Bob White

The offices of the National Council of the BSA moved to irving, Texas 24 years ago after being in NJ for 25 years. I believe the New Brunswick building burning down had something to do with deciding to move elsewhere. The Texas location I believe was a corporate donation. Bob White

I know this is not what BSA wants but the boys have made the decision that this is OK. Where did the scouting program tell you that? Bob White

Hi Laurie, I really wasn't concerned about the merit badges but I just wanted to make sure he was not just working on one rank at a time. Although I disagree with the troops method of the troop meetings I think your son's progress seems just fine. Bob White

I think Cubsrgr8 makes some excellent points. BW

Merlyn, I actually know and understand the BSA so nothing you can provide will change my support of it. I am confident that nothing I, or anyone on this board, provides you will alter your chosen course. The Constitution of the United States says that I have a right to free association and cannot be forced to associate with those whose values, ideals, and behavior I find offensive. Thank you for your offer but I will decline. I believe that if I wrestle in the mud with a pig we would both get dirty, the only difference being that the pig would enjoy it. Good night, Bob White

Merlyn, If I told you that the BSA wrote a letter to every person in the USA telling them the rules you would say "sure but they didn't use the good stationary". You're a one trick pony and a tiresome one at that. What you don't know of the BSA you make up, and the little you do know you don't understand. I wish you well in your personal battle against the values of the BSA and hope you find something that will actual give your life a positive legacy. best of luck Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Heck, a few votes in the other direction (okay, a few hundred-thousand votes) and the Presbyterians could be in that same catagory. And if that happens before the BSA changes the values of scouting then they will be dropped as chartered partners and their Religious awards will be removed from the uniform. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's important to remember that the majority of people from the many different sides and perspectives want only one thing: the preservation and growth of a great organization and the boys who participate. Don't kid yourself. The Democratic National Committee in 2000 asked the local BSA council to provide an Eagle Scout honor Guard to present the nation's flag and lead the Pledge of Allegiance to open the Convention. Then the thousands in attendance waited for these boys to enter and on national TV boo'd them until they left. Thousands of adults ambushed these boys and you think they want what is best for scouting. They want what is best for their personal political agendas. They want to gain public acceptance threough the aknowledgment of the BSA or they want to shut the BSA down. PERIOD.

Thats ridiculous Merlyn. My parents were scouters in the sixties and they knew full well that publicly known homosexuals would not be allowed as members. It wasnt until the late 70s and 80s that homosexuals started coming out of the closet. Once they did go public is when all the hub bub started. Dale knew what to expect. He did it to start the media ball rolling )(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Easily Twocubdad. The BSA does recognize Wiccan as a religion and for that reason allows adult and youth members who profess Wiccan as their religion. The BSA also allows Adult and Youth Members of the Unitarian Church. A Wiccan scout can earn the Wiccan religious award and is welcome to display it in whatever fashion the Wiccan organization allows, with on exception. The Wiccan Religious Award is not recognized for wear on the Boy Scout Uniform. The reason is that it's requirements do not meet the standards of the BSA. In addition Wiccans could have become Chartering Organizations, however they told the BSA that they would not support the membership restrictions on homosexuals. So they basically removed themselves as COs. So the BSA continues to recognize a myriad of religious beliefs and they also continue to remain steadfast in there denial of homosexuals. Since homosexuality is not a religion it is not relevent to your argument.

Sounds like an interesting project, but shouldn't your son be asking the questions? After all isn't this a part of the planning he should be doing to fulfill the requirements of the project? Bob White

That is simply not true. Mark even proved that the BSA removed scouts at least 13 years prior to Dale for being homosexual and there was a document then of the BSA's stance. So Merlyn again you show an uncanny lack of knowledge about the BSA. By the way since when is a private organization required to make its rules public? You are not a member of the BSA, Merlyn, why would you expect to be aware of their rules? Bob White

Polytheism is not objected to by the BSA and the only reason the Wiccan religious awards are not recognized by the BSA and Wiccan based organizations are barred from being Chartering Organizations is their insistance to include homosexual members. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Laurie at this point which requirements for Second Class and First Class has he completed? BW

I believe that is what jbroganjr was relating the staff said (Since it was a part of the 'promotion' presentation). The PTC CRT faculty was suggesting that RT Staff members deliver a personal invite to leaders who have been absent. Is that right jbroganjr? By the way, glad to hear you enjoyed PTC. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

