Bob White

Dan what were you thinking? Equating a Boy Scout uniform and a Boy Scout Handbook with Boy Scouting? Why that's like equating a baseball players uniform and a book on how to play baseball, with the game of baseball. Preposterous! Next thing we know, you will be saying that an automobile and a Rules Of the Road manual are related to driving. Well FOG now that we understand your depth of knowledge of the scouting program, how about taking a stab at telling the truth. There are two simple questions waiting for you to answer. It does not involve breaking any rules, being rude to posters, or revealing any confidential information. All it takes is character. If you don't have enough to answer the questions then how can you have enough to lead children. Bob White Bob White

Acco40, I just want to clarify what you said about blue cards. You meant blue cards are to be used in all troops but not all council service centers collect them for record keeping, instead they record MB on the standard Advancement Record form, right? Bob White

I can remember some of the tips we were given. it should symbolize the patrol in some way, be simple enough for every one to remember and draw, small enough to go by your signature,include everyones input, have some elements such as the course #, year, members names, patrol name, or patrol motto. Hope this helps, Bob White

Check with your council's Scoutreach executive. They sometimes have funds available for jumpstarting Units in "high risk" populations. Bob White

I want to thank everyone who wrote me on this string and through private messaging. I recieved nearly 3 dozen emails, all but two were very supportive. I was perfectly happy answering questions through PM but many of you have asked that I not do that. So I will stay on the public posts. I think it's important though not to close this string. Since it is in the political forum I hope Terry will continue to be liberal in the leeway he grants the discussion. Becasue this is about the politics of scouting. It is about the challenge we accept as scout leaders to exhibit a level of character that represents this program and each other. I feel it is important that FOG be made to answer the questions I have posed him. He has stolen another persons identity to join this forum. He used it when he registered. He uses it for his e-mail, and he posted under it when he came on board. He used it for several posts and he made a big deal of it being his name. It is not. He knows it is not and at least 6 people on this board knows it is not. He lied to Terry when he registered, he lied to all of us when he posted, and you deserve to know that. This is the same scouter who in this very thread said "I've been watching this thread for entertainment purposes but when you start lying about what I've said, I have to jump in." Funny that he should not jump in about his own lies. This guy, who claims to be a scout leader, steals the name of a another scouter. When confronted directly about it he hides from the question. It's time to reqire FOG to display what little he has in the way of character and answer truthfully. Is he Al Lundy? Is he the same person who posted as Yaworski and zorn and was told to leave for breaking the rules of this board? I really don't care if it is yaworski and wants to return to the forum. Thats up to Terry. I just think you need, and deserve to know the truth about the character of the person who is stealing identities and slandering board members. I ask that you not close this string until FOG answers for what he did. Some of us know the truth. Fog is one of them. Is he man enough to tell the truth? I don't think so. I don't think he has the moral integrity to face us with the truth. Thanks for listening, Bob White

"I was once told, that the only division in scouting that makes money, is the merchandizing division." Just for clarification caddmommy it is actually called the "Supply Division", and you are correct it is the only division to make money. However it is the only division that sells anything, and so no other division is capable of making money. Bob White

Fog has conveniently stopped his quote on the left side of a comma. The entire sentence reads. 4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: It then goes on to explain the conditions. So Fog is incorrect in his explanation. Using his own scenario if the SM and one ASM are the only adults who can go to an event, a 17 year old Scout can drive a third car providing >He has six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) >No record of accidents or moving violations >Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders Bob White

No one asked you to use it. I asked two simple questions that can be answered with a yes or no response without violating any rules. You don't like lies, so don't, simply answer the questions honestly. Bob White

That was a terrific explanation Ed. So may I suggest a resolution. Let's let FOG speak for himself. As a scout leader who has already told us that he doesn't like lies, lets give him the opportunity to set the record straight. FOG First posted as Al Lundy and said on more than one occasion that it was his real name. FOG, was that the truth? Yaworski and Zorn Packte were caught by the administrator of the forum for being the same person and dual posting as well as other violations of the forum, and told to leave. Fog, are you that same person? (keep in mind your personal commitment to honesty). Ed let's see if we have an honest person in FOG or not, We already know yaworski's credibility. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

For food, for raiment, For life, for opportunity, For friendship and fellowship . . . We thank Thee, O Lord.

