Bob White

Depends on the construction of the floor and its condition. I would use a ground cloth if the tent had no floor, a damaged floor or a nylon floor. But some tents have a seamless coated tub floor that wraps up the side. There is really no benefit or advantage to puting a leayer of plastic underneath except to help keep the exterior cleaner (which depending on specific ground conditions you might choose to do). Some will argue that it keeps dew off the bottom so the tent is dryer when yo take it down. But my experience has been that when heavy dew conditions exists, moisture also forms between the tent and groundcloth so you don't really gain anything. So I like ground cloths if they are the right tool for the conditions. Bob White

There are dozens of tents that will work for a troop. Rather than recommend a specific tent may I give you some tips. There are some things that you need to consider. Budget, how much is available, how many tents are needed how bad do you need them? Use, Are you backpacking or pulling the gear from the back of a car or trailer. Different style and different capacity tents have vastly different weight. Environment, what are the temperature extremes that you will be camping in and what is the weather. A 3-season tent is not made to anchor well in snow or structured to hold up under a snow load. 4-season tents are but they are usually much higher priced. (see budget) Design, dome or geodesic shape tents shed wind better than A-frame like the Free Spirit or the timberline. Smaller tents are usually warmer on chilly nights than larger tents. Size, a good rule of thumb is a two-person tent will hold one person and gear, a 3-person tent holds two people and gear, a four person tent holds three persons and gear, Etc. SUGGESTION; no matter what size tent you use NEVER put more than 2 scouts in a tent unless you are willing to accept the fact they wont go to sleep and will make more noise than you want. With two boys in the tent once the first one falls asleep, the party is over. As far as the wind problem with the Timberline, I think I can help. If you look at the plastic yoke at each peak there is a hole that you can pass a line through. These are called storm tie-downs. Take a ten foot line through the hole and stake them out about six feet from the front and back end of the tent. Remember always position a-frame style tents with the back into the wind and not the sides, you will have far less wind resistance that way and the storm ties will easily stabilize the tent through some pretty powerful wind conditions. My sons troop uses a Eureka 3-man 7x7 dome tent that comfortably sleeps two, goes up pretty easily and has wrapped tub floor that eliminates the need for a ground cloth, cost $59. The adults use 10X12 geodesics that could sleep half of downtown Burbank, but we are old guys with bad backs who like their camp cots from time to time. Caught them on special for $90 Hope this helps, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There could be extenuating circumstances as to why they do not like to camp. Perhaps they have not gotten adequate training in how to camp comfortably, perhaps the leaders do not know how to camp, maybe they have never gone anywhere interesting or planned any activities while they were out, perhaps they do not have adequate shelter of cooking gear? I would be interested in why the scouts do not care to camp. It is very likely do take a fixable problem. Bob White

fboisseau is correct. The Board made an error in how it counted MBs. There is no such thing as too many Eagle required badges. BW

fboisseau is correct. The Board made an error in how it counted MBs. There is no such thing as too many Eagle required badges. BW

Buffalo2 I do not disagree that camping is a great activity and I enjoy doing it frequently. I am not saying you are not welcome to you opinion or that you opinion is wrong in any way. But bear with me if you will in order to make a point about scouting. When you say camping is a big part of what its all about can I ask that you describe what you mean by camping, and what it is you think it is all about. Again this is not a test or a trap or in any way meant to start an argument. It is a learning experience for both of us. Bob White

I do not deny what you say wingnut and that is my point. That would have been a good day of scouting whether or not you chose to stay the night outdoors. I oopsed! It is 6 outdoor activities not 5 and I have that showing as the requirement for at least the last 4 years of Quality Unit requirements. BTPS Someone needs to review the Tenterfoot to first class reqwuirement with your leaders. You troop needs to do at least two separate overnight campouts each year along with the summercamp in order to fullfill the advancement requirements for the scouts. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree that summer camp only is not sufficient to meet the needs of the advancement program. I was just making the point that camping is but one activity in the outdoor program and that with minimal camping but other exciting monthly outdoor activities a unit can experience a complete qualit program. I know of troops that camp every month and only ever go to 4 different campgrounds. They do not do 84 outdoor activities in a youths tenure. They do 4 over and over and over again. Just because they camp alot I would not call this a good outdoor program. It is far less important to the goals of scouting where you sleep at night. What is important are the activities you do while awake. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I will offer a different perspective if you will allow me. Camping is just spending the night outdoors in minimum shelter. Camping is sleeping. The scouting program does not have camping as a method of meeting the aims of scouting. The "Outdoor Program" is the method, and you can have an active outdoor program and do minimal camping. The "outdoor program" goal is often misquoted. The BSA does not say an active unit needs to camp once a month. It says you need to get outdoors once a month. Hiking, skiing, cycling, smimming, nature observations, climbing and rappeling, swimming, boating, pioneering, skating, rifle and shotgun, archery, cooking, firebuilding, survival skills,and many other scout skills can be done without camping. If camping in itself was that important, why would the advancement program only require three campouts to get all the way through the Life Rank? If camping was the focus why would a scout be able to complete the camping MB requireement simply by doing one two night campout out each year plus one week at summer camp to qualify? A troop can complete the outdoor activity requirement for the Quality Unit award by doing a week at summer camp and 5 hikes, or other outdoor activities. So it is not sleeping outside alot that makes for a good scouting program. It is having outdoor activities that are fun, active, adventuresome, and monthly. If they happen to sleep outdoors that's fine, but there is far more to the outdoor program than where you sleep (although I personally like to camp). Bob White

