Bob White

Oxcops All scout units in the traditional programs which include Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturing, are offered to the youth in a community through local organizations and businesses in accordance with the Congessional Carter of the BSA. This is done through an annual Chartered Agreement which is signed by the IH of the Charter Institution and a representative of the local BSA Council. Every IH has the responsibility of assigning a Charter Organization Repesentative who selects and approves a Committee Chair. Together they select and approve all committee members and adult leadership. This is true at all program levels. Through a progression of developmental stages youth participants mosve from a program planned by adults to one one planned by youth. However the Unit Committee of adult volunteers never cease responsible for selection and approval of all adult leaders. In Venturing, the program belongs jointly to the Charter Organization and the BSA, the youth crew members have the responsibility to plan their program under the guidance of an Advisor and at least one associate Advisor (as referenced in the Venturing Leaders handbook). It is flattering that the crew mwmbers want you as their leader but that is a decision and responsibility of the adulkt committee ASM514 Please reference any section of any leaders handbook or training syllabus that says anything different. 32 years in scouting? Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful, Clean, any of these sound familiar? Bob White

Name calling? That is trule uneeded. A simple I'm sorry I was wrong would have been fine. ASM514 you say you know the Handbook, I simply asked for the correct reference. The one you offered does not exist. Nor does any reference in scouting give the task of finding adult leaders to the youth members as you stated it did. You began this by saying I was dead wrong and yet you have not given a lick of evidence to back up your rudeness. You corporation may be a CO but you sir are not. You would be the IH. The IH is a person the CO is not. When you say lets talk real time instead of book time. What does that mean? If you are suggesting we match experience, you will have to trust me that is not a road you want to travel. Bob White

Since you admit you and your son were incorrect about the current flag code, then does that not make him incorrect for altering the uniform of the US Military? In searching the uniform codes of the various services on the internet it seems that each branch has a protocol for their members to follow if they wish to seek a change in the uniform. As a scout and as a member of the military shouldn't your son have been obedient and followed the rules while he took what he felt were the proper steps to change them? Or do the rules he agreed to follow not pertain to him? Bob White

I like many of the points brought up but as Cub Scout advancement requirements not as Merit Badges. Keep in mind that the main purpose of the merit badge program is to introduce scouts to areas of interest that could become a career or life long hobby. I feel if you haven't been taught good manners and social etiquette before you are 11 years old it's probably too late. Sewing used to be a Wolf requirement. I know because it was the first skill my Den Mother (my mom) taught all of us. With 5 people in the house in scouting there was no way she was going to do all the rank, temporary activity badges, etc. herself. I have done all me own sewing since I was 8 years old. The same with laundry. My son started learning to do laundry in first grade. It should be or maybe is a cub requirement. Peer Mediation as a hobby? HMMMM, sorry don't see that catching on . Sorry DS (as they say in the TV ads 'I luv ya man")but I dont see enough scouts choosing a tailoring MB to justify the expense of making the badge. As far as martial arts, unless karate comes off the prohibited activities list you will not see a karate MB. Judo however is approved for the Sports MB. I would offer Caving as a new MB. my 2 cents, Bob White

Yes, if we both show up in our respective uniforms we are both properly uniformed, but that does not make our uniforms the same. A Female leader in the Yellow blouse is not in the same basic uniform as a male cub leader in the the field uniform yet both are correctly uniformed. A Scoutmaster in the Boy Scout activity uniform is correctly dressed as a scout leader but does not look anything like a cubmaster in the correct uniform. Yes, in Cub Scouts you have the option as to whether or not you wear a neckerchief, bolo or no neckwear, but you do not have the open option of which neckerchief you can wear like you do in Boy Scouts. The Cubmaster now wears the Wolf Cub hat if they choose to wear a hat. There is a Cub Leader neckerchief as well that is worn by the Cubmaster if they wear a neckerchief, just as there is a specific Tiger Cub Leader neckerchief. The den leaders wear the neckerchief or hat of the den they serve or the Cub Leader neckerchief. Boy Scouts and Boy Scout leaders have a wider variety of hats and can wear any neckerchief except those of the Cub Scout program. Bob White

Before we start the serious hair splitting, is it not a basic principle that all adult leader uniforms are essentially the same? No. The basic shirt is the same in the Boy Scout and Cub Scout program but not in Venturing and not if you are a female cub leader in a yellow blouse. Everything else is dependent on the program you serve, the level you serve at, and your position of responsibility. Aren't hats and neckerchiefs supposed to be a personal choice? Not in Cub Scouts. See the Insignia Guide for more information. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Zahnada If that was not the post you were refering to I apologize. I'd be very interested in viewing the post you meant. Bob White

How about giving them a packing list of seemingly unrelated items that a camper would have with them and then situations they must problem solve using only the items brought with them. For instance with a personal sewing kit and a walking stick they should be able to fashion fishing pole and discover some natural bait. (catching a fish could be bonus points.) Did they think of using their mirror to send a message for help or did they fashion semaphore flags with their bandanas? Can they start a fire and boil a cup of water or cook a utensiless meal with what they brought? Can they repair a torn poncho or fashion a new one? Can they find a way to transport across a narrow ravine? Can they build a small animal trap? Can they start a fire without matches? Build a shelter from their surroundings? Just a few things to challenge them. Bob White

