Bob White

fotoscout, Why do you think the G@SS has program based restrictions? What is keeping your district or council from running more events than it does now, presuming that they are not running enough to meet the needs of the local scouting community? Our local District runs 3 week-long day camps, 3 resident camp weekends, An overnight winter-fest, an overnight at a zoo. Our council runs 2 family camp weekends, an overnight at a ball park following the game, an overnight at a hockey rink following the game. And those are just some of the cub activities there is the Pinewood derby, and other basic Cub activities run by the District. Now you add all the Boy Scout and Venture activities and your stretching your staffing resources pretty thin. I am not denying that some Districts could do more. But that is a local situation, and will vary from District to District based on strength of the local program, enthusiasm and abilities of the volunteers, workforce resources, local physical resources. I don't see it as a national problem, and membership in Cubs certainly does not show there is a problem. Bob White

My understanding is that only members and guests who are eligibe to become members are covered by the BSA's accident insurance. BW

So foto are you saying that adult leaders (most of whom understand the purpose of the complete uniform) who don't wear one, would if another adult told them to? Bob White

The heavy cotton shirt and pants are still available in todays uniform style. The slacks are cut like dress pants. The comparison to the old first aid techniques was just a reminder that things usually change for the better we just glamorize the old ways in our memories. I was a Boy Scout in 1967 and todays uniform is far more comfortable and sharper looking than the button down pants pockets, knee socks with garter belts and tabs, and overseas hat. (Actually I kinda liked the overseas hat!) I still have some of my old shirts and todays shirts are built better. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hops You want the quality to improve but the cost to go down? It's a nice thought Hops but that's not the way the world works. Better quality materials come at a higher cost. You can't lower prices if your costs are going up. I'd like to buy a better home this year than I did 20 years ago for less money. What would you say my chances are. Heck I'd like to by a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread for less than I did last year. What do you think my chances are. Did you know the BSA uniform is American made. We could lower prices tremendously if we had it manufactured in China. were you aware of the quality guarrantee. You should ask your local service center what it covers, you might be surprised. Of course we could do away with the guarantee and lower the price a little. Keep in mind that the purpose of the uniform is to teach specific lessons not to force compliance. There is no skill involved in telling someone what to do. Bob White

One question, and some historical perspective. What do you see is the hurdle that keeps (or will keep) Dens and Packs from delivering a scouting program that is exciting an interesting to cubs at the various age breakouts? (Remebering that District and Councils are made up of the same volunteers that make up dens, packs, troops and crews.) Historical perspective..Scouting has continually responded to the changing characteristics of youth. for the first 20 years there was no program for under 12 year olds. Then Cub scouting began at age 8 at went to 12. The next change was Boy Scouting starting at age 11. Then age 10 1/2, followed by cubbing reducing the entrance to age 7. and finally Venturing going to age 21. In addition there have been numerous changes in the advancement requirements as the needs and characteristics of youth have changed over the generations. Currently every Merit Badge is going through a re-write to bring their information up to current technologies. Besides that, the methods of scout leadership have advanced over the years to take advantage of new techniques based on a variety of studies in the areas of group dynamics, management, psychology and more. So when Wallace offers that we change the age requirements I say "fine, but based on what"?Let's do it based on sound studies and proven methodology, not just because someone else does it differently. Bob White

Saltheart, WHAT??? The state did not condemn Scouting or the BSA. They said that a judge must make known their membership in any organization that might have an effect on his/her decision in a trial. That means if there is a business leader on trial and the judge is a member of Rotary. It is no different. Why did you not see this ruling as the state of California condemning Rotary? Packsaddle, Yes, the same rule that would restrict an avowed homosexual male from scouting would restrict an avowed homosexual women from scouting. This is not an issue of the scouts being in danger. This is about behavior and values in keeping with the Oath and Law. Bob White