Sorry, typo on my part. Non-sectarian is correct. Not belonging to a specific sect but open to al. that does not mean the same as open to those with none. The scout is still expected to have a specific belief in God which he practices and gives service to. Thanks for the catch NWScouter. Bob White

Hi Sager, Here is where I see the problem being. On the Application that the parent must sign is the Declaration of religious principle, it says..."The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefor, recognizes the religious religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward religious training. Nondenominational means "any denmination" not no denomination. The Boy Scout Handbook says that a scout is faithful in his religious duties. The questions arise. What denomination does the scout get hisa religious training through, and how does he explain how he fullfills his duty to God if he does not accept the existence of something he cannot prove(which is the definition of Agnostic)? I'm glad he thinks scouting is fun. But fun is a tool of scouting not the purpose of scouting. If he is not reverent to God and able to provide service to support that oath of duty, then scouting is not the appropriate activity and not being upfront with him about that only sets him up for disappointment in the near future. As far as wher to direct him. If his concern is fun, there are a number of fun activities and organizations for children, many of which have as their sloe purpose to entertain. Remeber it is not just youth who join. It is their parents who must enroll him. Do they understand the religious principles of scouting? Do they understand that his is a value based program which has as one of it's root bases Duty to god and service to God? How do they feel about that? Perhaps scouting is in this boys future once he determines in his heart and mind if he has a relationship to God and what that might mean to him. Bob White

If you are an instructor in training you teach by the syllabus. If outside of training a leader comes up as says I tried the program but isnt working in my unit. You question him and you offer advice to help him to meet the unique situation in his unit. That is absolutely true. I will spend as much time with a leader who is having difficulty understanding or implementing the scouting program as they request or require, as long as they want to learn the scoutign program. But a leader who says they don't use the program and they don't like the methods but is having trouble will get none of my time or my staffs time. We are here to help deliver the scouting program, we work with units and leaders wanting to do the same. My frustration on this board is not with the leades who have questions, I recieve dozens of private messages from posters on this board who need answers but don't want to enter the fray of nay sayers who don't use the program. I cheerfully work with them for as long as they need. I am deeply irritated by those who answer questions with methods and information that is contrary to the scouting program. We are leaders of the Boy Scout program, that is what we should be sharing. Bob White

"There's currently a requirement for one chin up for Tenderfoot." No There isn't. The handbook lists a variety of activities and simply says to practice and show improvememnt. No minimium level of improvement is set and improvement can be measured in other ways besides repetition. Bob White

Twocub you explained it very well as to why the boys explain the oath and law in their own words. But their personal interpretation does not establish the program or it's policies. The scouts are simply being asked to see if they understand the words and their meaning. A lot of these scouts never heard the words Thrifty, or Reverent before this time. If they are saying the words we need to know they understand the meaning. No scout is asked if he knows the policies or purpose of scouting. Scouts are not taught the Mission, aims or methods of scouting. They are invited into the activity of scouting where we as leaders use the methods to achieve the aims to fulfill the mission. As adults we have a responsibility to understand the organization that we are entering our children into. If you don't like the membership rules why would you enter your child into it? The BSA is what it is. Will it ever change? Who knows. But yesterday's scouting and today's scouting say that you cannot be a member if you are an avowed homosexual or atheist. Until it changes that's the program. Dislike if you want, complain to national as much as you want, but as long as you choose to be a member you have an obligation to follow the rules of the BSA. Bob White

Excellent explanatin DS. I love the Country Club comparison. Welcome CrewGirl. If your Aunt would like your assistance I think that's great. If you are going to have direct contact with the Cub Scouts your friend should get the OK from the pack committe. Make sure she tells them you are a youth and a registered member. I hope you have a great time, Bob White

Eagleda "The vast majority are just folks asking for help and ideas to solve different problems." Go back and read nearly any thread most are loaded with tripe about the program doesn't work. " later in the post you suggest I come to you and ask first." I asked that you come ask for my opinion rather than you say what my opinion is, because you grossly misrepresented it. "When did you ever ask leaders why they changed their program?" And there Barry is the crux of my angst. It is not "their" program to change. We, the volunteers of the BSA all signed on agreeing to follow the program, methods and policies of the BSA. Not to change them at our personal will. I quote the resources of scouting to say you don't need to come to an internet forum to get how to suggestions from strangers. The how to of scouting is already established, tested, and ready to share with every volunteer who opens a book or attends scout leader training. I don't want anyone to deliver the program in any manner because I said it should be done this way. I want them to deliver it the way the BSA designed it to be delivered, the way the handbook promises a boy it will be delivered. The way to prove that it is a BSA method is to say here is where the BSA documented it. The problems faced by new scouts is exactly why the New Scout Patrol program was developed. You realize the problem, you define it just as the BSA has, and yet you don't call the solution by name and stress it's use. That makes no sense to me. I didn't turn this thread to me EagleDad, You Did!. I read the post again and Barry you totally misrepresented my views. You said 'this is what Bob thinks' and you were wrong. As far as FOG he brought his problems with him, I had nothing to with it. Look at the first response to the original post in this thread. I didn't say "do what I think". I didn't say 'here is where the BSA went wrong'. I shared with the poster where he could find the scouting answer to solve a scouting problem. I would hope that is what the forum is about. Bob White