But consider this Ed, he is only a leader to those who elected him. The scouts from another patrol have no investment in following his lead. This PL may be the best person for the job in his own group, but perhaps due to personaliy conflicts, skill levels, friendships etc., he would never have been chosen for that role if he were a member of this other group. For the leadership dynamics of the Patrol Method to work the boys must have the empowerment to select their own leadership, otherwise you set this boy up for failure. Bob White

The hat you describe is still sold Marty. It is the Wolf hat and comes in an adult size. it has a red wolf badge on a yellow crown, with a blue brim. Bob White

Learning for Life has a very similar Youth Protection program to the traditional programs of the BSA. Learn more at this site. http://www.learning-for-life.org/lfl/index.html Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The reason boy leadership works is that the boys have chosen the leader. To take an elected leader from one patrol and make him the PL of another is courting disaster. If you must do a provisional Patrol I highly reccomend you let the scouts have a new election to choose their own leader for that event. If the Govenor of Iowa can't make a meeting you don't send the governer of Missouri to fill in for him. Bob White

Zahnada, I do not appreciate being misrepresented in your post, especially when you do not produce any actual evidence. I have not asked for anyone to defend my response to ASM514's post. It offended me personally and I shared that. Others have tried to give him the opportunity to clarify what he meant and he has made his feeling quite clear. As far as my equally strong response on The quality of Trail's End I disagree and have attached the link to support that point of view. In fact, your response to me was quite harsh until you realized I was not responding to your post and so you apologized and said that it was in fact you who had done what you accused me of, not me. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=25985#id_26298 So please if you are going to include me in your posts try to be a little more honest and a lot more accurate. I was not rude to ASM514 I simply did not give him a free pass on what I saw as a demeaning comment toward our country and our military, as well as errant knowledge of flag etiquette. Bob White

ASM514 > There is no pole orientation on a uniform. > Many us have family in the military > They chose their profession and knew the risks, and although I am concerned and even frightened at times for their safety they are proud of who they are and who their Commander-in-Chief is. > I am convinced by your first response to me that your original comment was meant in the derogatory way I understood it. And though your son is risking his life to allow you that freedom, I find it distasteful and certainly unfitting of a scout leader. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ASM514, I'm glad you can recite the manual, I find it hard to believe, but I'm happy for you. Then you already know that nowhere does the BSA give the responsibility or authority of adult selection to the youth members in any program. In fact if you recall page 18 'Volunteer Leadership Position Descriptions of Adult Leaders' sub-heading Chartered Organization the second bullet reads (shall we recite it together?) "Recruits adult advisors and committee members". Then on the same page under the sub-heading "Charter Organization Representative" it says "His or her primary job is to recuit the crew committee and help it to recruit an Advisor and associate Advisors." On Page 19, in a continuation of the sub-heading "Crew Committee" in the second paragraph..."The crew committee sees to it that the crew has an Advisor and at least one associate Advisor at all times. If a vacancy occurs a crew committee member becomes the temporary Advisor. The committee takes immediate steps to recruit the right person to fill the vacancy." If there is any reference to the youth selecting adult leadership I missed it in the Handbook and in the training syllabus. Please refresh my memory, where exactly did you get your information. The Venture Leaders Manual you recommend that I read does not exist. Venture is a patrol in a troop. The BSA does publish a Venturing Leaders Handbook but the the Crew Rules you suggest I read does not exist in that handbook. There is a section on Crew Code and Bylaws, but it says nothing of crew members selecting adult leadership. Since you have it memorized, pointing to the reference should be know problem. (by the way I find it much easier to not memorize the Handbooks but to just look it up as I need the information, that way I minimize making unfounded statements.) Last question, how does one get to be a CO (Charter Organization)? I know individuals who are Institutional Heads (IH), Charter Organization representatives (COR), and Committee Chairs (CC). But how is a person a CO? Bob White

ASM514 You need to read the Venturing Leaders Handbook. Bob White

You are incorrect about the the correct display of the flag on a uniform, and I take offense to your comment. It certainly is not showing a scouts duty to country nor is it loyal or courteous. You owe an apology to the people who defend this nation with thier lives so that you can make innane comments like that. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Foto, unless the cope course director has foloowed every safety rule and operated that course correctly and all the gear was in approved condition that hold harmless form is worthless. You can have all the paperwork signed you want but if you are careless in the execution of the activity then that paper is worthless. If you do everything right the paperwork is unnecessary. How could we set a rule that a boy scout must be able to swim but not a cub scout? Where is the sense in that? especially in a vessel as unstable as a canoe? There are plenty of other adventures you can give a cub scout and stay within the the rules. By the way you are correct that finding lifeguards for every non-swimmer is impractical. It exists not because the BSA does not want yopu to canoe, but because they don't want you to canoe with non-swimmers. So if you want to take a non-swimmer out into the water on a boat that can easily capsize then you put a lifeguard right there with him because he is gonna need one. It a matter of Be Prepared. Wanting to do things that are just beyond their capabilities is a common trait of growing boys. That doesn't mean as leaders we give in to it. There are plenty of adventures available to cubs, except for some that as responsible leaders we are required to control or avoid. Focus on the ones we can do. Bob White

