Bob White

From the Boy Scout Songbook 1990 printing: Topnotcher Sweat Browser Eye winker Horn blower Soup strainer Lunch eater Chin chowser Rubber necker Chest protector Breadbasket Foot stomper BW

"HOW do you train the parents to allow the SM to handle the situation when it arizes at a troop function/event?" I think the next way is by having the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters demonstrate that he will take care of it. Where were they when this incident happened? how is it that a parent and a committee member knew what was going on but the SM and ASMs did not? The only way to gain the trust of the parents is for the adult leaders to demonstate their leadership skills and management of the program. "HOW do you teach the boys the Golden Rule when the parents of said boys have no conscience?" First how about teaching the boys the "Platinum Rule". The Golden Rule says treat others as you want to be treated. The Platinum Rule says "treat others as they want to be treated". Just because you don't mind being teased or insulted doesn't mean you should tease and insult others. Next a good way to teach scouts about not teasing or harrassing is through program elements like scoutmaster minutes, scoutmaster conferences, Boards of Reviews, reflections, religious observations, Patrol Leader Council meetings, counseling, Patrol recognitions, the Scout Oath and Law. It is an ongoing lesson. EagleDad please don't misunbderstand this I mean no personal assault or insult, just something to think about. It's always a good idea to have at least 4 leaders on a campout. Mainly so that if two adults need to leave camp (one gets hurt and one transports)you still have two adults with the troop. Another good reason is that if you get upset and you don't want to say anything in haste, then you get a buddy and you take the hike. Calm down, return to the situation and handle it in the way you need to. I'm am concerned by the number of posts talking about what to do when you tell a scout to do something and they say 'no'. Why is anyone "telling" a boy what to do? Why are we not "asking questions". The SM walks around the site and asks the SPL how things look and what could be done better. The SPL points out the litter around the tent and says that should probably be picke up. The SM says "thats a good point, who should you talk to about that?" the SPL say "I should talk to joe, he's the Ptrol Leader. The SM says "I think that would be a good way to do it. The SPL goes to Joe and asks "how do you think your patrol is doing and what what could they do better" as they walk over to the littered area. Joe's "I guess we should get that garbage picked up" The SPL says "that's a good idea, your doing a great job as PL who should you ask about picking up the litter?" Joe says I'll tell Fred and Mike it's their tent". The SPL says "think about it, did I tell you what to do or did I ask what needs to be done and let you decide?" Joe says "you asked". SPL says "how about bringing Fred and Mike over and asking them what they think they could do better and let them say they need to pick up the litter?" Joe says "I'll try that." Spl says "let me know when the job gets done, your doing great." The SM trains the SPL, the SPL trains the PL, the Pl trains the scouts in his patrol. Scouting it's a wonderful thing. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Padre, I have been involved in Wood Badge for 23 years, and counseled a number of participants and never ahve I heard the terms " extreme maritial and family problems due to the course", or "puts a lot of strain on families and marriages." used in reference to Wood Badge. Now I don't want you to get defensive about this because I'm not a licensed counselor, but isn't it more likely that a marital problem is caused by a personal relationship problem between two adults and not by a leadership class? Can a marriage realy be endangered by 4-nights out scouting? If so, think of the tens of thousands of marriages that must fail from Philmont treks, Seabase, Northern Tier, summer camp each year. Or is Wood Badge just a convenient scapegoate? I would be very interested in an example of how a 6-day course on introduction to leadership skills has that effect. Perhaps you are just not in a frame of mind or position that allows you to see the real problem? Bob White

I agree that "legal guardian" is usually paired with "parent". However I believe you will only find the term "adult partner" in reference to the Tiger Cub program. Bob White

Mk, this is more than bending, this is a violation of YP that could cost your son a lot of money and someone else their membership or charter. He does not qualify as a leader and has no liability protection. If he makes a decision that results in an injury (even if the rules of scouting were followed) he would not have any leagal or financial protection afforded him by the BSA. Have him Fill out an adult application before he goes and spend 40 minutes on line taking youth protection. It is a small investment for what is at stake.

Mk, this is more than bending, this is a violation of YP that could cost your son a lot of money and someone else their membership or charter. He does not qualify as a leader and has no liability protection. If he makes a decision that results in an injury (even if the rules of scouting were followed) he would not have any leagal or financial protection afforded him by the BSA. Have him Fill out an adult application before he goes and spend 40 minutes on line taking youth protection. It is a small investment for what is at stake.

We will DS to verify, However my understanding is that MBCs are registered at the council level. I am not sure that their application goes to national and has a criminal background check . Bob W.

"It seems to me the 18-year-old has the same legal standing as any other unregistered parent or adult." It might seem that way but it is not true. The Guide to Safe Scouting says that two deep leadership on outings is "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout." An 18 year old non-member, non-parent or guardian of a participating scout, is not an authorized leader in any sense and does not belong on an outing in a leadership capacity of any sort.

