Bob White

And I dont disagree with anyhting you wrote up to the last sentence. you are not teaching them a lesson you are using a leadership style called "directing" it is one of the four leadership styles taught in the scouting program. It requires a leader to evaluate a situation and adopt the leadership style that is the most apprpropriate at the moment. It is leadership skill and requires no knowledge of leadership on behalf of the follower. This has been my point from the beginning. To lead you must learn and practice specific skills that do not get learned in a non-leadership activity. If you rely on your junior leaders to learn through osmosis, it's not gonna happen. What was the original topic of this string again? Bob White

Zahnada, Questioning says that over his 54 years of experience that he has seen the values of scouting change. I'm saying "prove it". The values of scouting are in the scout handbook and have been for 92 years. Show me the book where the values changed. Questioning says that there used to be acceptance of all members, but he also said he has hid his homosexuality all these years. WHY? If there was ever a time when the BSA would have approved membership of an avowed homosexual then why didn't he step out of his self-imposed closet. If he wants to see "more Gregs" step forward publicly then why doesn't he? This topic is filled with people in opposition to scoutings values telling us that the BSA values have changed and yet most have little or no actual knowledge of the Boy Scouts of America other than what their political action groups tell them to say. I'm asking one simple direct question. If the values we teach have changed over our 92 years then prove it. Site one value in any Handbook where we have altered the moral compass. Show me one passage we teach our scouts where they are taught intolerance to homosexuals. Show me a single line in any Scout Handbook where we say you can be a member of the scouting program no matter what your public behavior is. Show me where it says you do not have to accept the values of the Oath and Law in order to be a member. If we have changed our values then give me the year it changed and show me the handbook when it happened. Put some cards on the table or walk away. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"A good adult Scout leader must be a good adult Scout follower 1st." If by that you mean they must follow the scouting program, then I believe we are in violent agreement on that point. A good scout leader follows the scouting program. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

1. It takes a minimum of 5 boys and 4 adults (more is always better) 2. It takes effort on everyones part but anything worthwhile always does. the important hing to re,member is you are never alone, there are several district volunteers and professionals available to help you succeed. 3. Check with your local BSA professionals. Usually Lone Scouting is not an option in an area where troop scouting is readily available. Scouting is more fun and you learn faster in a group. Bob White

You are against a Scoutmaster sending a scout to his parents or guardian for guidance? In what possible capacity have you been involved in scouting for 54 years? When if ever did you attend Scout Leader Training? What scouting resource did you ever read in 54 years that made the Scoutmaster an appropriate resource for discussing sexual orientation with a minor? You said the program changed it's values and how we teach them, please show me one single piece of evidence from 92 years of program. Site one physical resource that I can look at to see that this is anything other than your personal opinion or hearsay. A handbook, a training syllabus, one concrete example I can touch. Do not give me a quote from an individual. There have been over 130,000,000 members of the BSA There is bound to be some who misrepresent the program. Show me where the BSA has ever waivered in their values. Bob White

You got that backwards Ed. It is your argument that a good leader must first be a good follower. So by your logic a Good Scout Leader would first have to have been a good Scout. I'm saying that being a good Scout leader is unrelated to what kind of a scout you were. Being a good leader, scoutleader or otherwise, is an entirely different set of skills. How did I learn leadership skills? The same as every competent leader I have ever known. I was taught by others in the skills of leadership, and then practiced through practical application in leadership roles. Certainly not by any experience as a follower. Is some of this knowledge recorded in books? Well sure, but isn't that what books are for? Am I less of a leader for reading them and applying the lessons in my life. I would think that's the purpose of learning. Whether good followers or bad, neither become good leaders without leadership skills. If you are waiting for them to learn those as followers you not only have a long wait but you are missing the first responsibility of being a scoutmaster, to train junior leaders in leadership skills. Bob White

Still waiting Questioning. I asked that you site specific evidence that the values of scouting have changed. I asked that you reference a Boy Scout handbook of the past and todays Boy Scout handbook and show us where the BSA has altered the values we teach scouts today. As an example of how this works I'll go first using your own examples. BSA Handbook for Boys, Copyright 1948 Trustworthy A Scouts honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate his honor by telling a lie, or by cheating, or by not doing exactly a specific task, when trusted on his honor, he may be directed to hand over his Scout Badge. The Boy Scout Handbook, Copyright 1998 Trustworthy A scout tells the truth, He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him. A reputation for being trustworthy is important to you know and in the years to come.... Now tell me what that has to do with a scoutmaster having a discussion of a sexual topic with someone elses child? Because I don't see that supported here. Wait a minute!! Here it is page 500 of the Scoutmaster's Handbook. It says that a scoutmaster should not undertake to teach scouts sexual behavior in a formalized manner, that scouts should learn about sex from their parents, spiritual leader or physician, that a SM should answer direct questions honestly but stay within their knowledge and comfort, and to direct the scout to his parents, spritual leader or physician as is appropriate. Oops, my mistake!! that was from the 1959 Scoutmaster's Handbook. The current SM handbook says on page 132 that a scoutmaster should not undertake to teach scouts sexual behavior in a formalized manner, that scouts should learn about sex from their parents, spiritual leader or physician, that a SM should answer direct questions honestly but stay within their knowledge and comfort, and to direct the scout to his parents, guardians, spritual leader, or physician as is appropriate. Wait a minute! That's the same thing! Nothing on that topic has changed in 43 years??? Okay Questioning your turn. I hope you have better luck than I did. Show me between two scout handbooks over the last 92 years where the program has changed. By the way I would steer clear of "A Scout is Clean" it will not help your argument. Your friend in scouting, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Baden-Powell, in all likelihood learned great things by following his teachers." For that to happen he would have had to go to class. Something B_P had a great aversion to. The result of his constant truancy was his expulsion from a number of private schools. He was mostly self-taught. Any way you slice it patrol members are followers. That is a military attitude and not the philosophy of the patrol method which is built on participating citizenship not I order/you follow. That's why we teach leadership skills. Bob White

