Bob White

Thanks MK now it makes more sense. The BSA does not exclude members of UUA from the BSA. The only restrictions are on the wearing of the uniform and now I believe the UUA is restricted from being a chartering org. But that does not restrict membership. Bob White

The goal of first class emphasis is not to generate more Eagles but to retain more scouts in the program. Units that use it see the difference, units that don't whine that kids have to many conflicting activities.

There is nothing in the Wood Badge program requireing any more cmpouts than the two weekends of Wood Badge. Your wife chose to do those. There is nothing in the Wood Badge course requiring she get too busy for her family or do lots of additional activities. That was your wifes choice. The Wood Badge ticket is what the individual makes it to be. Your wife it seems made some bad choices. There is no black magic in the beads that makes people do things they do not want to do, or things they don't need to do. Your wife chose her activities and her goals. I would never tell anyone that scouting takes an hour a week. Scouting takes as long as you give it. The more you develop as a leader the more you can accomplish in the least amount of time. It still makes no sense if you are out of scouting and your kids ridicule it why you would spend time wanting to discuss it on this forum, You are of course welcome to be here, but it makes no sense. As much as you question the time your wife puts into a program she likes, I question why you put time into something you don't? Bob White

Whatever you choose to use as a theme make sure you check out the BSA safety regulations regarding floats in the Guide to Safe Scouting. BW

Whatever you choose to use as a theme make sure you check out the BSA safety regulations regarding floats in the Guide to Safe Scouting. BW

wonder how all those guys made it to Eagle back when it could take two or three years to make first class. Would that be way back 80-years ago when 98% didn't make Eagle, or last year when 95% didn't make Eagle?

"Bob,Now I'm really confused by your post. "As far as "we can't punish kids for what didn't happen." Of course we can." I thought we weren't allowd to punish kids, period. At least that has been you stance to this point." Ed you have already agreed that the Scoutmaster Handbook says that if a scoutt endangers his safety or the safety of others he should be sent home. You also agreed that the Guide to Safe Scouting says that punishment should include the parents and the unit committee. Why do you have a problem putting these two together? Send the scout home and let his parents and the troop committee determine a course of action. What I said was punishment is not the responsibility of the SM or ASMs. Safety and welfare of the scouts is however. Bob White

Was that the plan in case medical attention was needed, to break camp and have everyone leave? What if you could not transport the person? The only thing that made what you did a good decision was that lack of planning left you little choice. Camping five miles from access to vehicles or communications that could get you professional medical assistance would seem to me to be considered remote or backcountry camping. This type of camping requires more planning for possible emergency assistance. The Sweet-16 of Safety found in the Scoutmaster Handbook says, #10 Planning: Safe activity follows a plan that has been conscientiously developed by the experienced supervisor or other competent source. Good planning minimizes risk and also anticipates contingencies that could require emergency response or a change of plan. I hate to be the wet blanket here but if you are waiting for the accident to take place and then making a plan for what to do about it, then the group is not ready for this type of camping. Remote camping is exciting, interesting and adventurous, but only if you prepare properly. Bob White

Everything you need to know for the advancement requirements are in the Boy Scout Handbook. A boy need only to do what his handbook requires. No more, no less. The Advancement program is governed by the advancement policies of the BSA and they can be found in The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manula, available at you local council service center. The first thing that manual will tell you is that No adult, Unit, District or Council may alter the advancement requirements of the boy's Handbook. The only Boy Scout age requirement is that a boy ceases to advance as of his 18th Birthday. A Scout can achieve the Eagle Rank as whenever he is eligible by meeting the requirements. This can happen as early as 12 although that is not a usual occurence. Bob White PS. Please remove your cap-lock. Posting in all upper-case letters is called shouting, and is considered very rude in electronic ettiquette.

"if I really thought that the true values of the BSA required the exclusion of gays from all units, with no local option, I (and my son) would be gone in a minute." From a press realse from the National Council of the BSA in Feb. 2002 "The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices." The entire press release can be read at http://www.scouting.org/media/press/020206/index.html No one is going to make you leave and I doubt anyone would ask you to stay if it conflicts with your personal beliefs. It's a tough decision, I hope you make the right choice. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am curious Mark, what is your scoutmaster's interest in this? It's really is a pretty cut and dry kinda thing. The UUA does not agree with the BSA's stance on membership restrictions and has said they will teach the scouts that they disagree, and they will not abide by the membership policies. The BSA says that because the UUA will not abide by the BSA policies they will not authorize the UUA awards for wear on the BSA uniform and UUA aasociations and churches will not be approved as chartering organizations for traditional units. I am curious as to how this affects your SMs responsibility to train junior leaders and deliver the BSA program. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have more difficulty understanding NJ's bias than I do the UUA. "the point of view of the BSA, or least one of its apologists" how's that for unbiased? The BSA has offered no apologies and asks for none. The UUA doesnt agree with the BSA's membership rules, that is the UUA's right. The BSA does not have to conform their program to the UUAs beliefs, that is the BSA's right. The BSA controls the BSA uniform. UUA is out of line for telling their members to wear unauthorized awards on a uniform that isn't theirs. What the UUA site does not report is that within the recent past (I believe) the BSA has removed the UUA as an approved Chartering Organization for the Traditional programs.. Membership in the BSA is not a right. If the UUA is unwilling to support the membership rules of the program they do not have a choice as to whether or not they get to sponsor the program. Each side has a right to their opinion. But neither has a right to force their opinions into the operation of the other program. UUA does not have to use the BSA's programs. The BSA does not have to accept the UUA's values. Bob White

