Bob White

Den "family" camping?

The problem fotoscout is "they can earn the card only if" that is requiring! Unless the next words you type are "complete the requirements as presented in their handbook" then you are wrong. Scout advancement is outlined in the boy's handbook and requirements are determined only by the BSA. If you were to read the BSA advancement policies in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual you would find that no Council, District, Unit, or individual has the authority to add to, or subtract from, any advancement requirement in the scouting program. You cannot add to the 'whittlin chip' by saying they can only earn it if they purchase something. They earn it if they complete the requirements in the handbook. Your promise to the BSA was to follow the program, not to alter it. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Next year my boys can earn their Whittling Chip. I think Ill tell them, followed up with a letter, telling them that they can earn the card only if they have purchased a knife and sheath with their own money. I hope you are joking. You do not have the authority to add to the advancement requirements. BW

Please ASM1, I am not a screamer. I will state with quiet calmness that comes from an understanding of the BSA membership process that you are incorrect. The criminal check done by the BSA is done as a service to the charter organization and as a protection for the scouts we serve. It does not replace the responsibility of the individual charter organizations to select and approve their own leaders. The criminal check does nothing more than to verify that the applicant does not have a criminal history that would prohibit their membership. The CO still has total authority to accept or deny the membership once the applicant is cleared by the BSA, and thetu may reject that membership for any reason they so choose. Bob White

First I would thank the man for his $200 donation to the local Scouting program (and make a note that this is a $200 donor for next year). Don't tell him he may have been duped (you may suspect it but we don't know for sure). Contact your DE's and FOS chairs, remind everyone that we don't do door to door andd make sure the Districts are complying. If no one knows of anyone going door to door I would take the next step. I would probaly go a few doors down from this fellow and ask some neighbors if they gave to BSA the same way. If they have I would call my contacts at the police dept. and let them take over. Once I was convinced this was a fraud I would ask the local paper to warn residents and to give them a safe way to make their donation to the scout council. (I really hate essay tets DS, make the next one True/false or multiple choice. Okay?) Bob White

Thanks DS I was startin' to think you didn't like me. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I honestly don't know what causes someone to be racist. I wish I could remember the comedian, perhaps it was Steve Martin, who said "There are some people in this world who can't get along with some other people...and I hate people who are like that!" BW

Scouting is filled with little nuances of activities. Things that seem to look "good in the book" but not feasible in feal life. On closer inspection it's these little activities that teach the most important lessons (and real life is what you make it). Dues is one of these. Teaching scouts at an early age the care and handling of a budget is an important life lesson. It is the weekly use of this skill that turns it into a lifelong habit. Den dues is not tough to do if you teach the cubs how and why it is done. The simpliest method I have seen is the monthly dues envelope. Each week the Denner hands each boy a dues envelope that has their name on it. The boys put in a dollar a week during a single month and the den leader or asst reminds them of how much should now be in their envelope that week. At the end of the month, the adult leaders checks the amount in the envelope and complete the dues report to the pack treasurer. At the first meeting of the month the process starts again. If a scouts dues envelope is short at month's end the den leader can speak with the parents about the lessons that the program is trying to teach the scout regarding personal responsibility and work with the parent and cub to get caught up. When my wife was a den leader she suggested to the parents that each cub be given a special work detail at home each week that earned hin his den dues. Many families used this to begin their allowance program and a family budget with their sons. Bob White

Advance on Congrats on earning your Wood Badge training recognition. Since the Roundtable has adjourned for the summer, how about inviting dome family friends and scout friends to a local park for a picnic and recieve your beads there. I think getting them in front of your fellow scouters would be an appropriate and meaningful moment for you, and could be a motivation to some of your scouting friends to attend WB. Who knows when a family member, co-worker or neighbor who attends sees the depth of your committment and the fun that you have they might join scouting as well. Best wishes, Bob White

