Bob White

So Zahnada, Is it your proposition that 1. The press release is the policy 2.The policy never existed before that press release. 3. That the policy never included Homosexuals 4. The policy was never challenged in court before and so was not well known to the general public. If the Policy is new, what was the policy before? Where is it stated? Am I leading you to a point? Yes, but it is largely self-discovery. Bob White

Shemgren, As the unit advancement chair, I would document my concerns and sent a copy to the district advancement chair and the council advancement chair. Since it is their job to see that the project was administered and conducted properly, and since they are involved in 'the next step' this is information that could help them make a good decision. Just keep in mind it their decision at this point. Remember also that an Eagle Boards decision must be unanimous, "you can fool all of the people some of the time, Some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time." Bob

Here is where I see the difference, and by the way in 25 years I have only sent three or four scouts home. Itis not the responsibility of the SM or the ASMs or of the junior leadership to punish kids. Look in any BSA resource you choose thats not what we train for. Why waste time and energy making up unrelated stunts or punishmets that often just interfere with delivering the scouting program to the other scouts. The BSA makes parents responsible for punishing their own children. If a scout decides he needs punishment then my job is to get him in close proximity to his parents so that they can do their job and I can do mine. The best way to do that is to bring the parents to the boy. I volunteer my time to share scouting with boys willing to behave according to the Oath and Law. When a scout misbehaves we discuss what the oath and law say. We discuss the positive and negative ramifications of the behaviour and why the values of scouting are important. We come to an agreement that scouting activities are for scouts, and what makes you a scout is not your rank, or your skill at knots, or first aid. What makes you a scout is your character. So show me by your character that you are a scout or you cannot stay at a scout event. A boy who follows the oath and law can come to any event he wants but If you violate the oath or law I don't care what your rank is, how many merit badges you have or what office you hold. You get a chance to make a decision to either go to your parents for whatever punishment they choose to administer, or to act like a scout and stay. I'm there to work with scouts. Bob White

Boy Scout Handbook Page 108 Bob White

Zahnada, If there is now a written policy then you should be able to share with us what it says precisely, when it was written, and where it can be found. I would interested in such information. Bob White

Ed, it's unfortunate that you allow your dislike for me to block you from actually reading what I write. I said in my first post in this string that I liked most the ideas but thought they were better suited as Cub advancement requiremnets rather than as merit badges. I was not the only poster to say that yet, you single me out. At the point that the substance of your argumnet uses as its only supporting evidence 'just because you say so Bob doesn't make it right' it is probably best to let it go. Or perhaps save yourself some time and simply type "Says you!" Bob White

Follow this link to a previous thread on this topic. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=23976#id_23977 As a commissioner you will not find any really useful info in the By-laws. Fo the most part it establishes the existence of Councils and districts, their responsibilities and operational structure. The rules that you will need to be familiar with are those that a unit need to know. These rules and policies concern, Uniforming, advancement and safety. This info is not found in the by-laws but in specific resources dealing with those topics. Bob White

There was no threat. There was a calm dicussion of the values of the scout law. An explaination of the what could happen to the troop and a choice they could make. Some leaders would have had them go on a hike, or run laps around the camp, or do extra kitchen duties. I gave them the opportunity to behave as scouts at a scout event or go home. No hollering, no stunts, punishment was left to the parents and scouting left to those who live by the Oath and Law. I leave it to the readers of the thread to decide which method they feel is more scout-like. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Hooray for that leader! In a truly boy-lead troop - it IS your job as the SPL to 'lead' the boys. Actually it's not. It is the senior patrol leaders job to help Patrol Leaders to succeed, and to chair the troop meetings and the Patrol Leaders Council. Each Patrol Leader helps their patrol members to succeed, and coordinates the efforts and resources of the patrol. It's the adult leaders job to train them and set a good example. "Come up with a reward or punishment for noise" I think Laura is half right here. I really like the reward idea. Reward only good behavior. But leave punishment to parents and the troop committee. There are better ways to change scouts than punishment. This weekend we had a campout. Two of the scouts had difficulty in both telling time and adjusting their volume control. In the wee wee hours of the morning I headed for the latrine more in hopes of being seen by our noise makers than for personal comfort. They saw me and said hi, I motioned the two over and whispered that the camp had an "all's quiet" rule until 7 AM. I explained that their noise could get us thrown out for not being obedient and courteous. I asked if for the sake of the troop I should ask them to be quiet, or send them home, and that I would let them choose. When I got back from the latrine if they were back in bed and quiet I would assume they chose to stay. They were in bed. The next morning I saw them walking by for water and invited them to join the adults for a moment. We talked about what happened the night and asked them if they understood what they had done wrong. They apologized and assured us that it would not happen again. We shared some cantalope with them and they walked away feeling good about the interaction and having learned a lesson. No punishment. Communication, explaination, reflection, reinforcement. It's the scouting way. Bob White