Mark, Please check your private message mailbox. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Thanks acco40, this is new territory for me. The family has been in this country for three generations so I do not know if they consider themselves part of a caste system any longer. Dad spoke during the court about the dedication of the scout leaders and the character growth he watch in his son that he attributes to the scouting movement. A typical son, he started his speech off by saying "thanks mom". It was a very touching court really. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"You keep saying that FOG has rejoined us." No, I think I have only said it once. What is more important, what I think or what FOG knows? Honesty is important to FOG, I think that is commendable. Is Fog also Yaworski or zorn or the first name he posted as and said was his? FOG knows and if he feels honesty is an important element of a scouters character then he will tell you the truth. So ask FOG about FOG. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Patience Hops, the vast majority of posters have stuck to the topic. Although I'm fascinated that FOG calls "Foul" when he he feels someone has lied, a act that FOG did repeatedly to the entire population of this forum the moment he rejoined the us. Let's not let his distain for the handbook, the uniform, or the policies of scouting force the discussion to be locked. The more you know of his opinion and methods of scouting the better you can determine his value to scouting and this forum. Bob White

We had an iteresting Eagle Court of Honor this afternoon for a fine young man in my son's troop. His family is from India and the invocation and benediction were done by a Hindu religious leader (sorry, I don't remember the correct term). He chanted blessings from sanscript. It was very intersesting and quite beautiful. I spoke with him afterwards and he was fascinated by the comparisons between the Scout Oath and Law and the Hindu religion. He spoke quite eloquently of the similarities in his address to the court. This is not a religion which we are often exposed to. I am contunially amazed at how much we are all alike and how small we learn our differences can be once we learn to listen to each other. I am gathering information for him on the Hindu/Scouting religious recognitions. A terrific young man as well. He has my son and several others re-invigorated about their work toward Eagle. Just thought I'd share. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Define worked. I have seen a lot of things done in a scout uniform that worked for the adults that had nothing to do with scouting methods, or the goals or promises of scouting. Bob White

Thank you to all who posted to me in this string and contacted me by private messaging. Your comments are greatly appreciated. I have not left the board I am simply answering to the posters directly by private messaging so please check your mailboxes if you have posted a question anywhere on this forum in the last couple of days. In answer to one of your frequent questions...I run from no one. But, I have too much respect for what Terry and his staff are trying to accomplish here, and for the vast majority of posters and readers, to allow my posts to be used as a platform for FOG to spew from. It is rewarding to know that so many of you feel my input has helped you develop as leaders, I could ask for no greater compliment. I will be happy to continue answer any questions you would like to direct to me either on this board or at my e-mail address bobwhitebsa@msn.com. Your friend in scouting, Bob White