I never said or suggested not to meet the needs of the participants or answer any questions that arise. Only that each training module has a specific purpose for existing and a specific content that must be shared each time it is presented. My experience training Cub leaders in multiple councils does not jive with your assumption that most Cubmasters come from experienced den leaders. Although some do, my experience is the vast majority do not. Den leaders are nearly always a parent of a scout in that den and they tend to stay with the same den through Webelos, and then leave pack scouting when their son does. The majority of Cubmasters that I have known, worked with, and trained were either new to scouting, came up from the committee, or served previously as assistant cubmasters. There is nothing wrong with the Cubmaster training being a basic one. Everyone has to start somewhere no matter what their role, and the responsibilities, goals, and resources for being the CM are vastly different from those of a den leader. Being a Den Leader no more prepares you to be a Cubmaster than being an Eagle Scout prepares you for being a Scoutmaster. Imagine if every little league coach taught the basics of baseball differently. If each team had a different idea of the rules, the scoring, the positions etc. How could two teams ever have a game together that made sense? How could a player go from one team to another without having to learn the game all over again? What if each player on the same team had a different understanding of how the game was played? The coach has ample opportunities to instill his/her own methods in how he or she teaches and motivates. They can even customize plays that stay within the boundaries set by the league. But they have a resposibility to the players and to the league to teach the same fundementals to everyone so that everybody understands the same game. A Scouting trainer is no different. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

(sidebar) The Scout Law does indeed contain the words "A Scout is" The Boy Scout Handbook and the Scouting.org website both show the Scout Law Beginning with these thre important words. BW

My issue with sheath knife safety is not in the use but in the carrying. I have seen very few sheath knives stored in a sheath that is substantial enough in quality, material or construction to protect someone in a fall or collision. Let's face it, scouts tend to move with great enthusiasm (read as "run with wreckless abandon") more so than adults do. So while I think fixed blades might be a much better adult tool than youth tool, it seems logical that if we want scouts to carry pocket knives it is important that we set the example. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Local rules and individual interpretations of BSA regulations aside, scouts should be learning good decision making. Teaching a scout to bring a tool hiking or camping that is oversized for the purpose, or has no purpose, is not a good life lesson to teach. If Matua's group has a need for a machete, and they have been taught the care, maintenance, and safe use of a machete then should have one. If Ed's group can accomplish the tasks at hand with a pocketknife, and they have learned the care, maintenance, and safe use of a pocketknife, then they should have one. Le Voyageur I think would back me up when I say that a skilled outdoorsman brings what they need, and that function, size and weight are vital elements when choosing gear. A pocketknife is not a good tool for aquatic activities. Big fires, big knives, big flashlights, big stoves, are rarely signs of a skilled camper. Bob White

