Bob White

twocubdad, I think the executive board of the BSA is capable of determining the rules and policies of scouting, and have done so by saying the members must abide by the values of the Oath and Law. When a group or individual have difficulty understanding what that means, the BSA makes a ruling. Do I think the BSA needs a specific ruling in this case, I think they do. I think they have made it quite clear that they expect and require the members to behave in word and deed (when in public) the values of the Oath and Law. I would hope that such an attitude would extend into a persons private life, but I do not see the BSA invading someones privacy to find out. Bob White

"This girl has returned to her scouting roots because she has seen the error of her ways." That is supported in anyhting that Matua has told us of this situation thus far. We have been told she has returned because she likes scouting and that she is pregnant because she chose to start a family at this time. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"would you ban everyone who has sex outside of marriage?" As with the any member or applicant who made their personal behavior public knowledge, a responsible HI, COR and CC would need to consider their behavior and beliefs as they related to the values and mission of scouting. "But a group serving an area with a large gay community doesn't have the option of considering its values and interests when deciding the membership of an avowed homosexual.' You need to appreciate and accept that the program belongs first to the BSA and secondly to the chartering organizations. The BSA sets the major boundaries. The CO may narrow those boundaries but may not expand beyond them. "It seems to me the problem is that you can neither avow or disavow being nine months pregnant." I do not speak for the BSA but I think I am familiar enough with the program to say that being pregnant is not the issue here. What would be an issue for many chartering organizations, and perhaps at some point for the BSA, is a member or applicants public statements or behavior regarding any actions or beliefs that are not in keeping with the values of the BSA or the values of the Chartering Organization. That is why this is not a male or female issue. I think that the officers of a responsible CO would also look at an applicants ability to make responsible decisions when chossing an ASM. The medical condition of being with child is not the issue. It is the moral decision, and the decision making process itself, which she has voluntarily shared, that could place her membership in jeopardy in my opinion. Bob White

Actually I think it is Sports Elective 20a. but you can find out how to do it in the Archery sports booklet. A simple way is with a stiff wire coat hanger bent into a ring at one end ant bedt parallel to the ground then stick the other end in the ground. you can now place the arrows tip down, through the ring and the arows will stand next to the archer. Hope this helps, Bob White

There is a spray available that puts a tacky surface opn the pad that will keep the bag from slipping. I think I got it through www.campmor.com BW

Now you are getting closer to the point sctldr, The pregnancy is not what the relevant issue here. It is the "avowed" behavior that a chartered organization needs to consider. Since pregnancy is not an issue with the BSA, but as with "avowed" homosexulas or "avowed" athiests, it is the member's public expression or support of their personal values and how they relate to the values of the BSA that must be considered. Our opinions in this matter are irrelevant as well. The responsibility to determine this issue is in the hands of the IH, COR and CC. Since the CO is allowed to be more strict than the BSA is. I believe they will make the right decision, based not on the individual as much as on what is the best way of communicating to the scouts the values of the Chartered Organization and the Scout Oath and Law. Bob White

Excuse me sctldr, are you suggesting that a) The BSA should not have standards. b) The BSA disallow pregnant women C) The BSA ask every pregnant woman who applies for leadership if she became pregnant in a morally approved way. D) no married woman has ever become pregnant outside of marriage. E) how a woman became pregnant is anyone's business if she chooses not to tell. The BSA treats all membership the same. Other than a criminal hidtory check, the BSA does not have the responsibility to investigate the morals of an applaicant or member. They depend on two things 1) that a responsible chartering organization will check references and carefully select leaders and 2) the public behavior of the applicant or member. The BSA has a a specific standard that the member meets the values of the program as represented in the Oath and Law. The BSA views homosexuality as innappropriate to the goals of scouting, they do not view pregnancy as inappropriate. If you were to publicly declare or support homosexuality you risk expulsion by your own admission. If you declare publicly the conditions of your pregnancy and your charter organization does not approve, you risk expulsion due to your own admission. There is no double standard. Now perhaps if you were a member who supported homosexual BSA members but not members approved by the BSA and the charter organization, that could be viewed as a double standard, but the BSA has extended the same stardards to all.