Wow is right! LauraT7, You might think I'm from another planet compared to some of the responses you have gotten but here are my tips. Summer camp is a young man's adventurous escape from home and school. It is something they want and something they fear at the same time. Make fun the priority. Let scouts choose thier own merit badges. If some pick the same subject fine. If a boy is uncomfortable going to a class alone, go with him. Introduce him to another scout and ease back out. Don't count merit badges. That is not what scouting or scout camp is about. It is about the experiences not what they complete. Keep a boy busy, fed and rested and he will not get homesick. Take time to talk with the scouts individually, find out what they are enjoying, what they've learned, what they have done, what they want to do next. Count their personal successes not their bowel movements. If their clothes get dirty teach them how to wash them. don't take cotton towels they don't dry well, take chamis towels. Never tell a scout what to do, when you can ask him what he thinks he ought to do. You will accomplish more by standing back and watching then by jumping in and doing (and so will the scouts). You have fun too, that's what summer camp is about. Bob White

As it has been pointed out sewing and tailoring are totally diverse topics. Sewing is to designing what home repair is to architecture...unrelated. Let's be honest it costs money to develop and produce merit badge books and patches. The BSA cannot afford to have unwanted books and patches sitting on shelves. Does anybody see hundreds, let alone thousands, of scouts looking to be either a tailor or a costume designer? Show of hands? OK besides Ed. Anyone? Anyone at all? Bob White

Because Ed it's not just about the leader. It's a partnership, a community. We as adults have a responsibility to do what is right for both the leader and the patrol. It is our responsibility to teach the elected leaders the skills of leadership. We have a responsibility to deliver the promises of the Scout program and Scout Handbook to the scouts. The handbook promises the boys they will get to elect their Patrol Leader. It does not say that they will have a Patrol Leader assigned to them by the Scoutmaster. I understand that not all troops work according to the handbook. Only the ones who follow the Scouting program do. Bob White

I never go camping without my...son. (I also have a snoot flute.) Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

SharonNC, Training committee members does not require a weekend. It takes three troop meetings. At the first one you do New Leader Essentials. At the next two you go through Troop Committee Challenge. Poof...they are are done with Basic Training. Bob White

Thanks OGE I knew you would do a good job. Ed, The original post asks... "Is it fair to have that one patrol leader responsible for scouts not in his patrol?" The Boy Scout Handbook says "Your Patrol will elect one if its members to serve as patrol leader." So the answer to the question is "No" it's not fair. The boys deserve the opportunity to choose their own leader. The Boy leader deserves to be treated better by the Scoutmaster than to be forced to lead scouts who did not select him. The way to sole Scout problems is through the methods of the scouting program. That's what they are there for. Thanks for the assist OGE. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi, back as promised. Page 26 of the Advancement Committee Policies amd Procedures manual. "Earning merit badges gives a Scout the kind of self-confidence that comes from overcoming obstacles to achieve a goal.Through the merit badge program, a scout alos learns career skill, develops socially and may develop physical skills and hobbies that give a lifetime of healthful recreation." Exerpted rom page 185 of the Boy Scout Handbook.. A merit badgeis an invitation to an excitibg subject. ...Earning merit badge can even lead you toward a lifelong hobby or set you on the way to a rewarding career. From page 123 of the Scoutmaster Handbook. Through the merit bagde program, many scouts have been introduced to a life-long hobby or even a rewarding career. I'm not saying there is not room for new badges, I just wanted to share some foundation as to how merit badges are selected. Hope this helps, Bob White