tjhammer has been mislead to believe that the BSA equates Homosexuality with child abuse. Allow me to share excerpts from the BSA national Website responding to those errant assertions. This is from the "In Support of Values" page and titled 'Fact or Fiction' FICTION The Boy Scouts of America has chosen to exclude avowed homosexuals from the ranks of its members and leaders because of a fear of pedophilia. FACT The BSA does not equate homosexuality and pedophilia, but neither avowed homosexuals nor pedophiles are appropriate role models for Scouting youth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FICTION The Boy Scouts of America is homophobic. FACT There is a difference between homophobia and spiritually based morals. The first is an irrational fear of the unknown and implies a desire to eradicate anyone suspected of behavior associated with homosexuality. The second recognizes values embraced by the majority of Americans who adhere to religious principles. The reason that the excuse of child abuse is "unspoken" in the BSA is that it's not the reason that BSA excludes homosexuals. I really think that the people upset about not being allowed membership think that the BSA is saying they are bad people. They are not. It is no different than a child who is reprimanded by a parent might feel that the parent doesn't love them. When in fact the parent loves them so much that they don't want to see them behave in a way that is not in keeping with the values and beliefs that their family is built upon. Hopefully as the child gains maturity they see that it was the action that the parent could not tolerate, and the value of the child was not in question. Posts I have read from people who have lost or are in danger of loosing their membership have the attitude of the child, they believe scouting is saying that they are not valued as a person. What scouting is saying is that behavior is not acceptable by the values we have chosen to build the program on. The BSA does not demand they change, they have never condemned them, they have never tried to ruin their organizations financially. The BSA have never made demands on them. They have said quietly and confidentially that their values and the Scouting values do not match and so membership is pointless. Why would you want to belong to an organization that doesn't believe what you believe? Those in the BSA membership who feel that the BSA is wrong just because they disagree are in blatant self denial. I had a great scoutmaster as I remember him. He was only with our troop my first three years. I knew him since I was 8. he would have been even better if he wasn't an alcoholic. I never knew he had that behavior so it didn't affect me, had I known at the time i don't see how I could possible have followed or respected him. Not because he was a bad person , he wasn't. But because his personal behaviour did not match the values that I learned as a scout and through my family. The parents of the troop did the right thing by removing him. Being alcoholic isn't illegal, whether the cause is genetic or phsychological is irrelevent. There are probably millions of alcholics in the USA and many like my old SM must seem like very nice and talented people. But it is not an acceptable behavior with the majority of the value based families in this country. Homosexuality may be a behavior favored by millions. Many homosexuals probably are considered very nice people. It may be a behavior tolerated by many people but it is still unnacceptable to the majority of faith based families such as though served by scouting. Bob White

Read the Local and National Tour Permits. One area the tour leader signs off is "Have parent's approval been secured?" Bob White

Read the Local and National Tour Permits. One area the tour leader signs off is "Have parent's approval been secured?" Bob White

The Troop Committee Guide, Troop Committee Challenge Training, and the Shared Responsibilities Agreement that is part of the annual charter renewal. Adult Leader approval is the authority of the Unit Committee Chair and either the Charter Organization Representative or the Charter Organization Executive Officer. The other adults have input as far as finding and recommending troop leadership but approval is in the sole authority of those I listed. Just as National BSA can deny membership of any member nation-wide, the local Charter Organization has sole authority to deny membership within the unit. No reasons are required. In addition, knowing that there is a personal conflict already existing between the SM and the ASM candidate it would be counter-produvtive to put either into the position of direct supervision over the other. The rational comprise was correctly offered to the person in question, to become a committee member rather than an ASM.

willysjeep is correct. BW

Yes

I absolutely agree with tjhammer when he said "My point has always been (and I asked this in the specific post I made with my WAG), it really shouldn't matter what any poll results are. That is right on the money. So why he brought up the need for a poll of the membership or fabricated statistics is beyond me. Unlike so many of today's politicians the BSA does not bend and sway to poll results. Over the last 93 years the BSA has changed its methods but not its aims or mission. The membership rules are based on the values and mission of scouting. Even if tj's guesses were low by 70% it wouldn't matter. The BSA operates by the same values it had when we all "chose" to join. It had these same values before we came along and will likely have these same values 100 years from now. I truly believe the BSA would rather risk having fewer members and retain their current values of scouting than compromise its values based on what is politcally fashionable at the moment. Bob White Bob White

Everyone loves to watch a train wrecknobody wants to be on board. BW

One last think honey then you can have the last say (as if you wouldn't) The key is to have communications and cooperation between the pack leaders and the troop leaders but the program is not suggesting that to mean only one pack, and only one troop. The focus of the statement is on the act of communicating. What the transition guidelinewnats leaders to understand is that Webelos Transition doesn't just happen by magic. If you expect Webelos from any pack to consider the troop you serve, then you need to be communicating with the leaders of each of those packs. If you expect the cubs in the pack you serve to go into scouting you need to establish relationships with the available troops in your area. Now I'm willing to make up as long as we agree there will be no kissing. Bob White