First off my wife thinks that except for the Grand canyon this is the prettiest place in the USA. Then as Eamonn says there are the great crafts, pottery, leatherwork, painting, applique,and more. The museums, the wildlife, the other people, the atmoshere, the Villa Philmonte. Plus activities, Horseback riding, hiking, COPE course. My wife enjoys sitting in the shade of the apple trees outside the Villa, while she reads a book and takes nature photos as deer, hummingbirds and other wildlife wander by. Bob White

"what has the BSA done for gays? For one thing the BSA has been honest with them. Something that many gays not been when it comes to how they treat the BSA and its members. The BSA said that they would not seek out homosexuals in the organization and they haven't. They said if you make public your homosexuality it interfers with our mission and your membership will be revoked, and they have been. They have not done anything outside of membership controls to defame, chastise, limit the rights, or reduce the funds of homosexual groups, members or supporters. The BSA has in fact dealt with this conflict with for more character, honesty, dignity and responsibility than have most of those that have worked in opposition to the BSA. And that, I believe, is the biggest hurdle that the political action groups confronting the BSA has in front of them and they created it through their own behavior.

little billie you asked where is it written who can make those policy statments, and who can decide whether or not Wicca or whatever is a faith, etc? Then you said "I was asking where you can see what's been set in stone - not who carved it." You did not ask where are the policies written down. You asked where it was written who can make policies and who those people were. So you did ask who carved it. The establishment of the Administration of the BSA can be found in the By-Laws of the BSA . Your local council service center has a copy you can go and look at. They are not distributed outside of scouting offices so that they can administer updates, but they are available for you to read. Bob White

The program, policies and methods of the BSA are are developed by numerous volunteer committeess made up of adult and youth representatives from across the country. Their recommendations for Policy and rules changes whether regarding sfety, uniform, advancement or membership are all sent for final approval by the national executive board made up of charter organization representatives from majory users of the program (more fodder for the conspiracy buffs out there), program volunteers, and business leaders who help support the program. They are selected to serve by the National President, the Chief Scout Executive and by the Regional Directors of the BSA. No matter how many web sites, bulletin board postings, rallies, protests, folklore or misrepresentations take place. Until that committee decides to alter the 92 year history of the values of scouting, the membership rules will not change. For some reason there are activists who think that they can demeonstrate their concern about the future of scouting and the welfare of scouts by trying to cut their fundraising, community support, resources and membership. How this exhibits a concern for young people eludes me, and I would bet, the Executive Board. Bob White

So mark do we agree then that the membership policy of the BSa that requires its leaders to live aand act according to the values of the oath and law does restrict avowed homosexuals AND that the "policy" existed long before the Dale case. And that the BSA does not see the practice of Judaism as a violation of the scouting ideals. That the values of the BSA are not required to change according to the fluctuating morals of any group or subgroup of society no matter how large or loud. That the BSA has the constituional right to free association and to deny membership of from individual based on any know behavior that the BSA feels interfers with the mission of the program. That the BSA has never taken steps to deny the rights of of any individual. Keeping in mind that the voluntary membership in a private organization is not a right. So, as stated before, the membership rules have never changed they are just more publicized and have become political fodder. The BSA is a private organization and has the right to choose membership and the responsibility to further the mission of ethical decision making based on the Scout Oath and Law. Individuals who are more concerned about expressing their personal choice of behavior in contrast to the values of scouting are given the opportunity to seek a more appropriate outlet for their personal and political issues, in order to not distract from the goals of scouting. (They have their membership removed). And Mark you knew that was the rule. You knew what would happen to your role as a volunteer in scouting. My opinion of your personal life is irrelevent. But your choice to go public was your choice, So why the whining. Why not go on with your life. Why harbor a grudge against the BSA for declaring their values and then not changing them when it effected you. The question is not will this decision affect scouting support or membership. The question is, what gives ANY group the right to dictate to a private organization who they must accept as members. The BSA does not forfeit its constitutional protections based on financial support or membership fluctuations or noisy political groups. Bob White

As I sit here CLOTHED scanning the news....by a funny coincidence MSN.com today listed 12 dead-end occupations. Guess what one of them wassewing machine operators. See it here http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-699.ZS.html So all you scouts yearning for the coveted Sewing Merit Badge, the line forms on the left. Luckily for you it is going to be a very short line. Sorry DS, Bob White