The BSA agrees Hops. The Cubbing program is ecouraged to camp often and camp easy. th eidea is to get the boys AND the adults comfortable being outdoors overnight. Bob White

Here's a tip Sager, Rather than do separate bags for each clothing type, pack a chnge of clothes to a bag. So one bag has underwear, a pair or two of socks (if you have liners), a t-shirt and shorts. That way as you put on clean clothes the dirty ones go into the now empty bag. Keeps your pack organized and smelling fresh. BW

Padre, Something occurred to me recently. Why is a guy Who has quit scouting, who is bitter about his wife's involvement, who's kids are bitter about their moms scouting activity, who sees scouting as a wedge in their marriage, why are you monitoring a scouting web-site? It seems really curious. Bob White

I think Eamonn did an admirable job of explaining himself. He admits that better planning would have avoided this situation. A good lesson for all of us to remember. He understands the danger that a scout could be exposed to in such a situation as well as the dangers that he exposed himself to. But the fact is he had a stranded child. In first aid we teach scouts to never move an injured person UNLESS leaving them poses a greater risk to there welfare then moving them. A person with a broken back should not be moved but if he is in a burning building and no one is there to help then you move him however you can, even if you will risk harm. I think Eamonn was faced with a somewhat similar situation with a young boy with no way to get home. Leaving him was a greater risk to the scout in Eamonn's eyes and so since he was alone he risked himself to assist the scout. As he said this was not a usual thing for him and he learned to plan better. It's a good lesson for all of us. Let's watch out for each other on activities and not all drive away and leave a fine leader such as Eamonn stranded alone with a scout. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm glad to hear you havent given up on trying to incorporate the NSP Laura. Without an ASM and a Troop Guide it is expect4ed that you have behavior problems. You take 6 or 8 boys who are used to havin two adults leading their way the whole time and give them no one and trouble is bound to follow. Without a doubt a trained ASM and a responsible TG must be in place BEFORE you try to establish a NSP. The program works but it will require the use of all the leadership elements. Good Luck BW

I wish I could help, but I know of no reason that the a Chartering Organization could be refused if they require this. On the other hand I know of no Charter Organization that ever has requested such a thing. Bob White

I know we rarely agree Ed but my gosh did you have to refer to me as a democrat? Apology accepted. BW

DS and Sager read my mind (lucky for them it's a quick read, with lots of pictures and big type). I would always have a table in the shade where I had a few lengths of rope, plastic craft, some neckerchief slide kits, nature ID books, and Leather stamping tools. We never even mention to the boys what's there, we let them discover it on there own. Sometimes we would have a leader go over and start working on something as bait to draw the curious scout over. If only one or two scouts came over it becomes a nice chat fest even an opportunity to sneak in a SM conference. If a number of boys come over we quietly back away and let them socialize together. I'm with the camp that says finishing merit badges is great but it's not the purpose or goal of summer camp. Camp should be a place to discover and practice the ideals of scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

They built the bridge several years ago Laura, its called teh New Scout Patrol. Unfortunately not every Scoutmaster chooses to use it. Bob White

Excellent advice Matua. Bob W.

Hi Eamonn, For the last 25 years the structure of scouting was shown in the various Unit leader training courses (Cub Leader Basic, Cornerstone, Scout Leader Training, Scoutmaster Basic, Scoutmaster Fundementals) as a pyramid with the youth at the peak and the national office at the very bottom as the foundation. Today it is part of New Leader Essentials and is shown as a target with the youth as the Bulls-eye (the most valuable position) and the other support groups of CO, District, Council and National as the outer rings. As far as anti-gay/pro-religion I think you stated it perfectly. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I would agree that most adults do not understant the structure of scouting. Youth are the highest level of scouting. They are supported by the adults of the chartered organization,who are supported by District Volunteers that include representative of those organizations, who are geographic managers for Council which is made up of more volunteers including representatives from the Charter organizations, Who are supported by regional made up supported by the Region who is made up of other vounteers and representatives from Charter Organizations, Who are supported by the National Council at the bottom level of the scouting structure, which by the way is also made up largely of volunteers from the district and council levels as well as representatives of the Charter Organizations. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

One Hour I hope you will reconsider your decision to quit scouting. I think I understand your frustration with wanting to see the youth in the troop you serve have a real sscouting experience. Boards like this do a lot of good but they can also me misleading. It probaly seems like most scoutleaders do not follow the scouting program as it has been developed and designed. The truth is many do and many don't. The thousands of BSA units across the country and overseas are in a constant flux. You have new leaders coming in some just learning and some thinking they don't need to learn. There are many many experienced leaders following the program and as you have learned here many that don't, Then you have leaders leaving eevry day for many reasons burn out frustration, work, removed. My point is that the make-up of your troop now could change at any time. You can help with that change. It doesn't require you to oust the existing SM . Just by you using the methods of scouting every chance you have when working with scouts or parents, you can make a difference in the life of a scout, and isn't that what you joined scouting for. By using the leadership skills of scouting your behavior and relationship with scouts and parents will be noticable more positive and relaxed than the existing leader's. Slowly others will gravitate to you for your advice and asistance. You may never be SM but maybe you will. The important thing is more people will remember scouting as a positive time in their lives with you there than without you. Don't think you are ever alone. I have met hundreds of scouters like OGE, Matua, D Steele, MK, KWC and others who gladly follow the program. Everyone of them are willing to help you with advice, experience and support. The program and the boys are better with you than without you. I hope you will reconsider. Your friend in scouting, Bob White