Bob White

Sorry Eisley but you are incorrect. Venturing crews cannot hold OA elections. BW

Actually OGE, it was "a game with a purpose." and it was B-P. BW

"We have about six boys in my troop that have all the requirements for tenderfoot, second class and first class checked off except for Scoutmaster conferences and Boards of Review." Let me get this straight FOG, You have kept 6 scouts who have completed everything for 18 ramk advxncements waiting because some aqdults haven't found the time to do the only parts of the advancement they are responsible for, and your bragging about this? What are these boyse missing? Their recognition for the work they've done! Bob White

Fat Old Guy, I'm not a fan of the New Scout Patrol. I've seen far too many that were run like Third Year Webelos Dens with the ASM for New Scouts and a couple of Dads running the show. The troop guides are often shut out of the process so you have a bunch of adults ramming everything down the throats of the boys. All of the activities seem to be geared toward specific requirements instead of the Scouts finding advancement opportunities in activities. Who hasn't seen scouting done badly at more than one unit? That is not a reason to ignore the program, that is a reason to work to do it right. but what does a 10.5 year old know about leadership or even the patrol method Nothing. That is why they are a ptrol leader for 30 to 60days. So that they can attend a PLC and learn what "boy lead" means and how a troop operates. so, again the adults do the work. NO. That's why each NSP has a Troop Guide. To guide the inexperience PL throough his short tenure to understand the role and responsibilities of the PL. The guide also begins his leadership training to teach him how to get scouts to participate without bossing them around. The new Scouts may advance quickly but Scouting is no more about advancement than karate is about belts. So who said it was? Scouting isn't supposed to be about hanging with your buds. I'm sorry you must be talking about a different scouting program than Boy Scouts. Only the New Scout Patrol is age segregated. Regular patrols can be but seldom are a blend of 11 1/2 to 18-years-old, and Venture patrols are 13 to 18-years old. Where is this segregation you are talking about? The program is simply giving special attention to new scouts to make them more comfortable, allow them some time to mature and socialize, and to learn the basics of troop operation and scout skills. That's all it is. It has proven itself over the last 14 years (in troops that use it) to increase retention and grow the troop while alowing multiple program s to exist in a unit based in the maturity and ability of each patrol. Bob White

Dan, Patrol organiozation is desuigned to work like this. Upon joining scouts a boy is placed in a new scout patrol. This can be done based on a number of factors, but by Webelos Den is most common. Upon reaching First Class a Scout can chose to join a regular patrol or stay with the NSP as it converts to a regular patrol. But it needs to be the boy's choice. Who picked your friends for you when you were 11? Regular patrols are often developed around scouts with similar interests, or from the same school or neighborhood or other common ground. Venture patrol is for scouts 13 or older, who show the skill and maturity for more independent and higher adventure activities. I hope this answers your question. NWScouter, I agree that some of the reason for the New Scout Patrol was to create safeguards in behaviour that were ignored or allowed under too many Scoutmasters. And it works. BW

Eagledad, As far as I can find, aged based patrols were basically introduced by National in the early 90s. There are no age based patrols, They are experienced based. National was reacting to low Eagle numbers in the mid 80s and decided to make changes to better the program I have no idea where you got his from. In 1980 the percentage of Eagle Scouts was at a high for that time in scouting and has grown steadily since 1910 from one out of a hundres to the current 5 out of onehundred. Im the 1980s the BSA celebrated its 1,000,000th Eagle Scout. OK fine, they propose it and hand it to us, why should we assume that will work when mixed age patrols where the norm and successful for over 75 years. This isn't something people make up in their sleep and write a memo on. Kids change. Many boys were not staying in scouts past the first year. The BSA surveyed them to find out why, talked with scout leaders who were seeing higher retention rates, identified what was making the difference, developed a program, tested it, and introduced it in 1989. but even they say it requires a lot more interaction from the adults. Yes, for the first few months the NEw Scout Patrol Takes a lot of adult interaction. Remember you are bringing these boys in from 4 years of adult leadership. You cannot just thrust them into a youth lead program and expect them to immediately adjust. New Scout Patrol is in some ways a decompression chamber where a boy adjusts over several months to the troop method while he learns the basic outdoor skills of scouting. My point is just because it's in the text, does not mean it should work? But Since you have the responsibility to deliver the BSA scouting program shouldn't you make an attempt to know, understand, and use the program you were given to deliver? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Good for you DS at least you will be doing something to make a change rather than talking about making changes. One piece of advice. Start with a youth survey to see what the interest level. The more scouts you ask the better since this will likely be an elective MB. Bob White