Oh but billie, The federal government does not give any direct funding to the traditional divisions of the BSA, and your scenario suggests we have not been inspected, when in fact we were, by the US Supreme Court and by the US Congress, and the Home passed inspection without any required or recommended improvements. And yes, you are absolutely correct our congressional charter to serve youth in local communities does not require us to serve every youth. Any building that was done or additions that were made was done through voluntary donations and voluntary labor, but the homeowners get to choose the architects, and approve the laborers. You don't get to be on the job site just because you want to. But don't expect to get to live in the house and not help support it. Do others in the community help pay our property taxes? yes they do. In fact they pay our mortgage, furnish our home and pay the utilities. And every one of them does it of their own free choice. No one is required to support the house if they don't want to, and none are led to believe that by choosing to support the home they have any authority to make decisions about it. If you do not like the house don't come in. If you visit and don't like it don't stay or think you have a right to stay. But, if you enjoy the company of those who dwell here, if you find common values and shared goals, then make yourself at home, let us get you some iced tea, stay as long as you are welcome. Bob White

Well then dear.... Let me point out one last thing and ask a question. Point) Being a Cub Leader does not qualify you for district nomination any more than being a Troop Leader would. To recieve district nomination you would need to be a district committee level volunteer. If you were both a cub leader and a district committee member you could get an OA nomination but the fact that you were a cub leader would be irrelevent to the nomination. Question) Let's look at this from another vantage point. In your area does the troop try to recruit from any other packs and does the pack visit other troops? If the answer is "no" then the brother-unit accomplishes no more and no less than the feeder-packs do, regardless of how much prettier the name sounds. If the answer is "Yes" then there really is no significant relationaship that requires creating a "special" name. The goal is to cross every Webelos into Boy Scouting. Past performance does not support having exclusive relationships between a troop and a pack to be the answer, even when they share the same chartering organization. Such exclusive relationships tend to promote weaker programs, and dynasty-like leaderships. That being said there are communities where only one pack and one troop exist, but even they tend to suffer the same fate. The difference is there is no other option. Cubs deserve the choice to to go to the troop that fits them the best or the troop with the best program. Brother-unit, feeder-packs, whatever name you give them, gives the implication that that is the only choice when it comes time to cross over. No one troop is going to be the right fit for every scout, so when faced with 'join here or nothing', too many scouts choose nothing. Bob White

tjhammer, Language is a funny thing isn't it. What you call conjecture we call a GOTA (Grabbed Outta Thin Air) or a WAG (Wild A-- Guess). I am dismayed you would even present such baseless information as though it was relevent. Here is an actual survey that was done that you might enjoy, the headline is 3 out of 4 Americans Support the Boy Scouts. In it you will see that 36% surveyed actually thought more of the BSA after hearing of its membership requirements. http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21480 (you may need to copy this and past it in the adress line of your browseer for it to work.) My stand on this issue is not whether the BSA membership policies are is right or wrong, but that the BSA has the sole authority to determine it's membership. I do not volunteer my time to promote or deter any particular sexual preference. I teach leadership and decision making through scout methods, and I respect the rules of any community I choose to be a part of. To paraphrase that great American Groucho Marx 'I refuse to belong to a club that won't have me as a member'. I was once a member or a national organization for 30 minutes, until I found out that African Americans were not allowed membership. I quit on the spot and campaigned loudly against them. The have since changed their rules. But I had the honesty to quit first. I felt that belonging to an organization whose rules I could not accept would be the apex of hypocracy. I felt that continuing as a member in that organization would not reflect the values I learned in scouting. In my opinion it would not have been loyal, it was not obedient and it most certainly was not brave. It would be like sitting in someone elses home while you told them how ugly you thought their house was. Then going and telling your friends who aren't invited in that "Sure I choose to spend all my time there, but I don't like it and I tell them so." The Homeowner has the legal and moral right to say "You don't like my house that's fine...leave. I can choose who I invite to stay." "You don't have to like what I do, but I dont have to let you in." Volunteers (and even professionals) are the guests in the house of scouting. The Home owners are the representatives of the chartered organizations and scout program that form the national executive committee. Bob White