Well we got home about 8:30 from the council JLT course. My son gave it a 9 out of a possible 10 points. On the Plus Side Enthusiastic Junior Staff Very good quality presentations Well Planned Lots of activities Learned some new things Made some new friends Feels he is a better leader for having gone On the Minus Side Some staff dropped out at the last minute and so they did not have enough Patrol Guides and had to do two patrols of 11 boys (my son was in one of them) Back on the Plus Side He now understands and appreciates why patrols are limited to a maximum of 8 boys in his troop. (side bar) A faction of 4 scouts formed within the patrol under the control of one of the scouts other than the elected PL. This caused some conflict in patrol teamwork. This goes to show you that boys naturally gather in small groups, hence the reasonong behind the patrol method and the strong recommendation to restrain patrol size to these natural numbers. 6-8 Scouts will give you the most effective patrol operation and the most successful boy leadership. It's good to have him back home and I'm pumped that he had a good time. Bob White

South Pole Scout, I do not think the gender of the leader matters when determining their fitness as a leader. My experience has been that the vast majority of volunteers responsible for approving leaders look at their character and qualifications and gender is rarely viewed as a factor either pro or con. I am sure there are some that do, but they seem to be in a very small minority. Bob White

I was wondering if this was going to go beyond a question of eligibility to a question of appropriateness. Since I am not the IH, COR, or CC, of the unit I will not judge this specific person or situation. Since she does not violate any National BSA membership policy it would be in the hands of the Charter Org. to determine her appropriateness as a leader. I will caution you on one thing Matua, you sid in response to a parental concern over this leadewrs ability to set a good example that " The younger scouts enjoy her company when we have down time." I can think of a number of criteria I would use in selecting a good role model for a child. This would be a very low priority. I can think of a number of adults that would pass that test who I would not want my son to emulate. If she is doing administrative work why register her as an ASM and not as a committee member, unless of course she is under 21. If she is not old enough to be on the committee than I question her decision making ability. To willfully choose to begin a family as an un-married woman under 21 does not give me confidence in her ability to make sound decisions as a scout leader. I admit that I come to this within my own frame of reference, but then the scouting program is largely responsible for thst set of values that I carry. Bob White

My concern with your post Rooster is that there are people who will read it and say "Ah ha! If the Scouting program had the resources in money and manpower they would finance a witch hunt to ferret out homosexuals." and that is simply not true. It has nothing to with resources or political fallout. If political fallout was a deciding factor they would have folded their principles long ago. It is simply not the mission of scouting to go looking for these individuals. Your words and public behavior either support the values of the program or they do not. The BSA would remove an adult who used vulgar language or promoted vulgarity for the same reason they would remove someone who publicly supported homosexuality. But if you only use that language in the privacy of your home the BSA is not going to try and discover whether or not you swear. The BSA has made this clear in a position statement you can read on the national website. To suggest that the reasons are otherwise, misrepresents the scouting program. Bob White

Well I pick up my son from JLT today. He's been gone since last Saturday. We had 3 scouts from the troop attend. They are there with 61 other scouts from the council. I'm anxious to get his feedback on how he enjoyed it, what new friends he made, what he learned, what his goals are for putting the training to work etc. His course director is a very talented trainer (a female scouter you might be interested to learn) who attended PTC with me last year, and his course Scoutmaster followed me as the SM in the troop I served as Scoutmaster in for several years. I know some of the training staff (all scouts) and they are all very good. So I'm betting it was a good experience. His mom was a stitch at sign-in. As a staffer was trying to take his picture she kept running up to straighten his bolo. She was so busy running in and out of the shot she didn't realize he had already snapped the photo before the first time she ran up. It was very funny. BW

Rooster, I never said the BSA had no interest in knowing. I said the BSA no interest in seeking them out. It is not a function of the program, nor would it enhance the mission. It has nothing to do with the amount of resources that may be needed. Even with the resources the BSA has already said they would not do it. Bob White

You are correct. Now get ready for the other shoe to drop. What caused this situation? If it was lack of parental help the individual will probably enjoy your assistance in lightening his administrative load. If the problem is a personal ego trip then when he gives up being the ASM position he will probably remove your membership from the troop. An act he has the authority to do as the COR and committee chair. Bob White

No, He can be COR, and either a Committee member or Committee Chair. BW

The BSA program does not differentiate between the use of illegal drugs and the misuse of any drug. Neither is acceptable. BW

Good question Hunt. I'm saying that there are other behaviors besides homosexuality that are considered legal by the community that can be considered in opposition to the Oath and Law and that the BSA can, and has, taken the same action in revoking membership as they have with atheists and homosexuals. If you make your personal views and lifestyle more prominent than the values of the Oath and Law, then you interfere with the mission of the program and risk revocation of membership. Bob White