After reading your posts I would have expected you to be invited on staff. You have an excellent understanding of the program methods. Congrats. Bob White

NJ I am in no way suggesting that the buddy system should not be followed. I think a major part of self protection is being aware of possible danger and taking preventative acts. As a parent I would never let my son meet privately with an adult. You asked some questions Do you agree that an 18-year-old, still on the charter as a youth and not yet registered as an adult, would still be treated the same as an adult leader for purposes of the YP guidelines? (Well, based on your last post on that subject, you do not agree, so why not? Because once he turns 18 he is no longer a member of the BSA until he registers as ASM or Venturer. If he's not an adult and he's not a youth, I don't see what he is even doing there. First he must be either an adult or youth that is not in question. The question is is he a member of the BSA or not. He is not at this point. Secondly, I agree, What's he doing there? I would not let him in camp unless it were family night. If he is going to help out then he should register. As far as two adults in the car I agree. If one passenger was a scout their should be a second scout passenger. Bob White

Ok, I'll meet you in the middle on this one:). This is a long explanaition so I apologize in advance. First I want to state that I fully endorse the practice of having a buddy at a MB session, and I don't want anyone to misinterpret or misrepresent that stand. The Boy Scout Handbook pg187 instructs the scout to "along with another scout, a relative, or a friend, set-up an attend your first session withthe merit badge counselor. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual page 26 says Scout Buddy System "A Scout must have a buddy with him at each meeting with a merit badge couselor. A Scout's buddy can be another parent or guardian, a brother or sister, or a relative or friend. The pamphlet 'A Guide for a Merit Badge Counselor' says What Do I Agree to Do? (second item) "Have a buddy present with each scout at all instructional sessions." The Youth Protection Policies which are part of the the Guide to Safe Scouting say NOTHING about merit badge sessions. So here we go. First as I stated before the MBC is not required to have a second adult. Second, I was wrong to say "recommends", some of the manuals that address this issue say 'must'. But it is a tiger with no teeth. There is no negative repercussions for either the MB counselor or the scout for not doing this. That is why I said recommends. The responsibility to follow this procedure is on the scout. It is the scout who must show up with a buddy. As NJ pointed out scouts do have more fun learning with others, BUT the purpose of "the buddy system" is safety as explained on page 57 of the Boy Scout Handbook. The buddy for merit badges need not be a scout, or anyone connected with scouts or anyone even interested in the topic. It just needs to be "somebody". Although the merit badge counselor should see that the scout has a buddy nothing in the instructional guide to the MBC says they cannot meet with the scout if he does not bring a buddy, and having a buddy is not listed in the requirement of any merit badge. As I said a tiger with no teeth. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual states that "every" merit badge counselor "must" be trained in the Aims and Methods of Scouting and the Advancement policies. However what unit, District or Council does this. We did a District wide MB training that was to last 90-miutes over 250 counselors were invited and only 5 showed up. How many of you even knew that there was a pamplet teaching units how to train counselors "Merit Badge Counseling Orientation" or a 6 page booklet for counselors called "A Guide for Merit Badge Counseling" (#34532) that is 'recommended' for all MBCs to have? So to summarize... Buddy system good MBC training bad Bob White half-good but not half-bad 2nd adult at sessions- not required YP policy regarding MB sessions- not existing Your humble servant, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is the deal Laurie, although MBCs are registered with the local council they are not registered members of the BSA. They do not pay a fee, they do not have the same priviledges or protections as registered members. The scout who is meeting with a MB counselor is doing so on his own time. It is not a troop, or patrol event. It is recommended that the scout take a buddy (either youth or adult) to the MB session so that he will have greater personal protection. The BSA recommends to the MBC to have a buddy or make sure the scout has a buddy for the same reason. But since this is a personal activity the BSA has no real authority to tell either party what to do. A unit situation is different. That is a bonafide scout event and is responsible for following the rules and regulation of the BSA. Hope this helps, Bob White

Excellent points Eamonn! Here is a favorite of mine. Rather than name tags we do name tents that sit in front of the participant. Fold a corner to keep them standing up-right all day. On the side that faces the participant we have printed the day's agenda. Bob

If you are looking for cheap flip chart or banner paper try your local newspaper publisher. Ours sells us roll-ends of newsprint for $1 a roll. The rolls are about 36" wide and often 50ft to 200ft long. Markers do not bleed through them, and they are recyclable. Bob White

You are right to be concerned NJ. I PMd Laurie prior to your posting and shared the same concern. If the 18-yr-old was a registered ASM he could not be one-on-one with the scout. However, since he is not a registered adult at this time, and has aged out as a youth member, it is my understanding that he is not in violation of the YP policies. Bob White

OK Terry I have always abided by the rules of this board and will continue to. Bob White