Hi jyaklovich, for some reason your Private messaging did not work so I will post this publicly. In response to your questions. "During the Eagle Scout Master Conference, can a boy fail if he does not know 100% his Tenderfoot, Secound Class, and First Class skills ?" Whether this was a SMC or a Board of Review, this would not be criteria for failure. In fact if it were a BOR you cannot retest at all, and really at an SMC it is not an appropriate line of questioniong since it does not concern the goals of the SMC. "Can the Scout Master continue to ask for follow up conference(s) until he ace's these skills ?" No, for the same reasons as listed above. Once a skill is signed off the testing is done. There is no retesting option in the advancement method. "Is this in compliance with National Boy Scout Policy for a Scout Master Conference." I think "policy for a SMC" is not an accurate term. It is not in keeping with the goals and purpose of a SMC. You can find these in the Boy Scout Handbook and in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Some additional points I would like to leave you with. Most Scoutmaster Conferences take 20 minutes or less. Even an Eagle Board of review should only take about 30 minutes to an hour at the most. Making sure the council has accurate records is the responsibility of adults. It was an adult who signed his MB card and an adult who sent the advancement report to the council. The scout should not have his SMC held up over paperwork. Also, the council only checks the advancement report for dates and to make sure the correct badges have been earned. As others have said the SMC is not a team sport. It should be the scout and the SM. I would direct the Troop Committee chair and the troop advancment chair to the appropriate sections of the Boy Scout Handbook and the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, so that they might see the errors they have done and correct them as quickly as possible. Good Luck, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Fellow Posters, Thank you for the kind support shown for what I too feel has been an unwarranted barrage of abuse from FOG. I make no apologies for supporting the written program of the BSA. I am thoroughly convinced that it is not only a good youth educational program, I believe it is the best. There are enough posters representing their own version of scouting that I think representing the contents of the program is a healthy counterbalance, and after all we did agree to deliver the "scouting program" to the youth we serve. So I admit without shame to book thumping what I think is a heck of a fine book. I do not embrace the title of pompous or arrogant with the same enthusiasm. My friends (of which I am glad to say I have many) say that I am knowledgable and secure in my use of the methods of scouting, as well as successful at it. If my posts come off as pompous I apologize. I do not have the skill to transmit my personality through my prose as effectively as FOG does. To my main point. I once heard of a fellow who had a jack ass that followed him everywhere he went. It followed him to work, kicking and braying at those around him. It followed him on errands displaying all the characteristics one would expect of a jack ass. It even followed him home and waited for the man to walk outside again where he would continue his kicking and braying. Bewildered the man knelt in prayer and asked God what he needed to do to rid himself, his friends, and his family of this annoying jack ass. Then the man recieved a revelation. A voice from the clouds boomed out and said.."well for starters you should quit feeding him". Bearing that advice in mind...please check your private mesaging e-mail boxes. If you have posted a question in the last 24 hours you probably have a reply waiting from me there. It would be unfair of me to continue wastiing your time posting here only to invide more nonsense from FOG. So,until FOG either changes his behavior (which I do not expect), or until Terry and the other board operators choose to rid us of FOG again (as they did when he violated the board rules before), I see no need to continue to feed him on this board. Anyone who wishes my input on a question is free to email me at bobwhitebsa@hotmail.com Happy scouting Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Merlyn, Paul accepted a belief in God, Darrell did not. Paul could stay, Darrell could not. BSA sets the rules, the members follow them and stay, or they do not. Very few have to chosen not follow the rules. Why do you suppose that is? Because the rules are not that difficult to follow? Because the vast majority like the rules and live by them daily? Because they see greater benefits to being in the program than being without it? Bob White

Sorry Merlyn i did miss that. evidently we both missed the part where "Paul reiterated that though he is willing to speak of "God,"...." so Paul and the BSa had common ground thereby Paul was no longer in conflict with the BSA. Reminding us that the BSA determines membership. Neither paul or the BSA altered policy, they both clarified there belief and worked through a communication problem, right? Bob White

Paul, had his membership revoked in 1985, he would have it revoked today. Nothing has changed. Did the BSA need to claify wording to be more understandable? It seems so. Did they change their membership policy? No. Paul did not meet the requirements then, he does not meet them now. No Change. Bob White

Welcome back questioning, I was hoping you were returning to answer the last question. You say the teachings of the BSA have changed. Where? Give me proof that local chartering organizations ever had sole authority in approving members. (By the way they you will need to go back prior to 1916) Show me a single piece of scouting literature where any gay-bashing takes place, or a single training syllabus where any group is ridiculed. Did you hear some scouters insulting gays? I'm sure you did. You probably heard people in all walks of life at some time doing that. Was it right? No. Was it endorsed by the BSA? Never! Were known atheists or homosexuals ever allowed membership by the BSA? Never. Has that ever changed? No, and you will not produce anything to show that it has. Remember prior to the 70's homosexuality wasn't discussed by anyone in public. You wouldn't even know today if a homosexual was removed from membership unless they themselves make it public. The BSA treats these incidents with confidentiality unless the individual chooses to disclose the event. I understand that you have a long history in scouting, many of us do. But experience does not always equate to knowledge. There are scouters who in three years know as much or more about scouting than us gray hairs. I think you know that if a Boy Scout in the 1950's announced they were homosexual they would be out of the program in a blink of an eye. So nothing has changed and you can show no BSA evidence other than your personal opinion that anything has changed. You are welcome to your opinion but it's groundless. So unless you can show some trace of hard evidence there is little left to say other than the BSA National Council's executive committee (not one man)have determined that that avowed homosexuals can not be effective in carrying out the mission of the scouting program ans that you disagree with that stance. Until that changes (and I do not believe it ever will) effected individuals have the right to leave the program and protest it, or stay in the program and abide by it. But your freedom of speech does not over-ride the BSA's freedom of association. Bob White

If you didn't know the answer fat old guy you should have just said so. And when have I ever been disingenuous? Bob White