Actually DS there is a national Wiccan movement and they did present a religious award to the BSA. It was not approved for uniform wear and Wiccans have been restricted from being Chartering Organizations because they refused to accept and abide by the national BSA membership policies. On the flip side adult and youth members who site Wiccan as their religion may join scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mark, The city has the right to review their policies and even change them as long as they stay within their legal limits and obligations. How does that change the BSA's constitutional right to free association? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mark the link you gave http://www.inclusivescouting.net/bsa/documents/BSA_Memo_Feb_1978.pdf Says POSITION not policy it is an interpretation of the membership policy as it applies to a situation. (and by the way your other links do not work. The policy is not that the BSA excludes gays. The policy is that all members are expected to live according to the values of the Oath and Law, and that among the behavior that the BSA does not see as beneficial to delivering the mission of scouting is homosexuality in this case as explained in a position statement. But the behavior not supported by the BSA is not exclusive to atheism and homosexuality, they just have bigger PR firms. I never said that homosexuals were not restricted from membership I said that the policy does not single out any specific behavior other than anything that does not follow the values of the Oath and Law. And that that interpretation has always been the sole authority of the national office and was never in the past been left soley to the Charter Organizations as has been claimed in other posts. Bob White

Ok Zahnada, I will try to keep this brief but it is a complex situation. First most people who are rally against the Boy Scout program have no ideaa what they are talking about when it comes to membership or the history of membership. One site I found says that women were barred from membership until 1997 when they were allowed into Venturing. They were only off by 67 years. So you have to be careful as to your sources because what many people don't know they just make up. Another example is that there is a written plicy against Gays. There is not. There is a position statement clarifying the mebership policy that refers to homosexual members. But the policy itself has not changed with the exception of an addition made in the late seventies clarifying the BSAs stand on aheism. And still another falisey is that the BSA used to allow hmosexual members and now they don't. And, that the Charter organizations used to have total control of adlt membership. Never true. The Only written policy on membership for nearly 90 years was that members of the BSA must live by the values of the Oath and Law, and that adult leaders must advance the mission of scouting. This was expressed in several ways directly and indirectly in various resources including the Congressional Charter, the Unit charter, and the handbooks of the BSA. There have been many individuals who over the years have had their memberships revoked for behavior ill-fitting a scout. Adultery, theft, drunkeness, atheism, homosexuality. But the BSA keeps those confidential basically because it is nobody else's business. You only hear about them if the individual makes it public. So why do you here about them know. Because times have changed. More people are willing to make their personal lives known. Because the media spreads news further and faster through new technology, because there are movements who are magnafying and exploiting these incidents, because we have a blatantly litigious society. The longer scouting holds to its "timeless values" the wider the gap appears with the fluctuating morals of todays world. That doesn't make scouting wrong just different. And we all know how difficult people have tolerating others who are different. So the policy has never changed. members are expected to follow the Oath and Law and live by the values of scouting. So in 1991 when Dale went public the BSA needed to explain their policy in a way the public could understand. Here is the position statement they released. "We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirements in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout law that Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not prove a desirable role model for Scouts." It was not a new policy it was an explaination of how the policy fit this situation. Here is a great explaination of the Supreme court ruling and why the decided in the way they did. http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-699.ZS.html Nowhere and at no time has the BSA said anything derogatory about homosexuals other than there choice of behavior as members of the BSA, if known by the scouts and the public, would interfere with the mission of our private organization. A fact that was agreed upon by a majority ruling of the Supreme Court. I defy anyone to show evidence of the BSA trying to cut funding, deter corporate or community support, or holding rallies to harm the homosexual community in any way. The BSA has simply stood by a constitutionally supported right to associate with those they feel agree to the values of the Oath and Law. Just as you can choose who can enter your home. Also take note that there are homosexual leaders that the BSA has not expelled because they do not make an issue of their homosexuality, so it does not interfere with the mission of the program. It is only when the behavior interferes with the progranm thet membership is revoked. So there has been no policy change. The BSA has not changed. The BSA taken no steps to denounce the rights of homosexuals. And in fact the BSA created a separate foundation to provide a program that was all inclusive. I don't know if I answered all your questions but I'm hopeful I dispelled some misconceptions. Bob White