The BSA program does not support either totally mixed age or single aged patrols. The current program is built around groups of ages. The reasons for this are explained in the resourses of the program and when applied correctly do exactly what they are expected to do. In my son's troop as an example, in a community of around 80,000 with 24 troops in town, my son's is one of the three most popular. They have 39 scouts, 12 who started a year ago February and are still active (0% drop off)and all completed First Class within 15 months (most in 12) of joining. Six Scouts aged out at 18 this year, and 6 more will age out next year. 3 attended JLT, 29 are going to summer camp and 16 are going to high adventure after that. The only time the Scoutmaster (and its not me) talks to the troop at troop meetings is for the SM minute and recognitions). They use the New Scout Patrol, Regular Patrol and Venture Patrol, troop organization. So what makes it work so well? It's the program. The SM is good but only because he uses the program, The kids are good but most kids are and the program makes them better. Parent support ebbs and flows as in any unit. It's the scouting program. It works, but only when you use it all. You cannot change the recipe and get the same meal. I see so many troops go back and forth trying different things to solve their problems. Their problem is they don't follow the program. They follow bits and pieces and then expect total results. You can get total results but only from the total program. I wish your scouts the best of luck with whatever program you decide to use. Bob White

Optional doesn't make it unique or unusual. It's not as if you are starting another program. or doing something outside of a normal troop structure. BW

I have to ask where the idea that the venture patrol is a program change within unit comes from. The Venture Patrol is a standard part of troop operation. It is part of a paced graduation as a Boy Scout grows from New Scout Patrol, to Regular Patrol, to Venture Patrol. It takes into consideration the changing needs of a boy at different developmental stages. Venture Patrol is part of the regular troop organization, and is taught as such in all levels of troop training and the SM Handbook. I would also disagree that the Patrol method is fragile. Quite the contrary, over the years I have found it to be a strong natural occuring social behaviour among youth. The BSA has simply identified this behavior, named it and given us tools to direct it in a positive way. Training is 100% the key to a strong Patrol Method. There in lies the problem as to why every troop does not use it. It requires the SM to make training junior leaders their #1 priority. It also requires them to understand what "boy run" is. First of all I'm not sure that phrase exists in the BSA program (although I used it in two posts last year). BSA talks of a "Boy Lead Patrol", and a "Boy Lead Troop". But the program is adult run. The difference is that boys control the boys, not the adults, and that the boys have a controlling say in the activities of the patrols and troop. But the Adults have a responsibility to keep the boys decisions within the guidelines, aims and methods of the Scouting movement. You do not quit using any of the methods because the boys vote not to use it. You do not ignore policies because the boys vote not to follow it. So do not misuse "Boy Lead" to abdicate the adults responsibility to keep the program on track. As Baden-Powell said, "The Patrol method is not one way to run a troop, it is the only way." The BSA has refined the patrol method over the years by studying the nature of scout age boys. Just aas Troops who use New Scout Patrols and First Class Emphasis see a great retention rate in the first three years, troop that use the three tiered patrol structure in their troop organization see a greater retention of scouts past the age of 16. I am always amazed by SM who tell of the numbers of boys they lose to gasoline and girls, and yet when asked if they use the venture patrol they invariable say no. Even more interesting is the number who say they dislike it so much that they never tried it. Do not try to do the patrol method. Do it. Do not try New Scout patrols or Venture Patrols. Do them. There is a reason to the information shared in scout handbooks and training, it's what the scouting program is. Bob White

Well said Eamonn BW

scoutldr, To become a Venturing scout you must be at least 14-years-old, and meet the same religious and moral obligations as any member of the traditional programs of scouting. Yes, a CO may add to the joining requirements set by the national office of the BSA, but they may not subtract from them. At age 21 a youth member opf the Venturing program ages-out just as an 18-year-old Boy Scout ages-out. No one kicks them out, their tenure in the program ends. The CO may choose to select this person as an adult leader but is not required to. NWScouter, Unless the father is a registered scout the CO, or BSA would have no authority over his future. If he were a member I would expect a CO and the BSA to be as concerned about their continued membership as they would with a female member. I am not aware of any instructions from the BSA to treat them differently. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The three aims of scouting are to develop character, citizenship, and mental and physical fitness. Among the 8 methods used to achieve these three aims is the scout Uniform. The Patrol Method is another of the 8. Each is important in its own way, and all are needed for a successful scouting program. Bob White Bob White

Btps, By qualified leadership I mean that if you are going to have a patrol focusing on high adventure you need an adult familiar with some of the skills, safety and area resources available to make the program happen. BW