Mark, Because, you said that "The opinion seems to be that all the gays in scouting should stay in the closet and it is not an opinion. It is the POLICY of the BSA. It is a constitutional right supported by the U.S. Supreme Court. Opinion has nothing to do with it. It wouldn't matter if the opinion of every member of this board was in favor of homosexual members because the opinion of this board is irrelevant to the policies of the BSA. The policy says that an avowed homosexual may not hold membership. It goes on to say that a member who publicly supports homosexuality (even if they themselves are not homosexual) can be removed from membership. Membership is reserved for those who publicly live by and support the mission of the BSA and the values of the Scout Oath and LAW. I hope that is more clear, Bob White

Questioning, please allow me to ask a question of you. As a veteran scouter of over 50 years this should not be a problem to answer. Since what we teach to the scouts is, and always has been, contained in the Boy Scout Handbook and the youth Handbooks of the Cub Scout program, please site a skill, value or lesson from a handbook of the past and compare it to a specific skill; value or lesson of the present handbook to prove your point. One piece of actual evidence is all I ask for. Not an opinion, not social/political jargon. Just one piece of actual evidence that what you say we are teaching today's scouts is true. Take as long as you need. Bob White

I never said being a good patrol member wasn't important. I'm saying it is irrelevant to good leadership. If you would like, take Baden-Powell as one example. Would you consider him a good leader? A good teacher? All of England did. Because, he was a terrible student. He was never a good follower. But as an officer he had excellent leadership skills. Many of those skills have been passed on through the BSA program. Being a good follower is not a skill, it is desired trait for those you are leading, but it in no way prepares you to lead. Only leadership skills will do that. The only thing needed to follow is to be able to obey, and that single skill will get you nowhere as a leader. Take our fisherman, fishing is the skill, the fish required no skills to do what the fisherman wanted, it just reacted to a stimuli. Leadership is an entirely separate set of skills and behaviors. No matter how good a follower you are, you will fail as a leader without the skills of leadership. I would disagree that patrol members are followers. The role of the PL is not tell people what to do and the role of the patrol member is not to wait until the patrol leader gives him an order and then follow it. The role of the PL is communicate goals with the patrol, gather their input, coordinate the resources of the patrol to make the best use of the individual skills, get the job done in a way that allows the patrol to grow as a team. If you are using a military style chain of command you are not using the patrol method. An adult is simply running the troop by using a a human telegraph to hand down their orders. That's not scouting. Teaching scouts how to tell others what to do is not leadership development. What is the reason for the apparent aversion to actually using the leadership skills that the program is based on? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The opinion seems to be that all the gays in scouting should stay in the closet and continue to teach non-acceptance to the youth of america." Incorrect. The rule is that as long as you do not publicly avow your homosexuality you may remain a member and lead scouting using the methods of the BSA and supporting the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The law is that as a private organization the BSA has a constitutionally protected right of association and may approve or deny membership for any reason it chooses. The opinion of anyone on this board is irrelevent to the policy and the law. "Your neighbor or your neighbor's son or daughter could be one but unless you are accepting you may never know" Simply not true, you can be accepting and still not know. You won't know unless they tell you. Until that time they are eligible to be members of the BSA. Bob White

ooops! That should have been "Does a good chef have to be a good waiter first?" BW

"I am going to notify the SE of what I have been told and what I know. It will be up to him to decide whether enough is there to pursue or to simply hang up the phone and continue his day." That sums up your responsibility as a registered scouter. No more no less unless instructed otherwise. " Now, I have been informed that due to there ages, they are not in violation of any state laws." Good news from a civil standpoint, irrelevent to the Youth Protection policy of the BSA. For an adult to have one on one contact with a youth member is grounds for immediate and permanent revocation of membership even though it is not a violation of civil law. That is why any violation of the YP policies must be reported to the Scout Executive. Thank you for contacting your local SE. Bob White