Tell no one but the scout executive and the local authorities. But you must report this. I am surprised that as a peace officer you have not recieved training in this area. I am hopeful that as a scouting volunteer you have taken Youth protection in the last three years. Either way you should know the importance of confidentiality and your responsibility to report you suspicions to the proper authorities. You MUST tell the Scout Executive of this. Forget whether the age of consent is 16 she is still a youth at a scout camp. Report it! Bob White

I strongly advise you contact your Council executive and the local law enforcement and report a suspicion of child sexual abuse. Let the authorities determine if a law has been broken an if prosecution is in order. Let the BSA look into a likely violation of the Youth Protection Policies and take the proper actions. Depending on the state you live in, failure to report this situation could result in criminal and civil charges against you. Bob White

That's right Willy, Read your previous post again. You name liability as the reason parents are overprotective of their kids. It's not. Liability is the reason that organizations and businesses are overprotective of the risk they expose the scouts to. Protectiveness takes place before the injury, liability comes after the injury. As a parent I can tell you that the times I get protective is when I do not see that my child is fully prepared for the activity or that I feel that the activity leader not is skilled or capable for the task. It has nothing to do with liability. Protectiveness is a parenting instinct. Bob white

And there is my point fotoscout.You say on one hand that your Den of cub scouts is ready for this activity and then you say they cannot swim 100 yards. What makes you think they are ready for this activity? The mere fact that they want to do it does not mean they are ready. The fact that you want to do it with them does ot make them ready. The BSA has 92 years of experience with over 100 million youth members. They know where and how the major injuries are most likely to happen and have built safeguards around those areas. Water is the #1 safety hazard in scouting. Because of that it has the most safety requirements. Certainly expecting a boater to swim is not an outrageous one. Ask any lawyer and I think you will find that the best use of a "hold harmless" agreement is as tinder in your fireplace. The BSA takes a different approach. If you take a non-swimming scout out without following the bold print in the G2SS the and some one gets hurt the BSA says "I told you so" and will separate themselves from the legal defense of any criminal or civil charges that arise from your actions. So If you feel that strongly that the BSA rules are too stringent, ignore them. Place no value in their experience or studies. Be willing to sacrifice your personal income, and assets to defend yourself in court, pay damages and perhaps even face criminal charges in order to put a cub scout who can't swim in a canoe. Do I think that there ar a lot of irresponsible leaders out there. Let me put it this way. There are 1.5 million adult volunteers in scouting. If 99% percent of them follow the rules then there are FIFTEEN THOUSAND leaders who don't. Yes, I think there are probably a lot of irresponsible leaders out there and the scouts need these safety guidelines established and supported in order to keep them safe. I hope after giving this your consideration you will see that giving cubs controlled opportunities, until their training and capabilities have caught up to their enthusiasm, is a safer and better alternative to accept and endorse as a leader. Bob White

The reason boating is restricted to District/Council events is to insure that the required resources are available (lifeguards, lookouts, safety afloat trained supervisor, approved equipment, approved boating area) have you offered your activity idea to the District activity committee yet? I'm not sure why you ruled out rowboats. They are allowed and only require that an adult swimmer be in the boat with a non-swimmer, where canoes and rafts require a certified lifeguard in each boat with a non-swimmer. By the way have all of your cubs in the den passed the BSA 100yd swim test? But this activity is not prohibited it is just controlled for the protection of the scouts. Not necessarily because the scout isn't capable of doing the activity but because of the responsible, experienced, and trained adult supervision required to do the activity safely. Bob White

But fotoscout, Where do the program rules say you cannot take cub scouts rowing or canoeing? The activity matrix is a suggested list of activities appropriate for those age groups. You are not restricted to those activities or from those activities. The Guide to Safe Scouting is the governing tool as to what you can or cannot do within a program, and the Guide says that within specific safety considerations you can take Cubs canoeing and rowing. I guess what Im trying to tell you is you are only limited by those activities prohibited by the BSA. Otherwise you are open to do any activity that the scouts are physically capable of, where adequate training has taken place, the proper safety equipment is used and sufficient adult leadership is provided. But certainly you can understand why scouting, and for that matter any responsible parent, is not going to allow a unit to do anything they want with other peoples kids unless reasonable safety practices are observed. So what activity is there you want to do that you think is appropriate for cubs that the BSA says you cannot do? (remembering that you can go rowing and canoeing) Bob White

Ozemu The objectives for each of the 11 leadership skills is in the recently retired Wood Badge syllabus, which was replaced by the Wood Badge for the 21st Century. Besides the individual skill objectives there are excercises that allow the participant to practice the various skils and to discover their inter-relationships. Seldom is only one skill in use at a time. Leadership is explained as a scale that must be kept in balance. On one side is "Getting the Job Done" on the other side is "Keeping the Group Together" Through the proper integration of the 11 skills a good leader accomplishes both. Hope this helps. Bob White