Since when does little leaugue set their rules by the Boy Scouts of America or vice-versa. (by the way the little league rules also state that the teams will provide the uniforms for the players and that the uniforms remain the property of the league, If your unit bought the uniforms for every scout perhaps they would wear them?) The question was about the BSA making uniforms mandatory. Since choosing to wear the uniform is part of the lesson that is being taught you can expect that it will never be mandatory. Through the use of the uniform we are trying to teach the scouts to; set the example, develop a sense of belonging to a community, develop self esteem, take pride in personal appearance, do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, make good decisions. The purpose of the uniform is not so that the "group" looks good. It is to help each individual grow and develop. Scout leaders need to use leadership skills that extend beyond "do what I tell you to do or you will be punished". If scouts do what you want only because you tell them to, then your sphere of influence is only as far as your eye sight. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

No other method of scouting is mandatory. it is a volunteer program and I do not expect that to change. I don't know if it is can't or won't. I see it more as shouldn't and won't. We could not teach the same lessons if it were a rule. Do you only drive safely because of the laws that govern driving or do you drive safely to protect yourself and others? Bob white

Because scouting owns the image of scouting (the uniform) but the charter organization owns the unit. If a unit wants a policy that to be a member you must wear a full uniform that's fine. But the BSA cannot force a unit member to wear the uniform, only to use the image properly. Because the unit owns the image, the BSA cannot make a volunteer get trained, they must choose to. They cannot make a scout wear a uniform, they must choose to. They cannot make you sell popcorn, hold an FOS presentation, hold 4 Courts of Honor a year, Do a good turn, have patrols. They can control your indurance benefits, membership (to a degree), your charter, use of the scouting name and image, and advancement. Everything else is left to the CO and volunteer to do the responsible thing. When we registered we each agreed to follow the program. The BSA trusts us to what we said we would do. The integrity of the program continues to depend on the integrity of our leaders. The reason your council can require you to wear a complete uniform to WB is that it is a voluntary course to take. That is true of any council District or National event. WB is not the only place that correct uniforming is required. Since it is outside of the Charter organization program they can require whatever they want. You don't have to go if you don't want to participate according to the preset rules. Bob White

"I find things too defined around all things scouting" Here's where I am confused Padre. When you became involved in scouting did anyone explain that it was a program and not an activity? It is fun with a purpose. In order to achieve that purpose on a national basis it needs a structure, a roadmap. it is not so rigid that it cannot adapt to individual needs. Your example of making Eagle when you have completed it and not by age is a good example, yet within that example lies the rule that you must be a Boy Scout and not a Cub to earn it. It's like driving. Everyone has the same destintion, they can take whatever style vehicle they want but there are still rules and structure that must be obeyed in order to get everyone there safely. It you drive where ever you want, it is unlikely you will arrive at your destination. Good driving requires an understanding of the rules, an ability to read the map, and practice. So does good scouting. Bob White

I think you raise some real valid points foto with one exception. I believe from my experience that most parents, and scouts for that matter, do not understand the uniform as a method of teaching character and citizenship. They see it only as an awards display. How are they supposed to know any difference unless someone teaches them. Who is responsible for that? The unit leader. If the unit leader is not trained, and if they don't wear the full uniform, neither will others in the unit. I agree completely that there is a direct relationship between uniforming and attendance, advancement, behavior, personal growth, and effective leadership. We see it all the time as leaders. Bob White

Rooster, I agree completely that the actions of the older scouts affect the actions of the others. Where I see things differently is why the older scoutsdo not wear the uniform. It is not because the scouts are lazy (I have never met a lazy teenager, just uninspired ones), It is not because they are too busy (they don't show up for football out of uniform because they are too busy), They don't require a Scoutmaster to demand it of them (no where in scouting is that required or suggested behavirfor a SM) The problem is they were not trained to be leaders, which happens to be the #1 responsibility of the Scoutmaster. If a unit lacks leadership it is from a lack of leadership development. Training takes time and a SM who busies themselves by always being "in charge" will never have the time or the inclination to teach boys to lead themselves. Setting the example is a leadership skill and must be taught and developed as with any skill. Bob White

DS is right of course it is more of an agreement. Promise was my term. I injected a personal outlook into it. When I sign my name to something I look at it as pledging my word to uphold my part of the agreement, I promised. BW

It seems the first required one earned is usually First Aid or Swimming. The last is often Citz. in the World, Personal Management, Family Life, or Communications. Bob White