Some good presentation tips to remember for PowerPoint presentations. Light lettering on a dark backgroound is easier to read and mor comfortable for the viewer's eyes. Never use less than 36pt type. Maximum info on a page...3 lines of no more than 6 words each, or 6 lines of no more than 3 words each Limit special effects to rare or never Images should enhance your words not repeat them. Localize the national presentations with local info and pictures. You can copy the template so your new slides look like they are part of national's. Turn the laptop around so that you are facing the audience as you follow the program from the laptop screen rather than turning your back to the audience and reading the projected image. Bob White

How about if those of us involved in training exchange tips on things we use to enhance training sessions or make for better presentations. For instance. If you are at all handy in the workshop or have someone on staff who is, you might try this. I took two panels of masonite and 1 panel of pegboard. Each is 2ft wide X 3ft high and I built a wooden frame around each using ripped down 2X4s (about 1 1/2 X 1 1/2) Then I hinged them together so the fold up against each other. The to outer panels are cover with a lightweight looped outdoor carpet (car upholstery works too). One of the panels is the pegboard. The center panel is fixed with a header board held on with two bolts that will hold a flipchart pad in place. So what I have ened up with is a portable presentation board that has a velcro board (The hoked side of velcro graps the carpet) a pegboard that will display books, woods tools, rope samples etc., and a flipchart for text and illustrations. All of which can be used seen at one time. It has come in handy for a variety of training situations. (a little heavy to carry but well worth it.) So please share your favorite training device or tip. Bob White

There are number of persons responsible for developing character besides parents. The question becomes, to what degree does FOG respect their efforts. You keep avoiding the direct questions FOG, is your real name Al Lundy as you claimed it to be? Yes or no. Are you the same person who posted to this forum as Yaworski? Yes or no. Enough dancing around, muster what character you might possess and answer the questions as honestly as they were posed. The longer you wait, the more apparent the answers become to us. I said nothing about this on this board until you opened the door when you told Dan that you didnt what lies told. Pretty ironic isnt it? Show us how important the truth is to you FOG, answer the questions as a scouter.

Hops it's not a matter of FOG evading the truth. It is a matter of him not having been raised with character or the morals to know how to tell the truth. FOG stole another persons identity in order to gain access to this forum. He posted under that name and said on multiple occasions it was his real name. He is no doubt the same person who was at one time asked to leave this forum for his abuse of posters and for breaking the rules of the forum. FOG has not the courage or character to admit to either. I can wait him out, but I want anyone who reads his posts to understand that it takes more than paying a $10 registration fee to be a scout leader. It takes a commitment to character that FOG has abandoned if he ever had it at all. This is not an attack on FOG, this is a defense from his attack. FOG gives the impression here is here to tell the truth as a counterbalance to my book-thumping. But his entire presence here is based on lies. His lies, and he should to own up to them.

So is that a "yes" or "no" answer to the first question FOG? Did you in fact steal another posters name? What credibility does that kind of behavior say of a scout leader? And what does it say of the people who were responsible for teaching you right from wrong? Still waiting for your brush with the truth. Bob White

I am glad FOG stands by his opinion, now if he would take a couple steps closer to the the truth. Here is what rule 4 is saying. With the exception of youth memebrs all drivers must be 18 years of age and licensed. So a 16 or 17-year-old non-scouter may not drive scouts on a scouting event. If the driver is a registered youth member, they may drive providing there is a 21-year-old or older adult in charge of the trip, and providing they meet a few extra requirements that an adult driver is not required to meet. Bob White

Questioning, You caught me in kind of a bad mood, so be patient, I will be as clear as I can be in my explanation. You say I am kicking your proof to the curb. Howard you have no proof. You have your memory of what you think the BSA was some 50 years ago. You havent one iota of proof. I have no doubt you were an active and dedicated volunteer. But Howard we have active volunteers today who think they know the scouting program, and they havent a clue. Visit any scout forum and you will see examples of well meaning adults who dont even know the basics of scouting let alone the rules and policies of the infrastructure. Unless they learn differently their memories of the program will be as inaccurate in 45 years as they are today. Thats why these forums can be an asset or a liability depending on the authentication of the information being shared. Howard it may be very difficult to read this, but had the BSA known of your avowed homosexuality you likely would not have received those awards you boast of because you would have removed from the scouting program. Im sorry but those were and are the rules. They never changed. I understand that this is an important issue for you, but shouting louder will not make you right. Your recollection of the program does not match the history of the program. Bob White

My Bad.The last sentence in my last post should be "I don't think so." BW

Oops FOG, you quit typing before you finished your last post. You didnt answer the two questions waiting for you. Its just a few key strokes and some character. If you did not steal another persons identity and claim it as your own type NO to the first question. If you are not the same poster who has posted as Yaworski and Zorn, type No to the second question. Dont worry about the uniform or the book or the rules for now. Concentrate on being honest. Do you have the character it takes to be a good scout leader? Will you answer these questions truthfully? I dont so. Bob White