Just checking btps. OK, why do you need committee approval to follow the troop organization outimned in the Scoout Handbook, SM Hadbook, SPL HAndbook and PL HAndbook? Do you seek permission to teach first-aid or knot tying, or to hold elections? The role of the troop committee is to provide suppot to the troop program not to determine troop program. That being said, I highly recommend organizing a venture patrol if you feel you have enough scouts with that interest and a qualified ASM to oversee the patrol and help them to become more independent in thier planning and participation in activities. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The difference is in the social needs and characteristics of teens compared to preteens. As the scouts age they want to spend more time with people in their same age group. It is a natural bonding phase that you might as well accept and work with to your advantage thanto try to ignore or fight against. The venture patrol has existed for several years and has gone through a number of name changes (Leadership Corps comes immediatly to mind). It is not a new concept and works extremely well when done correctly. But the surest way to insure that it doesn't work is to not use it. Bob White

just a quick note to wish everyone a Happy 4th-of-July celebration. Be safe, and remember we may not live in a perfect system but it is the best and most coveted country in the world today. Our thanks to the men and women who defend it, past present and future. BOOM,BOOM,BOOM AHHHHHHH! Bob White

One of the things I have learned from scouting is that it is important to be active in your religious responsibilities. It has also taught me, that as a scout leader, not to judge the value of one faith over another despite my personal beliefs. Bob White

Sign an application saying you will follow the rules, methods and programs of the BSA, provide me your Social Security number so that I can do criminal background check, provide me with three personal references, let me watch yo on a campout and a few troop meetings to see how you behave with kids. Then I will take my recommendation to the Committee Chair. Why should I treat you any differently then a parent in the troop? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I mean uniforms are one of the 'Aims of Scouting'. No, it's not. Has BSA ever asked boys what they want in a uniform? There are youth member representatives on every national committee I know of. GSUSA recently changed uniforms and provided more options based on the feedback they got from the girls. Do not try to find comparisons between these two totally different programs. There really aren't any. Bob White

The difference is that what scoutldr has described are program changes and method changes, not values or mission changes. To change the membership regulations will require the members of the National Executive Board (representatives of the country's major religions, American Legions, Moose, VFW, and others) to vote to change the values of scouting. It is not a bet I would put even a little money on happening. Will the program continue to change, absolutely. It will always adjust to meet the learning needs of our youth members. Will the rules on who will be youth members change....well, never say never...but if that's what you are hoping for I wouldn't plan the celebration anytime soon. Bob White

actually venture patrols in troops is the program. 1-yr in New Scout Patrol to learn the basics, 2-yrs in a Regular Patrol to practice the skills and mature, then spend the remaining time in Regular or Venture Patrol. Venture patrol should be older boys with strong skills and desire for high adventure. This is a standard troop organization and should not require the approval of committee or COR to do. Is permission required to form any other patrol? Bob White

I believe that you both might be confusing some terms here. There is a Venture Patrol and then there is Venturing. Two different things. A Venture patrol is just a patrol of older scouts within a troop. They do more things that involve high adventure than the regular or new scout patrols. They were the same uniform and have the same advancement program as the rest of the troop. A scout in a venture patrol ages out on his 18th birthday like any other Boy Scout. Forming a venture patrol does not require committee action. It is a basic element of troop operation recommended by the BSA. Venturing involves a Venture Crew, which is a totally separate unit from a troop and holds its own charter with a chartering organization. An organization that currently charters a troop can choose to also charter a Venturing program, or a business or organization that has no previous scouting connection can choose to charter a Venturing program. Venturing has its own uniform and it own unique advancement program. It uses diffent methods than troop scouting, has it's own values and program activities. It is a co-ed program and a member ages out on their 21st birthday. So btps, is your committee discussing a venture patrol or a Venturing crew, or are they perhaps confused about the difference as well? Once you are sure which they mean we can provide you with more information. Bob White

Zahnada, I never said the DNC was representative of America, and I don't think all democrats are opposed to scouting. In fact I think the members of Boy Scouting are repesentative of America. I think the majority of Americans support and accept the values and membership standards of the program. That is precisely why certain political action groups are trying to use us. I know a lot of people both in and out of scouting. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a scouter. I have only had three people tell me they disagree with the membership rules in 25 years. All three of them said that if they had scout age children they would still let them join scouting. Because even though they did not agree with this one element, there are far more benefits to scouting that more than outweigh it. I have had numerous parents ask when signing up their Tigers if we still maintain our membership atandards, and when I say yes they tell me that is one of the reasons they are joining. So I think the BSA represents the values that most Americans still beleive in and want for their children. We are not trying to please everyone and should not be coerced to. Bob White

Very close to the Philmont story. Waite was actually a brother of the two that started Phillips Petroleum. Waite worked as an accountant briefly for the firm but then started his own company. Yes he did donate the 138,000 acres of land that is now Philmont to the BSA, but it was not done all at once. Yes he did donate Philtower to the BSA to pay for the maintenance of Philmont. There is also far more to the story, a good book to read would be Beyond the Hills, the journey of Waite Phillips by Michael Wallis. Bob White