Ed, Humor me, read two things for me. 1. The first post in this string. 2. The first sentence of page 22 in the Boy scout Handbook. I'll be gone this weekend and I'll leave OGE as my stand-in. Please call him if the methods of scouting continue to elude you. Bob White

I will need to ask for your patience. I can give you the reference for my quote but I do not have it at the office with me and you know I like to be accurate. I leave from here to a weekend canoe trip with the troop so I will not be able to rebut until late Sunday or Monday evening, but I will gladly do so then. Thanks for your patience, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mark, I apologize for misattributing the quote. Zahnada, I offer you the same challenge I offered Questioning. You say there was a policy change, prove it. I have been a scout since 1963, and aleader since 1977, and I am not aware of a policy change regarding atheists or homosexuals or any individual who act or speak publicly against the values of scouting. I know of no point in time when membership was soley controled by the CO or the local council. Since 1916 all members registered with the national office not with the local council or charter organization. National has always been the final say in membership. So Zahnada, Mark, anybody who wants to try their hand at this. Give us one concrete piece of evidence to back up how you "think" scouting use to be. Give us a manual, a trainig guide, a Handbook that shows a policy change or a shift in the values of scouting. Give my one scouting manual or training syllabus that instructs scouts to be intolerant of athiest or homosexuals. Give my any BSA material that teaches anything about sexuality at all, hetero or homo, good or bad. Quit spewing generalities about what you 'remember' or what you 'think' or what you 'feel'. Give me proof that what you say existed in the BSA program. I'll wait here. Bob White

Ed I apologize if I have caused you further confusion. Please read the first sentence of page 22 of the Boy Scout Handbook. If you are still confused perhaps OGE can explain it to you. Bob White

Ed, Because, the Patrol Method is based on participating citizenship. As members in the patrol they have the right to elect their own representatives and leadership. There could be a few boys capable of doing the job. Scouting gives the power to select youth leadership in the hands of the boy. A provisional patrol (if you must go that way) should, by the patrol method, elect their PL. rather than have the SM assign one. Aren't we back where we started a couple pages ago? Do we have to chase our tales to understand the patrol method and boy elections? Bob White

Before I respond Zahnada, you need to make a decision. In point 1 of your post you say we have changed, in point 2 you say we have not. pick one. Do you think the BSA has changed their values over the year or do you believe thay have stayed the same and the world has changed around them. Which is it because it can't be both. Bob White PS, Questioning where did you go? We are waiting for that one sliver of evidence that supports that the values have changed during your 50 plus years in scouting.

Mark, You are welcome to disagree but it is not my statement, it is the BSAs. You can add to it for the purpose of this string but it will not change the programs purpose for merit badges. Yes, it is also to challenge the scout in order to give him increased self-confidence, but the guideline for selection of merit badges and the reason to have them is to introduce scouts to activities that could become a lifelong interest or career. While I do not disagree on Cooking as an Eagle required MB , its important to realize the criteria for Eagle required badges. They are all related to the 3 aims of scouting. So although a MB area may be a personal favorite only those relating to the three aims are eligible for Eagle required. I see cooking as fitting that criteria. Bob White

Ed, Because, the Patrol Method is based on participating citizenship. As members in the patrol they have the right to elect their own representatives and leadership. Certainly Ed this is not an aspect of scouting unfamiliar to you? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

In the "11 Leadership Skills of Scouting" used as the foundation of Junior Leader Training, that skill is called "Understanding the Needs and Characteristics of the Group" . And just as the fisherman doesn't need to have been a fish but needs to understand the habits and behaviors of fish, a leader need never have been a good follower to be able to learn and practice this leadership skill. Empathy is a far more important leadership trait than sympathy. I can understand and appreciate how you feel without having to make myself feel as you feel. I can better lead a group by understanding the individuals in the group, I do not have to have been a part of the group for that to happen. Bob White