Honestly I think the problem is two fold. First most adult leaders do not understand the purpose and use of the uniform. The second problem is good uniforming is not practiced by Cub Scout units and so by the time they reach the troop program they think the uniform is only a shirt and belt. That leaves the troop trying to break a nearly 4 year habit. The problem is not the pants, thousands and thousands of adults wear the full uniform. The problem is sufficient motivation brought about by an acceptance of the purpose of a full uniform. If more leaders understood the methods of scouting more scouts and leaders would wwear a complete uniform. Bob White

I am always amused by the number of leaders who do not set the example by wearing a full, uniform when they complain about the fit. When I ask them when did they last wear a pair of uniform pants, answer "oh, I've never worn them". Bob White

How many of you that are Patrol Leaders and senior patrol leaders are responsible for camp set-up, or do the adults tell you or the troop members haow to arrange the sight? by patrols, by troop? (since there aren't too many Jr. leaders on this board you adults can answer and tell us who decides camp layout.) Next question. Do you set up in columns and rows or do you set up according to weather and geography? What you you do differently if you could? Bob White

Soory about the typo I was heading out the door. The statement should have read... But as voulunteer we are not charged with changing the program, our responsibility is to honor the promise we made when we joined, to deliver the BSA program and abide by the poilicies and methods that define it. Thanks Bob W.

The National Summertime Pack Award is based on Pack activities. The recognition includes a ribbonfor the dens aand pins for the eligible Cubs. You activities sound terrific. Be sure you file your BSA flying permit at least two weeks in advance of the flight. Have a fun summer, Bob White

But, this is not something we are interested in preventing. At least most of us aren't. BW

Of course we do not expect to give leaders a college degree over a weekend. As you can image leaders need to be able to be functioning leaders as quickly as possible to be effective. For that reson they are given the results of over 90 years of studying child development. The scouting program has been and continues to be developed by experts from across the country. When you wanted to know more about your major you took classes. We ask the leaders to take lessons to understand the real methods of the program. (and yes we do test at the end of some of our courses) Have you considered that without having taken the training you are judging what is wrong with the program before you have taken time to learn what the real program and methodolgy are all about. It is fine to question the program. If you feel you have knowledge or experience that would improve the program I urge you to share that with the national office that develops and diseminates the BSA program. But as voulunteer we are to charged with changing the program our responsibility is to honor the promise we made when we joined to deliver the BSA program and abide by the poilicies and methods that define it. Imagine the chaos of trying to operate a "national" program with a over a million volunteers each running there own version. And by the way we don't hand a boy a tool and expect him to use it We require that he be trained first so that he understands how the tool actually operates and how to use it safely. Before we send them out to be men we train them for 11 to 14 years. All we ask of leaders is to give us a few hours of their time to learn what the real program is before they go out to use it. That seems reasonable a reasonable request, doesn't it? Bob White

Many years ago those heavy cotton uniforms had steel buttons held on with cotter rings that had to be removed and replaced every time it was laundered. We also treated burns with butter, misused tourniquets, and performed artificial rescucitation (push on the back and pullup on the elbows) on water rescue victims. Camping materials were mostly metal, canvas and cotton. There were heavy, absorbed water, rotted and smelled bad. It would take a 7lb sleeping bag to give the warmth of a 3lb bag today. What we used to do makes for interesting history but poor scouting for todays youth. Trying to drive forward while looking in the rearview mirror will get you nowhere but into accidents. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

sorry it dual posted bw(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Lets be careful about thinking the past was better. All too often our memories act as a filter that magnifies those images we prefer to recall. Back when uniforms were heavy cotton, the buttons were steel and held on with cotter rings. Before you could launder the shirt you had to remove all the buttons then put them back on after you ironed. You also treated burns with butter (a very bad idea) and used artificial resuscitation (pushed on the back and pulled up on elbows) for water rescue (another bad idea). Most things improve with time, except for memory. I think the beret lokks very sharp on a military uniform. I think perhaps the BSA felyt it was too military looking with the BSA uniform (it was also a very hot hat to wear) when the sun was shining and absorbed humidity like a sponge. As with the campaign style hat it is being worn by fewer and fewer members. There becomes a point when it is simply not financially feasibly to produce or warehouse. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)