Excuse me packsadlle but you are incorrect regarding scoutings policy on the use of tobacco, drugs and alcohol. Nowhere does the BSA say "The BSA has written policies supporting your claim that "our camp such leaders are explicitly instructed by BSA "to try to keep the boys from seeing it" The BSA says that the use of those products in the view of scouts is prohibited. The G2SS says DON'T do it not "try not to do it". A leader who violates this policy will be eligible for the same revocation of membership as any adult that supports values in opposition to the Oath and Law. The BSA does search out which leaders smoke and which don't. They jusy say don't let the scouts know and don't support it. We even teach anti-smoking, we do not teach hetero, or homosexual behaviour. If a scouter were to publicly support let's say the use of controlled drugs in a public really he would treated no differently than a leader at a rally supporting homosexual lifestyles. Or if a scouter publicly supported the rights of scout leaders to smoke during scouting events and not have to hide their behavior, would be treated the same as a leader who did not want to hide there sexual preference. This entire argument is about supporting behavior that is not deemed in keeping with the values of the Oath and Law, and spreads far beyond sexuality and religion. If you do not support values that the Oath and Law represent you cannot be expected to be an effective, functioning, leader. Bob White

Since shae is not in violation of any BSA membership requirement she only requires the approval of the Committee Chair and either the COR or IH to be an adult member of the troop. Other adults are welcome to have an opinion as long as they realize they have no authority in the matter. Bob White

Thanks DS you are correct of course. Yes Matua, since the IH is not a registered member of the BSA, he or she can hold any registered position in the Unit. Think of it like a church choir. The Minister (IH) can sing in the choir and still be a minister. They can even lead the choir and still be a minister. The choir director (COR) can head or serve on the choir committee and remain the director. But a member of the choir (SM) can only sing one part at a time. Bob White

Padre, I am very sorry to read of the conflict in your family. I am not prepared to say that the problem is your wife's having only read what you have to say so far. And I am not saying the problem is yours. I am saying that the problem is not scouting. There is no element of this program designed to keep secrets, or be scary, or to not be fun, or to divide couples. I wish you and your wife luck in finding the real cause of strife in your marriage, and I hope you can all be able to share the fun and the values of the scouting program as a family. Bob White

The Scoutmaster is not allowed to charter in any other position within the same unit other than SM. The same holds true with all registered adult positions within the troop with the exception of the Chartered Organization Representative who is allowed to dual register as a Committee Member. You can find this information in the rechartering instrauctions available through your local Council service center. Ask to speak to the Registrar. Bob White

Packsaddle, How is the treatment of homosexuality any different from the BSA treatment of drugs, alcohol or even smoking. All four behaviours are seen as contrary to the values of the Oath and Law. None of these behaviors are to be supported as positive behavior when dealing with scouts. A Leader who supports a lifestyle of alcohol use or smoking (even if they themselves do not participate) can and should be removed from the program. Can they do it in private, that is a personal decision, as long as the behavior is not supported to the scouts. The BSa has no intention of controling your behavior, they can't. They can control what behavior the scouts can be exposed to and what values are supported as positive and what values are not to be presented in any form. Rooster, The fact that the BSA does not seek out to determine if a member is athiest or homosexual or a drinker etc. has nothing to do with manpower or resources. The BSA does not do it because they have no interest in doing it. It would serve no purpose in the program to do so. If an indiviodual should show through public word or action that they reject the values that they agreed to support, they have in effect resigned from the program, they have just forgotten to leave. You cannot live a public life that does not reflect scouting values and expect to be able to support the BSA values as a leader without cofusing the scouts and detracting from the program. Bob White

Webelos Leader Outdoor Training IS NOT replaced by the new Introduction to Outdoor Skills course. Although they share a few common elements the WELOT program gives specific instructions on ways to present the outdoor Webelos Skill Award topics like, geologist, naturalist, readyman and others. Here is what happened. When the new Cub Training came out we were told by National that a new WELOT program was coming as well. The current program syllabus was in the same book as the Cubleader training program. When those books were tosed as the new ones came in the WELOT syllabus went with. THEN the new WELOT never got released. It is being designed to interlace with Intro to Outdoor Skills and there were some problems in the test program. It still has not been released. Many councils were then caught with a program that Webelos leaders are required to take before taking their den camping, but few councils have a working syllabus. So as a bandage they have told the Webelos leaders to go to Intro to Outdoor Skills. Not a good substitute. This may not help the situation but maybe you will now understand what has happened. Bob White

What you are refering to in your troop Ryan is not the same thing we are refering to. Your SM does Troop Junior Leader Training Conference. We are talking about the Council's week-long Junior Leader Training. They are completely different in content. Check with your SM you may still have time to register for this summer. My Son is attending ours this week. Bob White