I apologize for the use of we on occasion it comes from years as a trainer ansd using we as a fiure of speech to encompas the entire scouting community. It avoids sugesting that there is a them and us between the levels of scouting. Anyone who supports and delivers the BSA program is WE. Returning to the purpose of this thread, I would be good if the parent was told that he and his son are welcome members of the BSA. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

OK here's a radical plan. How about we use the Tenderfoot to First Class fitness requirements along with personal growth opportunities and a fun and adventurous outdoor program to promote fitness and a healthy lifestyle for the scouts to follow? Question FOG, all these out of shape scouts you have...are these the same ones you say in another thread aren't attending scout activities becaus they play on so many sports teams? That seems contradictory. Just a thought, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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So that there is no confusion lets remind everyone that it is 15 days and nights of camping during the two year period prior to the election includihg a six day resident camp. So a troop that has a total of 5 two night weekend campouts in two years along with a summer camp stay would provide enough opportunity for a scout to be eligible for OA. The troop and patrol activities are lead by boys, the scouting program is delivered by adults. Boy lead does not mean adult abdicated. As OGE points out trained adults using the proper leadership styles control the direction of the activities even though the boys lead the activities. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You can expect new versions of Junior Leader training to come from National in the near future. for now I would use the contents of the new Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader Handbooks along with the book "Leadership and the One-Minute Manager" by Kenneth Blanchard Ph.D. Blanchard wrote the section of the Handbooks dealing with the styles of leadership. His book will give you strong tools for explaining the four styles to the scouts. Good Luck, Bob White

My opinion is that my interpretation is more consistent with the true values of Scouting" I am curious NJ based on what information of the original definition of the values do you come to that conclusion. I don't believe scouting ever said "come join us and if you don't like who we are we will change". It has always been, "here is who we are, and what we stand for, if you agree then come and join us". Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eagledad, Your entire post is based on a false premise. Nowhere in the BSA resources or in any post I have ever written on this topic have I said anything that puts advancement before program. The Scout Leader training and all BSA materials state and support a plan that a troop's program should provide the training, activities and opportunities that would allow an active scout to achieve his Tenderfoot to First Class requirements in approx, 12 to 14 months. I have never even suggested advancement above all else. I have begged for leaders to follow the program and the adventure and youth leadership promised them in the Boy Scout Handbook. If you provide the program that the Scout Handbook promises to boys the advancement would happen constantly and naturally The vast majority of posts on this forum are from leaders who want to change the program or complain about the program, when in deed they have never used the program. Why arent more posters asking "how do I make this come alive" rather than "here is what we should kill"? First Class Emphasis is a written plan on how to make the first year for a scout exciting, fun and productive. The methods of Advancement, Outdoors, Youth Leadership, and the Patrol Method all help to extend and develop the program until the scout turns 18. And yet, many leaders on this board dont use it. Instead they flood this forum with complaints that boys dont have good attendance, quit the first year or when they turn 16, dont want to lead, dont know how to lead, don't retain skills. When will they see that it is the adult leader's refusal to embrace the program that has caused every problem they have experienced? The problem is in the mirror, the answer is in the scouting program. I am really disappointed that you would misrepresent me so completely. In what explanation of the First Class Emphasis program or any other post did I ever say advance at any cost? That is not the BSA advancement program and it is not the proper way to deliver scouting. Of course we lose the most boys the first year. Troops that do not employ the New Scout Patrol and the First Class Emphasis Program lose scouts by the droves. It is not a poor program it is that some units impliment it poorly. In the future please be gracious enough to ask my opinion rather than tell it to me. There are about 7 or 8 posters on this board who really know their stuff. They could help others learn how to deliver a real scouting program to boys. But they spend most their posts defending scouting from the vast arrray of complainers who want to change a program they have yet to learn how to do. There are also some very vocal ones that when it comes to the real program are in a complete fog and wouldn't recognize good scouting if it bumped into them. The hope for the others is that they are able to tell the difference, and begin asking for help rather than feed the complainers. D.Steele could you help me down from this soapbox? Thank You, Bob White

"We use the First Class in Less than a Year program (Soon to be "First Class in One Week"!)system" Since that is not a part of the scouting program I am not surprised to hear that you do that. "and we still whine about too many conflicting activities." I am not surprised t hear that either. Bob White