"In fact at my councils annual Eagle banquet two years ago, the keynote speaker included being a good follower before being a good leader in his speech." As I said it's a very clever phrase. That doesn't mean it has any substance whatsoever. "If you have a Scout(s) who aren't willing to follow their leader, then how are they going to get anyone to follow them?" By using good leadership and management skills. Its is like saying in order to be a good fisherman you first have to be a good fish. Of course you don't, you just need to understand how fish behave and what bait is most effective. You don't need to have had gills first to do that. Does a good doctor first have to know how to be a good patient? Does a good athlete first have to know how to be a good spectator? Does a good chief first have to know how to be a good waiter? Leadership is about the effective use of specific skills, none of which are dependent on first knowing how to follow, but simply an understanding of basic skills such as planning, evaluating, motivating, teaching, and rewarding to name a few. Basing leadership develop on cliches is not a sound foundation. This is the whole purpose for training leaders, so that they will understand and use this kind of knowledge that the BSA has developed over 90 years of working with kids. Why learn the methods of scouting and the skills of Wood Badge if we arent going to implement them. The scouting methods work but only if they are used. Bob White

One of the things causing miscommunication twocubdad is you keep changing the question. lets look at the original question you asked. "is it not a basic principle that all adult leader uniforms are essentially the same?" That changed to "If you and I show up in identical uniforms -- except for your red shoulder tabs Scoutmaster position patch and my blue tabs and Cub Committee Chairman patch, no hats, no neckerchiefs -- are we not both properly uniformed?" Then you responded to my answer by saying "How can you say these two leaders don't "look anything alike"? You didn't ask if they looked alike. You asked are we not both uniformed correctly. We do not need to look alike to both be uniformed correctly. The answer to your first question is no. All leader uniforms are not the same.As I pointed out there is more than one uniform for leaders. Are all field uniforms the same? No, Only the tan boy Scout field uniform and the tan Cub Scout uniform are similar. As far as the second question, I should have answered yes. Yes, if I am in a correct Boy Scout field uniform and you are in a correct Cub Scout field uniform then we would both be correctly uniformed. (We would also look similar but that is not the question you asked.) Finally, "So according to your interpretation of the Insignia Guide, it is impermissible for me to wear the National Camp School neckerchief I got at CUB SCOUT day camp school? Why did the guys from regional even offer those neckerchief to a group comprised entirely of Cub Scouters?

"To be a good leader you must 1st learn to follow." As poetic as that sounds it's not supported in the leadership training of the BSA or any leadership training I have been exposed to or facilitated, and I've done a bunch of them. That is simply a clever turn of a phrase that has no sustantiation in study or application. To be a good drummer you don't have to know what it's like to be beat on. The leadership skills of scouting are sound ones and they do not include first learning how to follow. Bob White

There is no SPL in a regular patrol, however by holding an election you give every boy an equal opportunity at being the leader. So there would be no need to restrict anyone. Bob White

"Even though the SM picked the SPL, the Scouts should have done the right thing & followed his leadership." You can expect that kind of behaviour from adults, but kids are not built that way. The recocognition of a group leader within a small group is a natural instinct at this age. If you did not holsd elections or have a PL position and put 6 boys in a group together for a few days a single scout or a pair would be selected by the others. It is a natural socialization process that takes place in children. The scouting movement realizes this, and that is one of the reaasons that the junior leadsership is elected and not assigned. Bob White

The correct uniform term was the "overseas hat" sometimes reffered to as the "envelope hat". It was replaced by the red beret, and while no longer in production it is still an official uniform piece. Bob White

"In regards to the BSA issue, I understand the policy and I have no argument with it. My only assertion was - as should be the case with all accusations, especially those that taint reputations and careers, one should tread cautiously and gather all of the facts, before condemning." I will offer a differnt view. As far as the BSA Policies instruct, it is not our place to condemn anyone. Nor is it our responsibility to 'gather all the facts'. Our sole legal and moral responsibility is to "recogognize and report". It is up to the appropriate agencies to gather facts and evidence, and up to the courts to pass judgement. The longer we take to report the more opportunities that arise for abuse to continue, or rumor and innuendo to spread. For that reason it is vital that all scouting volunteers take the Youth Protection training to undertstand how and when to act on such matters. We are not the detectives, we are not the police, we are not judge and jury. "Recognize and report" then let others fulfill their roles in this matter. Bob White

Sorry for the typos. I need to quit dashing off posts as I am heading out the door. Terry please add spell check! BW

There is a BSA Flying Permit No.19-672 found in the appendix of the Guide to Safe Scouting that must be filed at least two weeks in advance of the flight with the local BSA council office. By the way it is also the 100th anniversary of the Harley Davidson, The 100th anniversary of Ford, the 50th anniversary of the Corvette, and my parents 50th wedding anniversary. Bob White

My apologies Merlyn, let me be more specific. We have volunteers from all education levels. There are indeed some groups and individuals whose walks in life take them on paths with values we do not accept. If there was a way to restrict individuals with avowed crudeness I would support that as well. Bob White

I would hate for someone to read a post like the one above and think that it reflects the thoughts, opinions or attitudes of the BSA. It does not. local chartering organizations are responsible for the selection and approval of adult volunteers and they come from all walks of life.