out and DO STUFF. next start inviting friends. Don't invite them to join scouting, invite them to go camping, or canoeing, or fishing, or hiking or whatever. Let them discover that you do these thing as scouts, but first let them experience the things you do and the people you are. Let your scoutmaster and Troop Committee know that you want to do stuff and need their support, let them know what you want to learn, where you want to go, and that you want to see the troop grow and for that you need their participation. Get everyone trained, from you on down to the last committee member. Scouting is a game with a pupose. You all need to learn what the purpose is and the specific methods used by scouting to achieve that purpose. If you don't have one yet ask your SM to buy you the Senior patrol Leaders Handbook. It will tell you what your job responsibilities are and how to achieve them. Happy Scouting, Bob White